tvt

While I don't neccisarily agree with your final four to me there is one OBVIOUS choice of the four finalists... I won't impart my opinion until after you decide but to be it is very clear.

>>>To imagine you're the sole crusader trying to teach us that the QC isn't there smacks a little of arrogance, especially when I can find dozens of posts a month from respected members stating this over and over, quite clearly. <<< You know, I was right there with you and it was a nice "make nice" type of post and then you drop the above statement. When on earth have I ever said I was on a crusade to educate anyone? It is YOU who are saddling me that "honor" I have never pretended to be the only one who feels this way. However when people ask questions I want to be honest with them. You have a thread here (as was the case in a similar Asian 7750 threar) where someone is asking an honest question and I am trying to give them an honest point fo view. I would not say that you are trying to sell a bill of goods to gulible newbies so why would you throw the equivilent (though opposite) load of B.S. at me? Any sense of crusading is coming from your head or past experience with others, it is NOT coming from me. I think (and we are both now agreeing on this) that is is fairly important for a new member to consider the cost of an initial service when they are asking about the quality and reliability of these watches. If he buys a $300 fake PAM and then has a $200 service he is ad $500, toss in a $150 strap and he is at $650... for that money he may prefer a gen. I think that is what he was asking and I am just answering with honest and accurate thoughts. My intention is not to [censored] off pugwash and certainly not to educate anyone who has not specifically asked for that education.

re: Kanerich and By-Tors popints on issues OTHER than the movement... Mrnixon: Keep an eye out for anything "fancy" at all on a watch case because it is likely to cause you problems. A good example is some of the Submersible PAMs (Pam 24, Arktos, Etc.) The cool little markers around the bezel are in fact simply glued on. Even if you are being as careful as possible there is a good chance that they may pop off. If they do you are screwed, you are going to have very little luck ever finding a replacement. This is a good example of why you have to be a particular type of person to really enjoy the world of fake watches. You see some people here (not myself) really get into modding the things. They will buy a watch, redo the lume on the dial (a problem fake Pams and ALL fakes have as compared to the real deal), replace certain pieces (most fake Pams have improper crowns and or crown gaurds wehn compared ot the gens) and even correct VERY small flaws (reccessed pins for most PAMs). This type of person find that work fun and they enjoy making the watch "better". They may buy a Submersible and remove all the bezel elements just to then epoxy them back into place so they know that they will be safe. But if you are NOT this type of guy then you may be in for a disapointment the first time something goes wrong. As I have been trying to say it is not that fake watches are bad or always have issues, it is just that issues are much more likely to happen then with a gen and you often have little recourse about them when they do occur, so you need to have a realistic idea of what you are dealing with.

@Pugwash: >>>>You keep saying this and you keep missing the point. Gens are serviced just before they're put in the box- Reps aren't. That is the sum total difference between the movements.<<< You just said my exact point. I am not missing the point, you just made my point in fact. If a gen is shipped in perfect condition and a fake (assuming a fake wuth a gen ETA in it) is potentially NOT shipped in perfect condition and needs to be serviced right our of the box well that is additional money and a pain to deal with. You may DOUBLE the cost of a watch just on having it serviced. People who say "yes, but you also need to service gens" miss the point that you will need to CONTINUE to service the fake as well. So that means service #1 for the fake is the first day you own it, service #2 is lets say 5 years later. Witht he gen service #1 is five years after you get it so you ALWAYS have that extra money you spent on the fake in the equation, they never equal out. The bottom line here is simply that I am a realist. I love good fake watches and I love good genuine watches but I do not close my eyes to the problems of the fakes, or the costs of the gens. They are both great as long as you manage expectations (fakes simply are not of the same quality as gens, it goes far beyond simply the movement) but you are correct that this difference of quality of obviously reflected in the price. I just liek to remember that there is no free lunch, you know what I mean? You are getting what you pay for whichever way you go. @Mrnixon: I agree with you that panerai are a good choice because they are almost the perfect watch to fake. they are very simple and have very few parts. The gens use basic stock ETA movements so it is easy to replicate those as well (or even use the real deal). Because genuine PAMs are so based on collectors swapping bands there are MANY different cool bands available as well as the gen bands of course (an absolute MUST in my opinion for any fake PAM). Also, because the fakes often use gen ETA movements you can find parts for them. So yes, a PAM would be an excellent choice. Just make sure you educate yourself enough to know that you are getting one with a GENUINE ETA movement. You will find a coupel things in this regard. First of all many of the models use Asian 7750 copies. I do not want to re-open a debate about whether this is a good or bad movement but it is not a genuine, so be aware of that. Also within the last year or so there has been an influx of asian "Unitas" movements which are used in many of the mechanical hand wind PAMS (PAM 111 etc.). These models can be had with genuien ETA movements OR Chinese copy movements which are no where near the quality and in some cases have a fatal flaw. So you really have to be careful that you are buying what you think you are. Teh dealers here will be honest with you when you ask but the web sites often use terms loosely. Again, you may see the term ETA used when it is fact a copy. Most dealers do not directly manufacture the watches but rather act as middle medn, they are however very well versed in what is available.

It's got the fake stamped hex screws on the back just like they all do. As for size, go try on a Tag Monaco... it is only 38mm but because it is square it freaking looks and fels like a Panerai or even bigger! Square watches have MUCH more mass than round ones... so a 46mm SQUARE watch really is ginormous... but it is cool looking if you can pull it off.

Seems like I am always the guy taking this stance on the fake watch boards... but here it goes again. Fake watches have no quality control, that is the first thing you must understand. It is not all that uncommon to get brand new fake watches which arrive ihn a totally non functioning state. This is not the norm but it happens ona regular basis and is a direct cause of lack of quality control. Now it IS possible to have gens show up DOA as well (I had a gen Tag Monico arrive that way)but it is very rare, again because any quality gen brand has very good quality control ans that really makes a big difference. You will see that QC difference not just with the movement but also the fit and finish of the case and band. In general the fakes simply cannot match the gens in this dept. (though there are always exceptions.) The next thing you need to realize is that unlike the world of gens buying fake watches is much more confusing and can vary from dealer to dealer and watch to watch. Some dealers will call a movement a "swiss ETA XXXX" when in fact it is a Chinese copy of such a movement. There seems to be little standardization in that right now as well. For example dealers will always be honest and say "Asain 7750" meaning it is a Chinese copy of a Swiss ETA 7750 movement (which in my opinion is not of high quality but others strongly disagree with me). However the same dealer that says he has Asian 7750 movements may also claim a watch has an ETA so and so which is really just a Chinese copy. Sometimes it is stated and some times it is not. If you know what you are doing you can tell it is a copy because of the price, but most people, especially newbies, have no clue. So just buying the thing can be trickier than you would encounter with a gen. Next you will hear people talk about how ANY automatic movement needs to be serviced, gen or fake... and this is true. HOWEVER no genuine automatic movement will need to be serviced right out of the box. They will last AT LEAST 5 years before needing to have them looked at at likely much longer. For an inexpensive gen you may decide simply to move on to a new watch by the time it needs servicing or you may decide to go ahead and maintain it. If you choose to maintain it ANY watch repair place can service it for you and it will be cheap (under $100 generally for a basic movement). With fakes you MAY have to service it right away, you MAY have the watch seize up much, much sooner than with gens (this all goes back to the QC issues again). If you do need it serviced your choices are much more limited because most repair shops will simply not deal with fakes. You may be able to find someone locally or you could send it to one of the members of this board who will service them for you but you will end up paying a bit more and having more of a hassle getting it done (and you have to hope that if the watch does last 5 years that at that time you are still contected enough to the board to get someone to help you). Then again you MAY get a watch that runs every bit as well as any gen and is a pleasure to own, but again it is a MAYBE situation. Lets say something else breaks, a bezel or soemthing a year after you have it. With a gen you are most certainly able to get parts, with a fake it is a total crap shoot and unlikely that you will be able to find parts to repair it (and again, find a person to do those repairs). I paint this somewhat negative picture of fakes for you not because I want to discourage you but rather because you need to have realistic expectations. If you are concerned about some of the issues you seem concerned with you are probably better off going with a gen. No one is buying a fake watch because they love the quality of them, they are buying them because they have the name and the look of much more expensive watches. After that there are MANY reasons of exactly why peopel buy fakes, they range from odd attempts to impress people all the way up to simply enjoying the hunt and the fun they get out of it...any of which are fine. but again, quality and ease of service would not be good reasons to buy a fake watch, you may get those things but then again you may not. With a gen you KNOW what you are getting and you sound liek someone who would feel better KNOWING you will get what you pay for. Good luck.

Hi T: Thanks so much for going through the extra effort to give me the option of the "nothing" theme again. I know you work VERY hard to do nice things like the decorations so I appreciate it when you go out of your way from someone who just likes it as simple as possible. Extra work on your part and I honestly appreciate it. Thanks: TVT

>>>..somy dear frien you are saying that if somebody gave you a rep watch no waterproof and the same rep waterproof you will go with the first watch?for me its very important the waterproof for every of my watches!My best regards!<<< Huh? I think you may have responded to my question with the above reply by mistake (seeing that it has nothing to do with what I asked). Of course I would rather have waterproof instead of not waterproof, what I was asking though is why on Earth do you shower with ANY watch on? Or sleep with ANY watch on? Is it because you are afraid someone will steal your watch or something? I just cannot think of ANY good reason to take a shower with a watch on, I don't care if it is real or fake or anything else... it just makes no sense to me so I was wondering why you do it.

Good choice.

Not to be a party pooper but is there anyway we can get an option to shut off the Christmas or winter decorations. When the winter stuff went up we had the option of sutting it off, but now we only have the option of either Chirstmas or winter, can we get our plain old nothing option back?

May I ask why you would ever shower tih ANY watch, fake or gen? I just have never understood this concept. Unless you are in some public space where you are concerned your watch will be stolen why would you get up, put a watch on, and then shower?!? And if you SLPEE with your watch on then let me ask you why on Eartj you do that? Again, is it s theft concern or something? No offense intended, this is an honest question about something I have never understood.

I would maybe wash my hands with a 50M watch... I would feel OK about being caught in the rain with it... swimming, no, anything else (shower, sauna) with heat and moisture... NO WAY!

I have attended similar Panerai events in the past, show some class and wear a gen, even if it is not Panerai. These are really nice events and wearing a fake is just rude. The last one I went to had not only a full high end bar but a FULL dinner as well PLUS freebies. The gift bag had some really cool Panerai shirts in them, I manges to get two. Have fun.

Fortis are also relatively cheap, don't waste your time copying it! Who would pay only half of what a gen costs? An idiot maybe but lets hope not too many people here.

Flaw: Not sure if this is what you mean but the gen has a REAL carbon Fiber dial, this dial looks like stamped plastic or something.

Rather than toss yet ANOTHER soecific model into the mix I woudl like to just make a few basic (to me common sense) requests. First of all NO COMPLICATIONS, atleast nothing crazy. Sure they are cool, they are great and they are also damn near impossible to copy well, not to mention the genuines may be too expensive to buy. A nice fairly basic model which can be copied VERY well is of much more interest to me. Second, and I know a lot of people will not agree with this, but please NOT A ROLEX. We have so many Rolex fakes already and many of them are very good. We just don't need ANOTHER one, especially some obscure vintage model that is barely different from what is already out there. Plus again, buying the gen would be very hard. Third, lets do SOMETHING NEW. I know some folks want the old factory style Seamaster but come one... how boring! We already have REALLY good Omega fakes, Planet Ocean and good Sea Masters and so on... lets go for something that has not been faked to death 1000 times. Finally, lets keep the gen price something sane. It should fall in the 3k - 8k range is SS or something like that. Faking a 30k watch is a bit pointless in my opinion.

I'm not agitated in the slightes and I don't mean to come off as being unwilling to change my mind or anything like that. It's just that I know what my experiences have been and I know that I hear MANY other people complaining about this specific movement. So from my experiences I just cannot see how I could call the Asian 7750 a good movement, because for me it simply is not. The Zigmeister knows what he is talking about and I totally trust what he says, but that does not change my personal experiences. Finally, regarding the genuine Swiss movement. I trust that everything you posted is accurate and legit and all of that but like I said, I own several of them and I have never heard that nor have I ever had any problems with them at all. In fact after reading what you posted I pulled one out and intentionally set the date during the prohibited period and it set just fine, 100% no problems. I agree that this thread has gone in circles and my responses have been repetative but at some point you have to go by personal (and repeat) experiences and put more weight on that than what others (even people in the know) tell you.

>>>Those rules are for all 7750's Swiss or Asian.... Just goes to prove that chronographs, are not for everyone...<<< First of all where the hell did you hear that? That is DEAD WRONG. I won about 6 genuine Swis 7750 based watches and any single one of them can have the date set at any given time. there are no rules I have to follow, no silly parameters to work within. Whoever told you that the genuien acts this way is either mis-informed or not telling you the truth for some reason. the two movements also FEEL totally different from each other. While the gen is very smooth and silky in feel the Asain is course at best. I love cronographs but I also love fucntioning movements. Concerning everything else I STILL don't think you "get" what I am saying. OF COURSE any automatic watch will need servicing, I would hope that needs to go without saying. But it is damn near ridiculous to think that a BRAND NEW watch direct from the facotry should be in need of service. The fact that people seem willing to accept this as though it was somehow OK is CRAZY. If a watch needs to be serviced every 5 years or so then fine. Some people may even argue that if a fake craps out in 5 - 8 years that they will just write it off as a throw away after many years of use... I'm OK with that as well. But to say that you buy a watch and need to have it serviced right away is somehow normal or OK, well that's just nuts in my opinion. I say again, the ASIAN 7750 has more problems than ALL other movements found in decent quality fakes COMBINED and then multiplied by 10. If that is acceptable to you then great, but it is NOT a matter of not understanding chronographs or some such nonesense, rather it is a case of poorly assembled or designed or what have you movements. Since we have no control over how well any individual movement is assembled it makes no difference if it is the assembly or the design that causes the problem, the fact is that a problem is there. So let me re-phrase my answer to the question: Q: Is the new Asian 7750 a good movement? A: No, unless you spend $200 to have it serviced and follow some crazy set of rules about not setting the date during half of the day and other limitations. If fit and finish do not matter to you and you are a risk taker then it MIGHT work for you. Good luck.

OK, all jokes aside, do you know how to pronounce ETA? It is actually (again, no joke I swear) a single word "Ehta" NOT three letters E-T-A.

If any individual has had ggood luck with the 7750s the GREAT but count yourself lucky. It really is just the truth that they break MUCH more often then any other movement, so why not just be honest about that? If peopel still want to try it then OK but in my opinion there are much better ways to spend that money on superior watches. It is true, that when my PAM 87 for exampel arrived DOA the dealer (EL) took care of it and had it replaced. But it is pretty silly that I cannot set the date during half the day and have all sorts of other rules to remember. Those are all signs that it is a flawed movement and the experiences of many, many members here bears truth to that. I have no reason to bad mouth the thing, I do not sell genuine movements or something, I am just relating my experiences and those of many others.

I still think this is missing the point. Most problems people have with fake watches (at least fakes of decent quality) revolve around the Asian 7750. So if someone just asks in general "is this a good movement" I can't see any logical answer other than no, because the evidence is just overwhelming that the 7750 has more problems than other movements. Now one might argue that they really like a particular style watch that is only available with a 7750, and thertefore in order to get that watch it is worth the money to have it serviced. I can buy that, but the 7750 DOES have more problems than other movements... we are not arguing that, are we?

I don't think there is a right answer or a wrong answer in terms of wether it is worththe "risk" or not for any inndividual. That is opinion and my opinion is no more valid that yours. So If any single person feels it is worth it then great, I see nothing wrong with that at all. But all I can do is talk from my personal experiences, I am NOT a watchmaker, I cannot tell you why a movement works or does not work. What I can tell you however is what I have personally seen and that is that the only watches I have had major problems with are Asian 7750 based. In addition the MASS majority of any watch people seem to have issues with are Asian 7750 based. I think it has to be more than just some freak coincidence. So then one can argue that the movement itself can be fine, but they are not assembled well and therefore will need to be serviced. OK, I can buy that but if I spend $300 on a watch and $200 on service then I am in for $500 before I even change straps or do anything else (re-lume etc.). In my opinion that is not a great deal, I would either rather spend that money on ETA based fakes that do not have as many issued or buy a gen if it is the right watch. But again, that is just me, not saying it is what EVERYONE should do. I do feel that as a genral question though... Are Asian 7750's a good movement I think the honest answer is no. Whether it is because of design or fit and finish or assembly does not really matter. What matters to me is that the watch runs well and in my experience the Asain 7750s do not (as evidence I just had a PAM 87 with one show up dead, and it is NOT the first time that has happened).

I'm not sure where we are going with this. OF COURSE gens have problems as well, I don't think anyone would argue that, but the point is that those problems (aside from generally being much less frequent) can easily be repaired and fixed, usually under warranty. But this is not a discussion of ggen versus fake quality, obviously high end gens are better made but you pay for it. Rgarding how fit and finish effect performance... well, they just do, just like how ANY mechanical device is fit together effects how it runs. But don't get me wrong, when I talk about fit and finish a lot of it has more to do with just an appreciation of the quality rather then a direct corilation to how it functions. To get back on topic however I have been involved with the various boards for 6 years (since the VERY beginning of the first one) and by far, hands down, not even close, the movement with the most problems are ALWAYS the Asian 7750s. That's enough proof for me right there. I have never had any issues with any other movements and yet I have had 7750s show up dead on arrival or just seize up within days. I cannot pass all of these problems off simply on poor QC. I know The Zigmeister says they seem to work once serviced and I respect his opinion very much (he certainly knows a LOT more about movements than I ever will) and yet I still must respectfully disagree to some extent. I just know that Asian 7750s have a TON of issues and I would rather not spend $200 to have a watch serviced the day after I buy it.... I think it is really a known fact that Asian 7750 based watches have more problems than any other so I take that at face value.

I'm talking about both. MAINLY I am talking about the lack of quality assembly, poor oiling, dirt etc. But I also am not a fan of the poor quality fit and finish of the parts. Yes, they are good enough to work but there is nothing elegant about it's manufactur, it is just shall we say rough. To me the movement of the wath and it's fit and finish is probably the single MOST important part. But I agree, a $175-$200 service should get the thing running OK for you, but as I outlined above I think it is not the best purchase to spend $500-$750 on a serviced fake watch... I would prefer to use that money on more dependable watches.

Probably some Mickey Mouse watch (seriously) that then led to interests in lots of others.