tvt

Thanks for the post The Zigmeister... $600 saved. The thing that made me hold off so long (well two things really) was the obvious over pricing and B.S. of the entire "super rep" concept and the idiotic stick on letters on the rotor. When the thing was first being shown I pointed out that those letters would fall right off, gum up the movement and at the very least look cheap. I was told that I was crazy, that some super epoxy was being used and that for the money I should not complain. Now I feel vidicated... it was a bad idea and they would have been better off having no lettering instead of harmful lettering. I have always maintaned that the best fakes are the simplist ones... they are easy to replicate, easy to service and less prone to break in the first place. Thanks again...

A couple years ago I bought my Dad a fake Submariner because he wanted a change from his genuine Day Date that he has had for 25 plus years. He is used to how a gen wears so he was too rough with the fake and very quickly it needed a new bezel as the original popped out. I had him send it to me and made it VERY clear NOT to take it to a genuine AD. I sent it back to the dealer (River) who replaced the bezel and even senta couple of extras (the original was supposedly a gen insert but I have my doubts). Anyway, cut to a fe months later and now the crystal comes out. Oh, I should say that he was wearing it without the bezel for weeks without ever even noticing! Most normal people are not aware of things like we are but that was a bit silly. So this time around the crystal comes out and he asks me about it. I tell him to send it back and I will try to have it repaired but that he has to be more careful. A couple weeks go by and I never got the watch from him. Guess what? He took it into an AD ignoring everything I told him. Here is the shocking part, they not only repaired the watch and sealed the crystal but they did not charge him for it! When he picked it up they said :Sir, you do know this is a counterfeit watch, right?" He said yes and that it was just a beater watch. They gave it back to him and that was that, not money changed hands and no watches were confiscated. Perhaps they knew he had a genuine Day Date and so they cut him some slack, repairing it locally... I don't know, but it is an interesting and unexpected outcome.

Man am I sick of this topic... now we have not one but TWO massive threads to slog through. The facts are simple: The original post Pug made is absolutley valid and pointed out undeniable truth. Some members agree, others disagree, atthis point no amount of continued debate will change anyone's minds. The dealers were were waiting to respond have responded, we can all draw our own conclusions. A copy of an ETA movement is NOT an ETA movement. Mineral glass is NOT saphire, dim barley cloing hads are NOT Superlume. Aside form that it is all just a dog chasing his tail at this point.

Yea, it's interesting, I posted the same links about a month or two back.

So why screw your buyer? I meamn take the watch back and give the refund or you are just passing the screw job along right? I mean is that any better than what the original dealer did to you?

PKDICK: Your limitation is not that you are not well intentioned or even that you do not understand the scope of the situation, it is that you do not have a base of past experience to draw from. You are in the honeymoon period where it seems as if you are getting all the fun of a genuine for a fraction of the price, and in many ways you are. However you have had your watches for a short period of time, you cannot judge them in any meaningful way. To say you are happy with the Asian movements now is fine, but you may feel differently when they stop working. Some peopel feel it is OK to toss away a $200 watch every year and pick up a new one, others get [censored]. $200 is afterall plenty of money to get some nice store bought watches that will last a long time and can be serviced should you desire, they generally represent a much better value than fakes do in the long run. But that is niether here nor there in context to this thread. It is really simply about receiving what you bought, regardless of price. I don't care if someone paid $1000 for an Asian movement watch, as long as they knew that is what they were going to receive. You are knowling purchasing Asian movement watches. At this point in your education about these things you are happy with them. Should you continue to get more involved you may find that your tastes and expectations change. but as long as you get what you think you are getting I am cool with it. it only veres off course when you start receiving things VERY different from what you paid for.

>>>We are buying reps after all...wheres the problem in rep movements (as long as they work as they should) ?<<< No offense but I am getting a bit sick of this type of question because it has been answered a dozen times or more in this very thread. There is a HUGE difference between buying a copy movement because you like them and paid an appropriate price for it, and being misled into thinking you are buying (and paying more) for a genuine ETA movement. People can argue that the Chinese movements are just as good and other such nonsence but that is NOT what this thread is about. The thread has NOTHING to do with the quality of one movement versus the next. It has to do with a dealer stating a watch has a specific movement, charging (in some cases) a lot more for that privalege, and then sending you low quality crap. This is not ONLY about movements though, if someone tells you a crystal of saphire and then you scratch the hell out of it because it is merley glass you may be a little upset, but you may be a lot upset if that same thing happened and you paid double the normal price in order to get saphire and not glass. Having low expectations about what to expect from a dealer is all fine and good, but it does not forgive them for what in some casses is simply outright scamming.

Yea, they are total crap, but for the prioce what do you expect! In fact they are probably the perfect winders for "replica" watches. It will run for 6-12 months and then become so problamatic you will chuck it... but then you can always buy another one. When you consider a quality three watch winder from a company like Orbiat can easily top 2 grand, $100 for a 4 unit (8 watch) model is pretty good. You could buy a new one every year for 20 years before you hit the cost of a high quality unit.

That may be in Greece but all through Asia (Japan excluded) you will find not only stores but entire malls dedicated to selling nothing but fake goods. Watches, purses, shoes, jeans, electronics, DVDs etc. ALL FAKE. Prices are incredibly low, often quality is incredibly low as well, but they are fun to check out.

>>>An ETA is an ETA, nothing else! Superlume is superlume, nothing else!<<< Right, the point that has been made again and again and yet some people still miss (or ignore) is that knowingly purchasing a fake watch may in fact be illegal (making them certainly is) but you do know what you are buying going in to it. You are not expecting a genuine watch and ending up with a copy. So when a dealer tells you there is a "genuine ETA" in the watch, and charges accordingly, and then gives you a crappy, Asian copy movement, well you were then scammed. Exactly the same as if someone sold a fake watch as a genuine. In a much broader sense I do understand the argument that "This is a business full of liars and cheats and theives because everything about it, front to back, is built on lies and breaking laws. Therefore you should not be surprised when these same scammers scam you." OK, point taken, but then you shoudl simply never buy a watch, get out and call it quits. See, the trouble comes in when someone smiles to your face and acts liek a friend, and then scams you behind your back. I don't believe that EVERY dealer is a scammer and that is why I think there IS the possibility of changing things and getting honest descriptions. We see some of the smaller guys doing that already.

The reason dealers put out misinformation, even though they know people will eventually catch on, is simple... MORE MONEY. Look at this very thread. Even when the lies are called out some people, in fact a LOT of people, for some INSANE reason, simply shrug and say "It's OK to be scammed". Hell, peopel are actuallt arguing about it, saying that, in essence, they EXPECT to be scammed in the world of fake watches and so it is somehow OK. With this attitude why would dealers bother to be 100% truthful? People apparantly will buy the watches even when they know they are being scammed. The Bell and Ross is a great example, it is a very low quality peice with a poor movement and stamped screws and so on. The description is full of lies and yet people buy. They seem to not REALLy want to know the truth so they can make ridiculous posts about how "beautiful" the watch is and how it is "better the the genuine". I think the dealers know that sure, some people will catch on and feel scammed and not buy from them in the future, but MOST buyers will either be ignorant of the facts, or simply not care about the facts, others will be fooled. Why tell the truth when you can sell a ton more with lies?

People have been trying to confirm what movements ETA makes where for a long time. It does not seem to be readily available anywhere and ETA does not spefocy what is made where. So It really becomes a guessing game. One thing people need to remember is that ETA makes many, MANY different models and millions and millions of movements a year. They range from inexpensive basic movements to faitly expensive models. Just because it is ETA does not mean it is superior, however, to bring it all back on topic, if it is advertised as ETA, and priced as an ETA, then the dealers should deliver ETA and not a copy of it.

>>>Just to follow up on TVTs statement, to be deemed "Swiss Made" the movement must have 50% of it's value manufactured in switzerland. Thus on a $50 movement, replacing one screw with a $25 Swiss manufactured screw is enough to make it "Swiss Made". Not saying that's how it necessarily is, but it's possible. <<< I am not saying this is incorrect, but where did you get this info and have you cross checked it? I ask because generally speaking it is not the value but the actual number of parts that determine the origin of a product. This gets more and more confusing as the world gets more and more global in it's economy. For example BMW X5s are made in the US, however the engines are assembled and made in Germany, then shipped to the U.S. to be installed. Though the engine is very expensive it does not make up enough of the total parts to make the car "German". The engine is German, the car is made in the U.S. But again, Swiss or not does not matter to me at all, hat does matter is genuine ETA or not. If a watch does not have a GENUINE ETA movement than dealers should not advertise it as such, it is really just that simple.

I think the threads you are refering to are NOT about being unhappy and they certainly are not about flaws in the watches. They are talking about being lied to, pure and simple. That is VERY different than a flaw in a watch and it does not mean anyone is unhappy, simply that they want accurate descriptions of what they purchase.

Just to clear the noob question out of the way: It is likely (though who klnows these days) that "Swiss ETA 2836" movements are in fact genuine ETA, thoughy not Swiss. This gets into a whole speculation game that NO ONE really knows the answer to. Not movement experts like The Zigmeister, not those of us who have been around for years, probably not even the dealers. This is as close to "fact" as we get here: ETA owns factories in Asia, they produce genuine ETA movements though they cannot be labled "Swiss" because they are produced in Asia. There is debate over whether the parts are sent back and assembled in Switzerland and then qualify as being "Swiss" but I personally do not believe that to be the case because to be officially called "Swiss" a movement must have the majority of parts MADE in Switzerland, and then be fully assembled in Switzerland. MAYBE some parts are made in Asia, others is Switzerland and then the movement is assembled in Swizterland out of all of these various parts... thus qualifying as "swiss" but who knows. What we thik we know and people more or less agree on is that the ETA movements that dealers call "Swiss ETA" are in fact genuine ETA but coming out of the ETA Asian factories. I do not believe any of them are "Swiss" in any true sense of the word, but again, speculation. So it is quite likely that the low end, cheap ETA movements such as the 2836 are in fact genuine ETA, just not SWISS ETA... but made to the exact same quality. I wish dealers would simply cal them "Genuine ETA" instead of Swiss but I doubt that will ever change. Now, when you get to higher cost ETA movements such as the 2892 or the 7750 then you see the shift happen. Most all fakes do not house genuine ETA movements at this level but rather Asian copies. In the case of the 7750 the dealers tend to be honest for whatever reason. You will see then lebeled as "Asian 7750", "Asian copy 7750" or sometimes, confusingly, "Asian ETA 7750". The last one would really be a lie because there is nothing ETA about the movement and it im[plies that it is made in an Asian ETA factory, which it is not. Confusing enough? When it comes to the 2892 movement the dealers often flat out lie, calling them "ETA 2892" or even "Genuine Swiss ETA 2892" and in fact they are copies made in China, not having ANYTHING to do with ETA and not built to the same quality. I USED to think that you could tell when a watch had a gen movement or not based on cost, but dealers sometimes charge more and tell you it is genuine, when in fact it is not. And the "Seagull" movemnet which is the Chinese copy of the 2892 tend to suck and break. It is all a confuysing mess and the dealers are not equal across the board. Some movements they use proper terms and others they use deceptive terms and it becomes harder and harder to know which is which.

>>>if the hands go round and tell the time consistently......what the [censored] does it matter what's inside.....<<< Well it matters to me because the hands DON'T go around and tell time consistently in the case of the "Seagull" and I was grossly overcharged for it. If the dealer had told me a "Seagull" was inside I would have paid a lower price and taken a chance. Even following your basic guideline of "who cares as longas it works" this movement fails.

>>>@Ted....ever the optimist.........please DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.....!<<< Not putting words in your mouth Neil, you misunderstood what I said, or perhaps I said it poorly. I was saying that the dealer I purchased the wacth from (NOT yourself) was a drop shipper who never saw the watch. I know that you inspect watches prior to selling them. Earlier you made the point that some dealers (again, not yourself) were simply passing the specs on that they were given by the maker. Sorry for any confusion, I was just trying to credit you for the points you originally had made.

I am no expert on movements but I have been collecting these for a long time and I am fairly certain (and The Zigmeister just confirmed this) that there in fact ARE copy (ie: FAKE, made in China, nothing to do with ETA at all) movements being stamped (ETA). Now whether these are 100% fake or somehow sourcing base plates and then adding Chinese parts I cannot say, what I can say is that these are NOT genuine ETA movements however the are commonly sold as such. So you have these totally bogus, totally non genuine "ETA 2892" movements (some even stamped ETA) being sold as gens. Like Rob I have a 007 Bond with a totally dead piece of junk "Seagull" in it that I now need to replace with a gen movement. I would even be OK with this but the dealer flat out lied to me and told me through e-mail that it was in fact a GENUINE ETA 2892. Unlike some previous examples (cheap watches being billed with a 2892) this watch was NOT cheap. It was priced accordingly to the fact that it supposedly had a genuine movement... so I was robbed. I started a thread awhile back called something like "What was your biggest rip off" and I told this story as my own. I meant that thread to cover the ground that this thread is doing much better. In other words dealers ARE lieing to us just as they would lie to anyone else. We do not neccesarily have the relationship with them we may hope or think we have. In this case perhaps the dealer (a drop shipper) honestly did not know. As TTK points out he was probably simply passing info on from his source and he never actually even saw the watch... fair enough, but the end result it still the same. Finally, I have never seen ANY fake with a genuine ETA 2892 in it, I thought I had but I was wrong. I would stay far away from any "2892" based watch because aside from being a copy movement inside they are CRAPPY movements that do not seem to last beyond a few months... even after service.

I'm sure most would toss in at least one PAM< probably a 111 just to cover the basics.

I keep reading posts from members who say, in essence: "It is OK that we are lied to in some ways because we are generally smart enough to decipher the lies, we don't really care if noobs don't fully get it, and these are just fake watches anyway so why be concerned." I must say I just cannot understand this line of thinking on any level. Listen, if the fact is that this is a business built on lies and there is just no way to separate the lies from the truth then OK, I can accept that as a fact but still hate that we are being lied to. I woudl never just say "Being deceived is OK, go ahead and lie to me." Why would I do that? How is that a good thing or how does it help us in any way? I am not talking about the odd ball things like calling something "Ultimate" or even the whole "swiss" thing. Rather I am talking about flat out lies. Not only calling a movement an ETA 2892 when it fact it is a copy, but then charging a LOT more based on the idea that it is a gen. I am talking about hundreds of dollars being charged as a premium for genuine movements when those movements are in fact NOT in the watch. There is no amount of expertise or experience that can help you navigate through flat out lies. As a community why would we say "it's OK to lie to us and say you are selling us something you are not.". Would we accept being sent a submariner if we ordered a Plate Ocean? No, because that is not what we bought, so why would we accept being sent a junk movement lie a "Seagull" when we paid for a gen 2892? There is a difference between understanding that the fake watch world is rife with corruption and lies and accepting those lies with open arms.

We have already covered what is the indeniable truth, that this is a hobby or business built on lies and theft. That is an indeniable truth. the watches and everything they represent are illegal and untruthful. We would all like to pretend that we have a secret little in and that the dealers are our friends, of course by and large they are not. They want money from us like they want money from anyone else. If we are more likely to buy because we think there is an ETA 2892 in that baby then they will tell us there is on in there. If we say we may pay extra for a saphire crystal then great, that is what they will tell us they have. So although we may all be fools for wanting to trust people who are more than happy to lie to us and take advantage of us, and we should know better, that does not mean that they are still lieing to us. In other words this entire topic boils down to one question; are the dealers being truthful with us? The answer is no, they are NOT being truthful. That is fact. Now if you want to debate that it is OK to lie because afterall we are all lieing and the entire conceit of owning fake watches is buitl on lies... well fine, have that debate, but the core facts still remian.

>>>please show me where a dealer has labeled a movement as swiss ETA and it has turned out to be asian copy?<<< It is COMMONLY done all the time sadly. As I mentioned the old facotry Bond SMP was widley advertised as having a genuine swiss ETA 2892. Now I could see labeling it that even if it was, in fact, made in an Asian ETA facotry. But what was delivered was a pure copy, nothing at all "ETA" about it. It was decpetion and lies, pure and simple. Same can be said for various Unitas movements, often if not always labeled as Swiss or "genuine" when again there is nothing genuione about them, they are simply copies. The loist goes on when you start looking at the details, things like "genuine AR" when in fact there is no AR, Saphire versus mineral and all of that... all commonly lied about. I have no problem with a watch having an asian movement or what have you, I just want to know what I am buying. If you tell me a watch has a genuine ETA 2892 and then give me s watch with a "seagull" copy in it you have lied to me just as much as telling me you were selling me a gen Rolex and then sending a fake. it is exactly the same thing.

Nonskeder makes some excellent and very true points, as does Pug. What this shows is sadly a sort of loss of inocence. People want to fool themselves, not just in believeing that these, generally speaking, poorly made and inespensive watches are somehow equal (or even better than) the genuines they ape, but also in believing that the dealers are somehow our buddies. We like to think that we are the smart folks, in a little private club getting the REAL low down on these goods. We are getting the truth while the poor idiot masses are oput there going to Perfect Swiss web sites and getting robbed. Well the truth is tha WE ARE THE IDIOT MASSES. You see, we are accepting lies, we are fooling ourselves, and we are somehow willing for forgive this deception simply because we are being ripped off less badly than some others may be. A lie is a lie is a lie... period. If you tell me a watch has a genuine ETA 2892 in it, and in fact it has a cheap Asian copy, then you have lied. There is no secret code there, there is now wink and a nod, it is a lie so a fake watch with a fake movement can be sold for more than it otherwise would merit. Nonskeder has said it, it begins with a lie, it ends with a lie, and we buy then to lie. Lie to ourselves, lie to others, whatever... all the same. So while I agree 100% with Pug that we ARE being deceived I also agree with Nonskeder that asking a liar to just stop lieing to us because we want to have special inside connections, well that is a pipe dream. There are those few dealers who state facts, warts and all, and it is pretty damn easy to find them. The others, the ones who lie to our faces and laugh at our backs... they will never change. So you can choose to still buy from them, and you can choose to try and decipher what is truth and what is fiction, but you cannot deny the facts that you are being lied to every bit as much as the guy on the street corner is. And BTW, the vaunted old factory Bond SMP that were sold as having genuine ETA 2892s in them are NOT running well. It would not exactly be impressive if a watch managed to run 2-3 years anyway, but that is not even the case. Mine dies shortly after getting it, I have had conversations with The Zigmeister who said his dies and the movement was "junk" which he replaced with a gen, and I know three othersd who have also had the movement die in less than 6 months. And remember, we paid for a gen movement.

Pug is, of course, 100% correct. This has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time and yet when someone mentions it on a board it brings all sorts of controversy, why is beyond me. There are simple facts, things are being described as something they are not, period. I am not even talking about somewhat vaugue terms like "swiss" but rather out right deception. Calling a movement a "genuine ETA" when in fact it has NOTHING to do with ETA, was not made by them in any factory and certainly does not run or operate as well as a genuine (if at all). This is just black and white stuff here, no grey area... it is a lie designed to deceive people so more watches can be sold... that simple. I have found that it has gotten much worse actually over the years. 5 years ago dealers were not deceiving people on the boards anywhere near as blatently. Sure, the terms "Swiss" and the like would be used but never just flat out lies about what was inside the watch. And of course this was LONG before the [censored] terms like "1:1" were ever used. I have seen "1:1 ultimate perfect" watches that are junk, so far from the genuine in size, materials and quality that it really is a joke. What bothers me the most is that there will always be a chorus of people who claim that any individual watch is "perfect" and "just as good or better than the genuine" and so on. These people are buying into the lies, they believe what they have been told and when they buy junk they do not even know that they have been deceived. As Pug mentioned I thought the purpose of boards like this was to help each other and cut through the crap, instead it often turns into people arguing about how it is OK to be lied to because we all know we are being lied to. I just don't understand that view point and I think if one looks around they will plainly see that a LOT of people don't seem to "get" that they are in fact being blatently deceived.

What can I say, I am a sucker for cool looking cases and things of that nature. Check out the winder here: http://www.orbita.net/pages/12360.htm What you cannot see in the photos is that is has carbon fiber panels on the front and top, the wood is REALLY nice and the inside is leather lined. When you have watches in there they sort of look like they are floating in space and the actual winders are all high end, bearing and all and very quiet. Now if I could only get one that works! Now for the ultimate check this out: http://www.orbita.net/pages/12912.htm