sydneysider Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Hi guys, Have found a Rolex Submariner 5513 at one of my local watch dealers who has a good reputation, he is selling a 5513 1964 model,, curved glass, with a replacement non fliplock oyster band, sorry couldnt take pics, dial seems alright albeit relatively white and not too gilt, crown may have been replaced along the way, all services at Rolex, price asked is 2950 EUROS. he offered to install a more gilt dial (original with matching hands) if i wanted. what do the experts think? ( I know its hard with no pics, but help me out if u can!) If I should go for it, wat dial would be better? cheers, Robbie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 If you decide to go with this one, the original dial to the watch is always best, as well as the other parts. Overall, what condition is this piece in? I am assuming you've seen it in person? Any service history with it? EDIT to add that the above is assuming that the watch is all original. If the dial is a replacement, try to find out who replaced it. This is why I mentioned service records... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvt Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 I would always defer to Uniquitous on all things Rolex but in general i think it is a bit risky buying anything vintage that you do not know 100% as fact where it comes from. It is just so easy to have replacement dials and so on which lower value. The entire thing could be pieced together from various parts for all you know unless you really know your stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star69 Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 way to expensive if it has no papers with it - is it all tritium ? if hands / dial or pearl SL the price goes more down. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Indeed... With vintage, there are many risks. This is why it's so important to buy from a dealer or collector with provenance, reputation, history and expertise. You end up paying a bit more, but the peace of mind is worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydneysider Posted January 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 (edited) yes, i have seen the watch myself. The dealer, whom i trust, states dial is original, may have been replaced at Rolex during a servicing,but it is from Rolex. Watch is from the original first owner but he did not find papers and box (hey, the watch is from 1964!!) I have checked the case, says 5513, as i said the bezel is slightly nicely faded, not grey yet but on the way there, some scratches to the bezel but nothing huge, it looks like a vintage piece is supposed to. The other dial would be original too, does this make a difference?both dials look great but i guess the original is better? how could i check for authenticity of the dial? I have heard these models are getting extremely rare and i thought i might get it and hope for increase in value. Am not looking to have it become a daily beater, have enough others for that:) is the price ok? p.s no service records supplied. Edited January 4, 2007 by sydneysider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Hmmmm... Think we need some pics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvt Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Seems a little risky to me since there are no service records all you have to go on is the guy's word. He may be totally honest but just not know the REAL history himself. This reminds me of something like Antiques Roadshow. You will see some super rare peice of furniture that WOULD of been worth say 20 grand but because it was re-finished it is now worth 2 grand or less. ALL of the value is in the original finish and untouched original feel. As soon as that is changed, even if it looks better, all the value vanishes. My guess is that it is similar with a watch like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydneysider Posted January 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 the problem is i cant walk into the guys shop and start taking pictures. how variable is the price according to different factors? say later original dial vs original dial, etc? is 2950 EURO a high price for a 5513? I have researched and have not found a 1964 model, the later models with white gold indices seem to be going for more and an older model should fetch even more? does the new band affect value? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Absolutely correct, tvt. Value is in the original condition and state- Most importantly with the dial. Some of the value can be retained if the provenance of the dial can be definitively ascertained (i.e. service records indicating that an RSC or authorized agent performed the dial replacement), but overall collectability of the piece is determined by how original the condition is. Now, an exception can be made on a restored piece if all the original parts are accompanied with the watch. And yes... Even in poor condition, original is better than minty new replacements... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 The only last bit of advice I can give... Buy the watch because you like it... Not because it's an 'investment'. Watches make horrible investments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydneysider Posted January 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 ok, but what is the price say for a 5513 in redialed, etc vs a good condition all original piece? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmons3d Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Its a good idea to check the serial number and make sure it matches the date stamp on the inside back of the caseback. For example a serial number of 1,185,XXX would possibly have a caseback stamped IV/64. The model number should also be present above the date stamp, in this case "5513". A good Rolex serial number chart is at: http://www.rolexsamler.dk/gb_serial_numbers.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Its a good idea to check the serial number and make sure it matches the date stamp on the inside back of the caseback. In a perfect world, yes. But this is not always the case... 1) It is common practice that Rolex will replace a caseback with new if the water resistance properties of the old caseback are compromised. 2) When #1 takes place, the old case information is not typically transferred to the new caseback. 3) For cases that are used amongst different model refs, common casebacks may be used. For instance, a 5512 back may be found on a 5513, or vice versa. This practice was more common amongst models like the DJ, but it has been known to happen on models like the Sub, Daytona etc. (actually, on 626x's, this was seen quite often). 4) Casesbacks were produced in batches, and sometimes production references (i.e. III/64, etc) don't always match up with the period correct s/n ranges. So, yes... It's always good to check the caseback numbers, but if they don't match, that doesn't necessarily mean that anything is actually wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Oh.... As for value, it's hard to say what this piece is worth without seeing it. Prices vary depending on condition, how complete the package is, etc; to have any idea of worth, it's best to let the eyes evaluate... What you may want to do, R, is have a look at the one chronomat bought the other day, as well as the one river posted for sale here about a month ago or so (I think?); since you have seen this watch in person, you can compare condition and prices to try to get a better idea if this piece is for you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmons3d Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 So, yes... It's always good to check the caseback numbers, but if they don't match, that doesn't necessarily mean that anything is actually wrong... Very true, but as a collector I would steer clear of a watch where anything didn't match. I would always worry that I had a frankenwatch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Nah... Casebacks vary. Serious collectors (at least the ones I know) don't let the casebacks bother them, even on $60k+ pieces. They're more concerned about the actual case and movement serial matching, which is far more important. EDIT to add that the above anecdote is based on one specific instance of a 6263 with 6265 back; watch is not a standard dial piece). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Caseback mismatch is also a problem with the Mil-Subs (5517) due to the way they were serviced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydneysider Posted January 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 thank you very much for all the input, I have decided to gather some more info before i buy one, you are right, one should buy for what ones likes and not for investment! Will kep you updated, but the current offer i had was gone this morning! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 I believe you're better off buying a watch because you will enjoy it; if it increases in value, even better. But, if you buy a watch as an investment, and it never increases or declines in value, you will hate the watch and look at it as a waste of money and time (even though said watch may be very lovely in it's own right). Now, some of you may be wondering about the caseback discussion above, and I'd like to clarify that matching casebacks are always the preference. However, just because a caseback's numbers differ doesn't automatically make that watch wrong. My point was/is that one final decision shouldn't hinge on the back alone... Especially (but not indefinitely) if the watch is priced attractively as a result and everything else checks out. Consider this- if my collector friend did pass on his 6263 Daytona w/ 6265 ref'd back, he would have passed on a piece with an original and correct 3 color PN dial. That to me would have been an even graver mistake at the price he purchased at. Same goes for MoD 5517 MilSubs. The majority of these pieces have had the backs switched as they were serviced in batches and not properly organized during reassemble (which makes sense- Who would have known these were goig to be collector's pieces? At the time, they were tool watches with one purpose). Even further, some had 5513 ref'd backs and/or cases. If you passed on one of these (with Rolex UK verification) at any price because you were in search of a perfect matching back example, you may be searching for a very, very long time (and maybe never find one...). Now, on the other hand, movement serials and case serials are more of a concern. For example... If you found a 1019 Milguass with a D serial'd movement... That's one that I'd be very suspiscious of (and advise not to buy)... Even if the case and casebacks match... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewightstuff Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 agree with ubi ref the casebacks. these are all over the place on all rolex from the 60s era and a bit either side. i heard third hand from someone who talked with an ex rolex employee who said one had to understand that when they were making these watches they didnt think that people in 40 years time would be collecting them as antiques and debating minute details. they just wanted to shift metal. makes a nice change to the standard rolex answer of, "what do you mean ref inside the caseback, only RSC should ever see inside this" ref this watch you are considering, without seeing it i would still say walk away at that price. its too much for a watch with disjointed history...or potential to have atleast, especially since without wanting to offend you seem to have a bit of learning to do about these before you are a fully armed customer. you dont seem to fully follow even the situation with gilt and non gilt dials for example and havent pointed out the most basic of questions which should have been at the top of the list ie. matte or gloss?, meters first? submariner top or bottom? tritium or not? matching hands and dial? . i paid significantly less (and we are talking a lot here) for a first year issue, all genuine 5513 with cal 1520 in excellent condition from a dealer. id strongly suggest waiting, researching more, especially on timezone (boring for discussion but a myriad of pics and info) and then taking a leap. you will be glad you did with the benefit of being more informed i can assure you. throwing this value on a watch will most likely only end in disappointment as you learn more not sure where you are in the euro zone but www.r-l-x.de is a great place for info too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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