tvt

Obviously that is a killer watch and wonderfully put together and all, and in fact it has much, MUCH more in common with the gen than any fake. Hell, I don't think you have any "replica" parts on it whatsoever... so obviously it is an exception and not really the rule by any stretch of the imagination. On a slightly different note I can get a brand new genuine SS Daytona for $9K so if you are seeing them USED for 11K I would steer clear of that store. Now I admit, I would be waiting close to a year for that watch so maybe people are willing to pay even more of a premium to get the used one now... but that is just stupid.

>>>I'm surprised, you of all people, having visited Guangzhou, would know first-hand because of the "millions & millions" of watches manufactured out of that City, there is not going to be the kind of QC you'd expect from a genuine watch, swiss or seiko. <<< Absolutley Omni, I certainly undertsand and agree with that. I do NOT expect higher QC just because a fake is more expensive. We both know that you can easily spend $1,200 on scam sites and get total crap in return. Those torbilons that were floating around a few years back were just horribly made and virtually all of them seized up within months (we all know those stories) and yet they cost 1-2k! So I did not mean to imply that higher costs equate to better quality... that is something that sadly will likely never happen in any sort of "replica" business model. What I was attempting (quite poorly I guess) to say is that the lack of QC of these watches in general kills me. It is always the limiting factor to me, NOT the money. I would gladly pay much higher prices if I felt that quality would follow but it simply does not and since I am not a tinkerer or a watch maker of any sort when these go bad on me I am left with junk. Or if not junk I am faced with spending more money to fix defects.

>>>The following watch is not genuine, but I challenge you to find a flaw<<< Frankenwatches don't count... and I would assume the flaw is on the inside.

>>>That is silly; I know people with millions in their portfolios who still collect fakes.<<< And so do I, but that is not my point. My point is that is you say "I can afford a genuine but..." then you are just fooling yourself. I am not sure how to properly get my point across and I apologize for doing a poor job here, I reccognize that.

When you are the king of the hill everbody is out to take you down a notch, that is just human nature. I am not saying that Rolex are or are not good movements, simply that any industry leader will endure much more harsh (and often unfair and unfounded) attacks than any of it's competitors. I am not sure of any idustry in which the sales or prestige (or both) leader is not under CONSTANT attack from all those around them. "Mercedes are just expensive Chryslers!" and so on. I am sure there is some truth to all of those arguments, and a lot of bitterness and jealousy as well.

Thanks for the info Omni. See it is this exact kind of thing that kills me about fake watches. You are lucky that you have an easy fix and a trustworthy relationship to take care of the problem, but most of us do not. Getting a watch with the second hand floating around the inside of the case does not exactly inspire confidence about the quality of the watch does it. Especially when you factor in the extremely high premium being paid for this particular watch.

>>>1. It has to be a model I really, really want but it is too expensive to get a genuine one, meaning $6000+ price range. Although I can afford it I don't think I'd be willing to buy watches in that price range no matter how much I like them 2. It has to have swiss movt. 3. It has to be 1:1 with no flaws. <<< 1. They you CAN'T afford them. I don't buy the idea that someone would just never spend over X ammount on princaple or something. You can afford it or you can't. If you have to think about it or wonder if it is a wise way to spend your money or anything else then you CANNOT afford it. Simply having the money does NOT mean you can afford something. 2. OK, lots of fakes have Swiss movements but see other threads for the confusion on this, it is quite likely that any particular "Swiss" movement has never actually been to Switzerland. 3. Then you will NEVER buy a fake because NONE and I mean NONE are flawless 1:1 watches. There simply is not such thing, a perfect 1:1 flawless watch is called a genuine.

Arrived with the second hand just loose in the case! Is that what you said or did I misunderstand?

>>>anyway 2. Its not quite the same thing, Gen ETA movement @300 bucks - your out 300 bucks, selling a 200 PO as a 2000 your out 1700 Difference between a misdemeanor and a felony We should be getting what they advertise- but i concede that i have to learn their language. its the black market - you have to know the lingo if you got a crappy seagull movement, i say again as i said above - i would ask for a replacement and if i didn't get one i'd raise wholly [censored] - even if it was 1 yr later.<<< Well to me it really IS the exact same thing. I don't care how much someone is having stolen from them, stealing is stealing. If you tell me a movement is a gen ETA and it is not then you have lied and stolen from me, just as if you lied to me and sold me a fake watch as a gen. I cannot forgive someone because of the dollar ammount involved. I DO know the lingo. I have been involved with these things for years and even so if someone flat lies to you there is no lingo to decipher... it is just a lie. Lingo is understanding that a "Swiss ETA" may not really be from Switzerland, telling someone they are getting an ETA movement and then sending a crappy "Seagull" is just fraud. As for demanding my money back, I am afraid that ship has sailed. The watch is over 2 years old. I generally do not wear my fakes all that much. Odd as it may sound I know I am not alone on this. I COLLECT them. I also colelct gens and those are what I tend to wear. So I got this particular watch, wore it a few times when it was brand new and then put it in my case. Recently I was talking to The Zigmeister and he told me that these have fake movements, I checked and sure enough it was fake and I realized I was ripped off. MAYBE the dealer did not know, who knows... but I know how it was advertised and I know what I got, and they do NOT match up.

I'm surprised that there is so much debate here, to e it is just incredibly simple: Dealers should offer ACCURATE and non confusing descriptions of what they sell, and then actually supply exactly what they described. Period, that simple. There is no reason to use the term "Swiss ETA" instead of simply "ETA" for several reasons. First of all, as evidenced in this thread none of us REALLY know jack about where these things are coming from. They may or may not me completely made in Asia, they may or may not just be parts made in Asia and then assmbled in Swizterland, they may be gold, they may be silver, they may be all sorts of things. In the end we are making somewhat edcated guesses but guesses nonetheless. We do know that ETA has genuine factories in Asia but I guess we don't know EXATLY what is coming out of there. I always thought that ETA in fact made COMPLETE movements in Asia and elsewhere but when push comes to shove I can't point to any facts that say that. I somehow have it in my head and that is NOT valid proof. So at the end of the day we simply do not know. So a genuine ETA shoudl simply be called "genuine ETA" and leave it at that. Maybe it is Swiss, maybe it is Asian, maybe it is somewhere in between but if it is a genuien ETA we can assume a certain level of quality of ease of repair is there. As for the "Seagulls" and that stuff it is crap, they are poorly made accoriding to The Zigmeister and my personal experiences confirm that. In addition they have been sold as "genuine ETA" and they are NOT that. So thesemovments should be labeled something like "COPY of 2892" just as Asian copies of the Valjoux should be labeled "COPY of 7750". I just think you should get what you pay for, period. Charging someone for a genuine ETA and then selling them a fake is really no better then selling a completed fake as a gen... same exact thing.

How can we STILL be discussing the Asian ETA thing? in this very thread we have discussed it to death... ETA has plants in Asia and elsewhere and they make genuien ETA movements that are NOT made in Switzerland. Now there has been some debate about them being sent back to Switzerland and so forth but I doubt that our dealers would be getting those and I also think it muddies the waters here. The point we need to know is that it is quite likely that even the genuine ETA movements we get are in fact made in asia. Calling them "Swiss" ETA is confusing and needless, hell, even if they actually came from Switzerkand it is meaningless and ETA is enough. A genuien ETA should be of equal quality regardless of it's origin, as long as it is a legit genuine ETA (not your crap Seagull or the like). Now in terms of "made isn Switzerland" or "Swiss" not meaning anything as far as the Swiss government in concerned I must disagree. I DO agree that just because something is made in Switzerland does not mean it is quality. They have plenty of crappy Swiss made products just as any country does, however the Swiss government is EXTREMELY serious about monitoring what can be stamped as "Swiss made" and what is not. Now I cannot tell you off the top of my head the exact percentafge of parts that must originate from Switzerland in order to qualify for that "Swiss" mark but it is the mass majority and the government takes is deadly serious... more seriously than any other country I have read about. This is why I doubt the idea of Asian made ETA movements being sent back to Switerland to be certified or what have you. I am not saying that this is not the case, I really do not know, but simply sending a completed movement to Switerland to have it checked would NOT qualify it to be Swiss made. Even finishing it or what have you would not qualify it. The mass majority of the parts themselves (like 80 or 90 % I think) need to originate in Switzerland to earn that title. Again, even with that title does not mean it is quality, simply that it was made in the country. So I agree that the idea of "Made in Switzerland" automatically means best quality is a misnomer.

Sorry for any misundertanding about your quote The Zigmeister, my fault. As The Zigmeister pointed out he has had issues with the "Seagull" as I have as well and I think MANY others have. I know nothing about the quality of these things but The Zigmeister says they suck and the one I own crapped out with VERY little wear. So here lies the rub and why I cannot buy the "they are just replicas" argument: i paid extra, a LOT extra because I was told I was buying a genuine ETA 2892 movement. teh entire premise of why the watch was so expensive was because it had a gen movement, a movement which costs hundreds on it's own, a reliable work horse movement which would be easy to repair, in fact the same movement the gen has! OK, great, so I paid for something I did not get, I was flat lied to. This is NOT the same as buying a fake watch KNOWING you are buying a fake. It would be like buying a gen and being ripped off and sent a fake instead. I do not know if the dealer intentionally lied to me or if he himself did not know but the bottom line is that something was billed as a genuine swiss ETA and with was not genuine, not swiss and not even an ETA. This STILL bugs the hell out of me as I never would of purchased the thing for the price I paid had I known the movement was fake, and crappy at that. I now have to locate a genuine, spend hundreds more and then have The Zigmeister replace the thing for me at yet additional costs. None of that was advertised when I bought the damn thing.

>>>Other than this one measly comment, I think TVT did a fantastic job, kept his composure and covered it all in wonderful detail. <<< Glad I got it right though just to clarify one thing The Zigmeister, I was NOT the one who said the apparently incorrect statement that no gold ETA movements come from Switzerland, that was someone else. What I said was that the RUMOR is and that most people seem to think that the gold movements are from Asian ETA plants while the silver ones are from Switzerland. HOWEVER I also said that this has never been confirmed. If there is one thing I have learned in my years of dealing with this hobby is that VERY few people actually know what they are talking about on ANY level. Most people (and I admit I have been guilty of this as well) simply read something and then parrot it back as fact. So somewhere alomg the line someone wrote that gold=Asian ETA and silver = Swiss ETA, and since then it has been repeated so many times that it has almost become fact. I do not work for ETA, I have never inspected Swiss or Asian ETA facilities so I have NO CLUE what the truth is. I do know that almost all the fakes we see have GOLD ETA movements and I SUSPECT that they come from Asia simply because I think it would be much easier for the Asian makers to get movements from within Asia as oppossed top Switzerland, especially at the volume we are talking about. I am not sure that it really matters if a genuine ETA movement is made is China or Switzerland but I must say it is likely misleading for dealeras to continue to call them "SWISS" when in fact they probably are not. Simply calling them "ETA" sends the same point that it is a quality and genuine movement, no need to through in a possibly inaccurate point of origin. "Swiss" has become some sort of sign of quality among the dealers. By saying "Swiss" you are in essence saying "genuine". "Swiss ETA" equals "GENUINE ETA". ell I just assume drop the damn "Swiss" crap as it is inaccurate and ultimatley meaningless. Finally I am glad you modified your lisat comments by saying that the "Seagull" copy of the 2892 was the exception to the rule because those movements are COMMONLY sold as genuien ETA and they simply are NOT. I feel that I have been misled in the past by a very well known and respected dealer whom I have purchased many watches from. He sold me a copy of the 2892 and I was told it was genuine... and paid more for it. Today it does not work or works in a very sportatic nature. So it is a cloudy market place. ETA means ETA unless you are talking about the 2892. Swiss means genuine and not really from Switzerland unless you are talking about a "Genuine Swiss 7750" in which case it IS swiss and so on. VERY confusing and needlessly so.

No, "Swiss" or even "ETA" does NOT mean the same thing here or in the "rep" world in general as it does in a genuine watch AD. Does it suck... YES! Does it make sense... NO! Is it somehow unique to the dealers here... ABSOLUTELY NOT. In fact the dealers here are much LESS guilty of it than most scam sights that list all sorts of crazy ass crap, most of which are out right lies (hand crafted in Switzerland, as good as genuine, etc.) If you have been around the fake watch world long enough you know the origins of these terms (Swiss, Japanese, Chinese, etc. which used to be grade A, B, C, etc.). All meaningless drivel designed mostly to confuse unsuspecting and uninformed buyers. Over the years sadly a lot of these terms have sort of stuck or have been modified and it is VERY confusing. The bottom line is that very few of the watches sold here or anywhere fake watches are sold containe actual genuine SWISS made ETA movements. There ARE exceptions, you can get genuine Swiss made 7750's and maybe a coupel other movements from our dealers but they are few and far in between, and MUCH more costly than the average fake. So it is true that when a dealer says "Swiss ETA" it is at best an authorized ETA movement produced in Asia from an actual ETA plant. At worst it is something liek the "Seagull" that simply has nothing to do with ETA or being Swiss. So if we are to be honest with ourselves the dealers ARE misleading peopel by using such terms as "Swiss". the thing is that they are probably, in most cases, NOT trying to lie to us but rather using poorly defined terms that have evolved meaning over years. To those who have been around long enough they can decipher the code, to most others it is confusing, misleading and border line dishonest. I would rather see terms liek this: Swiss ETA would mean just that, a SWISS made ETA movement. Asian ETA would again, be just what the name says, an actual ETA movement made in an authorized but non Swiss ETA factory. Asian copy XXX would mean a COPY of a particular movement. The term ETA should NOT be attached in any way. So you would have terms like "Asian COPY 7750" This would let us know what the movement was based on but avoid any possible confusion with it being gen in any way. A Myota would be called a Myota, simple. Finally the low end Chinese movements should simply be called "Generic Asian movement" or something similar. What we shoudl NOT see and what honestly does bother me are terms like "Swiss ETA" applied to an ETA movement made in Asia, Butr worse yet are when a dealer will say "Swiss ETA 2892" and it ends up being a flat out COPY of that movement... now THAT really is dishonest. Again, I think most of this stems from a twisted and long and convoluted past but maybe it is time the slate is wiped clean and we get actual factual terms used in which one does not need to be an expert to interpret.

Interesting, somewhat unique styling and I liek the sort of deco look, but I would NOT purchase one myself as I simply would not find time to wear this particular style too often.

Well you are missing an important category! You are breaking it down too simplisitcly. Yoiu are saying a movement is either a 100% SWISS ETA movement assembled in Switzerland or it is a fake, a copy, a Chinese movement or whatever... but the fact is that there is a THIRD category which stradles the two. That is official, acyial REAL ETA movements that are made in Asia. These are 100% official ETA movements that are made in Asian ETA owned plants. THESE are the movememnts you generally find in the 'Swiss ETA" watches sold by dealers here. So to further answer your question virtually NONE of the watches actually have SWISS made ETA movements, however MANY have Asian made GENUINE ETA movements. These are exactly the same as the Swiss made ones though may or may not varry in color (this has never been confirmed but most think Asian ETA movemenst are gold while Swiss ones are silver). Then you get into the outright fraud areas such as these "seagull" movemets which are copies of ETA 2892 movements. These are often sold as "Swiss ETA" when in fact there is NOTHING either Swiss or ETA about them other than the fact that they are COPIES of those movements. I have had some bad luck with them and I have also been ripped off by buying them under the guise of them being Swiss when simply put they are NOT. Now when it comes to the ETA 7750 for some reason dealers are honest on that front, they call them ASIAN 7750's and those again are COPIES. They have nothing to do with ETA and nothing to do with being Swiss. They are copies of the genuien movement, fakes. So it gets very comples but to re-cap: Actual SWISS made ETA movements... very few in fakes. Most often when you do see them they will be genuine Swiss 7750's and sell for a lot. Official ETA movements made in Asia...these are common in fakes. They are NOT copies but actual honest to God ETA branded and manufactured movements but NOT made in Switzerland. ETA has plants all over the world. Cheap Chinese movements... these are also very common in most fakes though rarely sold as anything other than what they are. Dealers are generally honest about watches that contan these. "Sea gulll" Swiss 2892 movements are FAKES. They are not Swiss, they are not ETA, they are simply copies and I HATE that dealers will refer to these as "Swiss ETA" because frankly that is a lie. 7750 movements. You can sometimes see genuine swiss made ETA 7750s being used but you usually see fake copies of them. Some people think they are OK movements, I generally do not like then as they have more problems than any other. Again for whatever reason dealers tend to be truthful about these being Asian but they still call them "ETA" which is confusing. They will say "Asian 7750" or even "Asian ETA 7750" which is misleading. You need to really learn your way around a bit because there are odd customs in referring to different movements and some of it could be construed as lieing.

Re: Rolex being made in Asia. I don't know how or where this rumor got started but it is NOT true. Rolex movements are in fact assembled in Switzerland just as you would think. Also, the Asian made ETA movements are NOT sent back to Switzerland for inspection, they are made in Asia and shipped right from there to fulfill orders, they are however made to the same standards as the Swiss ones.

The short version is that is has become more confusing recently with most dealers calling certain movements ETA which are actually copies of ETA movements and that is a problem. Hoever MOST ETA movements as advertised are the real deal... it is only when you get to the higher end movements like the 7750 that they start to become fakes. The guy is correct I am sure that the MASS majority of fakes overall have cheap chinese movements, but most that you see here advertised as ETA are in fact just that... but it is complicated for sure.

Was at AD dealer today and I can confirm that without any doubt the gold bezel STAINLESS hand version exists. I held it and had it on my wirst 3 hours ago. Also, I was mazed at the variety of other combos they had, they had atleast SIX different versions of the watch in stock, several of which I had not seen before on the site.

Because I look at these as mainly a fun hobby and the watches as novelties I am not winning to drop real cash on them (for the most part). For gens I am much more willing to spend large cash. So for fakes I spend in the hundreds, gens no set limit. I think the most espensive fake I have bought it probably in the $500- $600 rane, but more realsitic to me is $350-ish.

Well there are a couple of fundamental truths here: 1) Most people will buy fromt he cheapest legit dealer. All things being equal if dealer A if significantly cheaper than dealer B he will sell more. 2) $450 for an Asian 7750 based watch is a lot. Based on prices we are used to seeing it is quite a bit more and that has freaked some people out. 3) The Big Bang may not have a lot of common flaws but is still not 1:1 perfect and all of that, if nothing else because of the movement. So some people will buy from Angus because they appreciate his GREAT communication on the boards. I don't know if the input we gave him really made any difference or not but it is great to have that line of communication open. I think other dealers would do well by more open communication of this nature. But at the end of the day MOST people will buy from wherever if the cheapest and I don't think any $450 Asain based watch will but a huge seller. Now, drop the price $100 and it will FLY off the shelves. I don't know if it can be sold for that or anything else but I am willing to bet that the first dealer to get it that low (if it is possible) will sell a TON of them.

That may be the case with some 187s but the mass majority of watches get better and cheaper the older they get. Look at the 1950 or just about ANY other model. They first come out with all sorts of flaws and cost a fortune, then as generations go by the flaws get corrected and the price plummets. Now this being the world of fake watches there are always odd things that can happen. Details can disappear or change from one generation to the next... but in general things get better and cheaper... and quickly.

It's cool but I would be concerned about how well the style will age. I mean if you are OK with replacing it in a year or two then go for it, get the gen. But I think it may not stand the test of time very well.

I don't think it is a homesexual thing at all, after all most of them actually havce quite good taste and actually care about what they look like. Rather this is for tasteless slobs who simply have more money than brains. Again, young pro atheletes (regardless of nationality), rappers and other musicians, some obnoxious real estate agents and the like. Just people with really bad taste but a lot of money.

If they plan on selling a lot of them then the price will drop, it has to. If they are happy with some sort of smaller "limited run" then I imagine it could stay high (though even then may still drop). Years ago a lot of fakes were in the $400 - $500 range, they certainly were NOT worth it but there was less competition and a less educated market. Now we only see that price range for either genuine movements or in the case of the Big Bang a very specialty product. I think they will sell to the early adopters and then you will see the price come down as other dealers get the watch. In a coupel of months it will be in line with other higher quality fakes. My hope is that Angus can get the price down quickly so he gets the advantage of those sales. It would be a shame to have the other dealers steal all of the future sales with lower prices.