tvt

This is one of the very few heavily modded watches that i think may actually be worth the trouble... it looks GREAT. Panerai should consider it as a gen option. I LOVE the gray tachymetre and would NOT consider changing that at all, it makes the watch. I do agree with Neil that the center second hand is too dark. In a way it is cool, a sort of stealth deal going on, but having actual functionality there would be better. Overall it is a VERY cool watch. I gnerally HATE heavily modded watches as they seem to be a waste of time but again, this has created something new and very interesting.

OK. I stand corrected. Funny how the mind plays tricks with you. I recall reading SUBMARINER but it has been many years since I last read a Bond book and I must have simply read "Rolex". STILL, atleast ROLEX was specified and also the sub is the classic watch worn during the Connery days of Bond. It just seems to fit Bond more and it certainly was NOT product placement as is the case with Omega. One gets the feeling that had Tag or any other brand ponied up enough cash they too could be the new Bond watch. I like Omegas and I even like the 40th anniversary Bond SMP, but they just don't feel "right" to me for Bond... especially not the Daniel Craig mode of tough ass Bond.

If you want a "Bond" watch you should be wearing a Submariner (preferably vintage). That is what Sean Connery wore and it is what Iam Flemming SPECIFICALLY described Bond as wearing in the books. The Omega stuff is just a modern day excersize in product placement. While I like the watches they do not fit the Bond character at all, to delicate and fussy. If you wanta Bond THEMED watch then what the hell, might as well get one of the TWENTY versions Swatch made a few years back. Better yet, get them all in the cool aluminum case they came in.

I cannot speak directly to this specific watch but in general they all come from the same suppliers. While super common models like a Submariner may have MANY different makers the more specialty watches tend to all come from one single source. So, why the price difference? Well a lot of it boild down to volume and how much money the dealer feels he needs to make in order to make it worth while. Also, is he selling direct from a source or simply a middle man himself how has things dropped shipped and has to mark up already marked up prices. A typical watch that we might spend $200 on costs absolutley no more than half that price if you bought it from the source in China and quite likely MUCH, MUCH less. In the watch markets I saw watches we would pay $300 for going for $50... that is without even negotiating the price down. So lets say one dealer buys a watch for $100 and sells it for $200, he is making a good profit. Another dealer may be buying the watch from a middle man for $175, he may feel the need to make more money due to lower volume or higher greed or what have you, that same exact watch may then be sold for $300... Much more for the same exact thing the first dealer had for $200 and COULD be had for $100 if you were in China. One thing is for sure, money does NOT equate to quality ion the fake watch world. Lastly, I am NOT talking about Paul or Joshua directly, I have ordered from NIETHER of them. This is just a general observation from my years of experience dealing with different dealers and the markets in China.

Why would you order from what you yourself called "known scam sites". Seems like staying FAR WAY from scam sites would be a better policy.

>>>TVT, my friend......i must compliment you on your well-reasoned responses to this question/statement. Even though you're completely and totally wrong about most of it, you can at least articulate your point-of-view without resorting to name calling and the blatant self-justification that plagues a place like this. (and the internet at-large) Good on you for being so correctly incorrect. :-)<<< I'm so confused at this point that I am not even sure what side of the debate I am on any longer, but I will always take a compliment be it back handed or not... so thanks. I just think at the end of the day you cannot pigeon hole everybody into little boxes and in fact any argument any of us makes here probably reflects the person making that argument MUCH more than it does the board as a whole. I also think there is an important distcintion to be made here. Are we talking about EVERYBODY who buys fake watches in general, or those specifically on this board? The fake watch buying public at large DO I believe by them almost exclusively to trick people into thinking they have something they do not. This may be a misguided attempt at elevating social cirlces. It may be an insecure soul desperately trying to find a tangible item that will make them feel better about themselves (just a hint, that will NEVER happen, get some therapy) or in most cases it is probably pretty normal people thinking that "Hey, I've always liked that kind of watch but would never spend the money... what the hell, I'll buy that fake." Now the people on the board are different to some extent in my opinion (not just this board but all those that proceeded it and which I have been involved with the past 6 years or so). We are idiots who get sucked into the world of these things and get addicted and it may be for any number of reasons... most of them probably NOT about fooling people. One last thing that I find very ammusing is that some folks on these boards seem to think that these "fine replicas" are made for the collecting world. They are made for this tiny fragment f the population that knows about and collects higher end fake watches. The simple truth is that these are illegal items made by a fringe segment of society in order to fool people into purchasing something other than what they thought it was. We are the lucky bastards that enjoy the fall out. We have honest dealers who are straight with us and sell us what they say it is. But all the fake box sets, papers, hang tags, holograms, warranty cards and so on are made for one reason and one reason only... to decieve people... period. Al it takes is one trip to the watch markets in China where you will see literaly tens of thousands of Rolex boxes and papers stacked up waiting to fool the poor guy on eBay or out of the back of a not so great jewelry store or in the back rooms of Hong Kong or what have you. Most peopel walking aroud with some of these high end watches have been fooled themselves and don't even know they have fakes... or maybe sort of think that it might be a stolen watch or even a fake watch, but greed made them overlook that in the quest for a "once in a lifetime deal". I like to try NOT to fool myself, I know what these are and I STILL enjoy them.

I agree. There can be many reasons to buy fakes but the "quality" of them is just simply NOT one of them... period. Even if your fake has a quality movement the way they have been assembled is an absolute joke as compared to ANY genuine, even super cheap ones. There is no QC, no repurcusions for making them poorly, no warrenty, nothing. I have had more issues with my fake watches by a factor of 100 over any gen of any quality I have ever owned. It is really just a silly argument to make. If we are interested in quality accurate time keeping we would all buy Casio digital watches. If we were interested in inexpensive nice looking, well made automatics we would all buy dept. store brands. These all have quality easily on par and in most all cases far superior to even the best of fakes. We in fact buy fakes because of the fact that they mimic genuines. Now this is where things may differ from person to person. Some may want that fake to fool people, others may want to for a myriad of other reasons... but the fact that it is a fake of a genuine watch DOES come into play.

The fact is that like most things in life why people buy fakes is NOT cut and dry, it is just that simple. There are people who buy them just flat out to fool people, to make them think they have something they do not. But there are MANY other reasons that people 9especially on forums such as this) buy them. I personally do not buy Rolex fakes and the fakes I do buy (mostly Panerai right now but a variety of other lesser known "brands" as well) end up resting in a display case where they largely remian unworn. I tend to wear my gens because they are simply better watches and I feel better wearing them. So the fakes are not "folling" anyone... yet I still really enjoy them. I could possibly see collecting those dept. store brands. In fact years ago before I was in a position to buy higher end gens I did in fact collect the dept. store models. In college I had a dozen or two watches... all inexpensive (swatch, Fossil. etc.) but a collection nonetheless. I was collecting those not to impress people but simple because I liked them. I was a "watch guy". I enjoyed the look of them and the variety they offered me. As I grew older and could reasonably afford "better" watches I started buying gens and built a collection of those. Then I came across the fakes and there was something very intriguing and interesting about them. The very idea that people would go to such extremes to mimic genuine brands, the hunt for them, the minute critique of every little detail. I found this all to be very fun and so I got the fake watch bug as well... but NONE of it ever had ANYTHING to do with fooling someone, not myself or others. As an aside, a guy who works for me started to notice my watches. He knew NOTHING about watches, he just liked the way the Panerais looks. So when I was in China I purchased him a good quality PAM (we would pay $300 - $400 here but in China it was well under $100) and gave it to him. He gets complimented on that thing EVERYWHERE. I have been with him on three different ocassions when women tell him how cool his watch it. They have no clue what a Panerai is, they just like his watch. He is wearing it not to fool anyone but simply because he thought it was a cool looking watch.

I have seen MANY, MANY fakes of REALLY ugly watches... I don't think they are being copied because they look good, they are being copied because people will pay money to have something they can't REALLY have. the idea of having a beater watch (or a bunch of them) is fine. Your cut of point is $500, also fine. The problem comes when you look at what LEGIT watches can be had for $500... a TON of them. Most of them FAR superior in quality to even the best of the fakes we know have and they all have warrenties to boot. In fact I hear a lot of talk about how great the quality of fakes are today (and they are, as compared to the past) but very few are truly well made watches. What they are is cheaply thrown together watches with no QC. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't (I just had a new PAM show up dead today). I just think that if you want a beater you have a HUGE selection of $500 watches which are easier to get and work better (while still looking great) than any fake. I can believe that people buy fakes for reasons other than to "fool people" I am one of them, but surely the name stamped on there means something to you... otherwise why not go buy a really nice Oris or something?

The popularity of PAMS is on the wane for sure. I think one could argue they jumped the shark a while back when they started putting Sylvester Stalone's name on the back of some of them. I still love them though.

Hmmmmm... Well, a couple thoughts. While I agree that there are many no name dept. store watches that cost FAR less then our fakes but also have FAR better quality control AND a warrenty I must disagree that they mimic all styles and designs. Rolex sure, but I have not really seen a Panerai knock off that is worthy of a second look. but your point is valid and true. I would buy a genuien PAM and a fake PAM but probably not a PAM style Fossil or something along those lines. I am not really sure why but I really don't think fooling people comes into the equation for me. It is probably more because I enjoy the idea of comparing the fakes to the gens to see just how close they can get. Obviously a legal knock off (meaning a "fashion" watch in the style of a famous brand but without the trade mark infringement) can only go so far. You end up with somehting that looks sort of like a PAM (or Rolex or what have you) while the fakes actually try to mimic every last detail. It is that quest to copy that I find interesting. I guess the question is WHY do I find that interesting? Probably for the same reason people find it interesting to see how movies are made or how a house is decorated and resold for a profit. These are sort of mundane things but it can be intriguing to see. I enjoy being a spectator and watching how the fakes mimic the gens and try to keep up with them, constantly being refined and changed. What can I tell you, I just find it fun. I rarely ever wear ANY of my fakes either. From time to time sure but I would say I wear my gens 30-1 over fakes easily. Mostly they sit in a watch box being part of a collection. Stupid sort of, yes, but also enjoyable for me. So, for me there is a difference between dept. store brands and fakes and that is where the enjoyment lies. And sure, on SOME level when you put a fake watch on you know you might fool people, but that might not be your goal. Why can someone not wear a watch simply because THEY enjoy it and for no other reason? But yes, I agree it is a bit academic. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that the reason fake watches are made, bought and sold is to fool people. It is a way for folks to try and be something that they are not. It is just not that way for EVERYONE is all.

I think you need to multiply that number by about 10,000, honestly. For every one of us there are 50,000 people who don't care.

Iti is an interesting question... I mean I wonder IF money was just ZERO object would I still buy fakes? Who knows but right now I honestly think I would with the understanding that I would sure as hell ALSO be buying gens. If I could ONLY buy gens OR fakes, be it in my real life or some faatasy money no limit life, I would hands down, no doubt, not think about it twice, easiest no brainer in the world ONLY BUY GENUINES. But again, that is liek saying do you like Lobster or Pizza better? Well, depends what mood I am in, depends who I am with, depends what the occassion is... there are times I want lobster and times I want pizza. Likewise there are aspects about the fakes, more specifically finding and following thier evolution, which I PREFER to gens. Pretty much everything else I prefer about gens (quality of construction and fine detail work and so on). So your litmus test would have me on the side of buying gens if I had no choice, but had I still have the choice I think I would to continue to buy BOTH. BTW, I am one of those folks when asked "would you rather have 10 fakes or 1 gen" would always choose the one gen. But it is NOT a black and white world, we can have both and I really do enjoy them for different but equal reasons.

While I would like to rally around Rongoms post and ra ra it (because afterall I more or less agree) I am afraid that I can't because simply put, atleast for myself and I believ others, IT IS NOT TRUE. Now I have absolutley ZERO alterior motive to lie or be anything other than 100% honest. Yet I have no way of proving how I fel or why I buy fakes other than to just tell you the truth, you can choose to believe me or not but I can't "prove" it either way. First off this is an age old discussion that I have had on the various boards for years and years. YES, without a doubt MOST people buy them to try and fool people into thinking they have something they do not. And yet there are pletny of collectors who own as many gens and they do fakes. I have more or less equal of both gens and fakes and I buy them for VERY different reasons. Now before I go on I admit, if all things were equal and the fakes could magically turn into gens sure, i would prefer that. In a perfect world I prefer gens, they are built better, in some cases there is legit history to them and I just flat like them better. So perhpas that put's me in the catagory Rongoms is talking about anyway. But to me gens and fakes are TWO DIFFERNT THINGS. It is like saying to someone you cannot collect baseball cards because you also collect antique books... they are just different and collected for different reasons. What I enjoy about the fakes is that pursuit, the hunt, the tracking down the most interesting and unique and accurate fakes. This is not something you get in the world of gens with the exception of certain limited editions. I ALSO enjoy tracking down those very same limited edition gens. I have absolutley ZERO interest in "fooling people" which is not to say that by wearing a fake watch I do not end up fooling some people, but it is NOT the reason I have ever owned one fake. In fact the God's honest truth is that I owned several gens (Rolex, Tag and a few others) before I ever picked up my first quality fake (I did own a stupid canal street fake from 20 years back before I ever bought a gen just for full disclosure). Anyway, sure most everyone buys these to "fool people" but not EVERYONE does. There is a distinction between claiming one prefers fakes over gens (which I agree is assinine) and the idea that people ONLY buy fakes to fool people.

An inexpensive but fun and cool alternative is the Franck Muller Crazy Hours. Women love them, they are colorful and femanine, and they are quite cool as well. They make a nice conversation piece.

Yea, even if you knwo what you are talking about it is often VERY hard to spot fakes while on the wrist. I am very familiar with fake Panerais and have been around for the entire lifespan of them, from NO fakes at all, through the HORRIBLE ones, onto OK ones and to where we are today with very good ones. Even so the only way I knew it was fake at first was the bad strap (you HAVE to change those) and then I got a decent look at the crown (I helped him put his bag in the overhead) and the way underpowered cyclopse (which BTW I htink is a Rolex specific term but what the hell) and so I knew it was a fake. I own a gen SS Submariner and even so I swear I cannot tell fakes on the wrist, even BAD fakes. This is why it is so funny when people get caught up in the minutiaof the flaws on fakes. There is often a huge QUALITY difference but often very little VISUAL difference. If you hand me a fake Sub, even the best of the best, I will tell you (literally with my eyes closed) that it is fake within about 5 seconds. ALl you have to do is wind the watch and you INSTANTLY know. A brief glance up close will tell you as well, and I often can tell just holding it behind my back (yes, I honestly have been tested at all of this... good way to kill some time). But ON WRIST, they all look exactly the same to me. So if you have minor flaws on a watch anyone who knows enough to spot those flaws will only see them if the watchis off your wrist and they are examining it. At that point NOTHING will prevent the watch from being detected as a fake. Becuase of this I genrally do not mod my fakes, they are what they are and I can live with that. So if you are at work and people are flashing watches by you I can imagine that it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell what it what.

Well just to further explain... I obviously don't walk aroudn with a sign that reads "ask me about my fake watch" or anything like that! I am not blaring through a bull horn "FAKE WATCH HERE< CHECK OUT MY FAKE WATCH!". Rather I always tell people it is fake if the topic comes up and if the person really cares. So for example if I am buying a shirt and the ales girl is trying to butter me up and find something to compliment me on and says "Oh, what a cool watch" I say "Thanks" that's that. However if someone I know or work with or whatever says "Man, that's a nice watch, what kind is it..." I then would say "Thanks, it is actually a fake Panerai... " then go on to explain to them what a GEN Panerai is and why these fakes are cool and so on. So I guess my point is that I don't ever try to fool people into thinking it is something it is not, at least I do not purposly do that, I am sure strangers who glimpse the watch may be fooled... who knows? I think that ALL luxury products are grossly overpriced and are priced that way just so you can "join the club". Perfume that costs $500 a bottle (or more, MUCH more, clothing, jewelry, watches, pens, cars, even silly things like bed linens that can cost thousands of dollars. These are all MASSIVELY overpriced but that is the very definition of "luxury". There is nothing practical or justified about luxury goods. They exist as a way os showcasing that you can afford to in essence throw money away. I am not even saying that this is bad, just that it is what it is. So sure, gens are membership cards to a club but maybe that is OK? FINALLY, yes, I see fake watches all the time on people. I mean fairly good ones but still fake. I was flying back from Hong Kong and the guy behind me had a big fake PAM on. I spotted it as a fake but thought it would be interesting to ask him about it. So I just said "Wow, a Panerai, nice watch!" He had this priceless look of guilt on his face and glanced over at his wife (who had a pretty bad fake Bvlgari on). They must of picked them up from the many street venfors in HK. Anyway I did not tell him I knew it was a fake but it was and he now thinks he fooled some guy on a plane... so good for him, maybe it made his day which would be great.

That brings up a funny observation I have made: Does ANY car salesman own a GENUINE watch? It seems like some sort of standard issue uniform for car salesman. Almost like a law, if you sell cars you MUST wear a fake watch. It is so silly and so often these guys look like fools. If you are into watches and happen to collect fakes then great, but every car salesperson I have seen with a fake (almost all of them) just are clueless. I was at an Infiniti dealership and I see this guy wearing a "Panerai" so I mention it to him without referencing watches. In other words I just said "Nice Panerai" not "Nice watch". The guy looks at me like "what the hell are you talking about?" and says "huh?" I said again, without looking at his wrist... "Nice Panerai" He had no clue as to what I was talking about, I think he MAY have thought I was talking about Panera Bread. After another blank look I said "Your watch..." He obviously had no idea how to even pronounce Panerai and just said "Oh, um yea, thanks" meanwhile it was an OBVIOUS fake. Around this time another guy walks into his office also in a glaringly fake Panerai, I said "Wow, you guys must really be into watches!" knowing of course that they were clueless. I then started looking aroudn and the showroom was like a catalog of bad fake watches of all brands... these guys were idiots for sure blindly buying bad fakes probably because the boss had one. In this case the boss in fact had a decent PAM GMT fake, atleast he knew how to say it. When I asked him about it he gave me the typical BS about his wife buying it for him (um, sure). Check it out next time you go car shoping, it is quite humorous.

Well I have discussed good fakes with knowleable guys at watch stores. now to be fair I do this while wearing a gen and I also slightly disagree that all they are selling is a membership to s snob club. I mean I DO agree that with ANY luxury item the elite status is the MAIN reason most people buy them. However I also see a large quality difference between gens and fakes (just today for example a new PAM 87 arrived to me totally dead... muct be sent back. I doubt to many gen PAMS come that way). ANYWAY... I have discussed the higher quality fakes and in general he repsonses are fairly informed and even appreciative of how far they have come. I have had guys tell me that they have seen a lot of good fakes (which may be a low key way of saying they own them) and that they are really close. I have had guys tell me that there is no way they would ever know a good fake PAM from a gen unless they examined it closely. So overall I think MOST guys who are into watches are sort of intrigued by good fakes. What they probably don't like, and niether do I, is the idea of TRICKING people into thinking a fake is a gen. This is why I felt like such as ass in Vegas when I sort of unwittingly ended up being put in the situation I was in. In general I ALWAYS tell people a watch is fake if in fact it is and the reactions I get are more interesting and fun than if I lied.

I think I was "caught" once but no one actually said anything. I was in Vegas with a friend and I was wearing a pretty good Paul Nueman Daytona... the gen is a minimum of 50K so watch people would notice it. My freind wanted to go to Tourneau and I generally would not do that with a fake on (not for fear of being caught but just because I might get self concious and I also feel it is a bit insulting. I know they will not call me on it to be polite and meanwhile I look like an ass.) Anyway, he really wanted to go so I said what the hell, I contimplated taking it off but for whatever reason I just wore it. The SECOND I walked in the door, and I mean literally like the very first step in, a guy comes up and says "Wow, GREAT watch!". Then he calls over his friends. Several other sales guys come over and I realize that I am scrwewed here because these guys know watches. No one asks if it is fake or not, they just start saying stuff like "Man, Paul Nueman's are incredibly rare, where did you get it, woud you ever sell it? " etc. So I kind of blow it all off and try to be low key and then they call over a manager to look at it. I think the first sales guys thought it was legit. The manager comes over and all the guys ask me to take it off so he can see it. I say that it is a special watch so I don't take it off but I held it up for him to see. He nodded politely and just kind of said nothing. The other guys went on and on about it and the manager just sat there silently. I am 99.9% sure that the sales guys honestl;y did not know it was fake but the manager did and decidednot to embarass me (as ANY sales person would choose to do and why the "I tricked my AD" posts are so meaningless.) I finally broke away and cringed at how I must of looked to them when I left. If I could do it again I simply would of said, from square one "Oh this thing, no, it is fake..." I ALWAYS tell people my fake watches are fake but somehow this just kind of crept up on me and got out of control. As for the dental guy who thought the 183 was fake because it had no crown gaurd... funny, but not surprising. Most people who buy expensive watches simply walk into a store and get sold something. The sales guy probably told him that Panerai was the "hot" watch of the moment and so he went for it... no real understanding about it. Hell, most people who know a LITTLE about Panerai actually think it was the watch of the Italian navy and other such marketing nonesense rather than being a slightly over 10 year old company which it is.

Well this is what makes Panerai the marketing masters they have become. I think it is wearig this a bit though. It is one thing to create an all new watch as a limited edition, but when all they are doing is sticking a different case back on it people might start to get tired of it. I blame Rolex with the fake limited supply of SS Daytonas for starting all of this. 10 years ago they could not GIVE AWAY SS daytonas. Then they decided to just make fewer of them and make them hard to get, suddenly it is the hottest watch they sell and people pay ridiculous prices for them (much more than solid gold versions). Same thing.

The odd thing with me is that most of my friends know that I am into watches, so when I have a new one they ASSUME it to be genuine. When I tell them it is a fake (because I always do, I think it's cooler) they often do not believe me. I find myself in an odd position of arguing that it is in fact fake while they shake their heads and argue that they MUST be genuine. On the other hand when I spot someone with a fake I trhow a bucket of red paint in them and laugh.

While it is possible that it is because of the AR (which is great) it is much more likely due to a polarizing filter and perhaps some retouching. If you know how to light glass you don't need an AR coating.

Good post Omni, and I htink you "get" what I am saying. I love fake watches (and yes, I call them "fakes" not "replicas" because afterall, that is what they are and I like to be realistic about that fact) and I also love genuine watches. I sort of parallel collect both, and for different reasons. The truth is that fakes allow one to have a lot of variety and choice but it is not really about costs to me as much as it is about that hunt for the "perfect' clone. This is what The Zigmeister is talking about... We have all seen MASSIVE changes in the quality even in the last 2 years so much the last 5 or 6. This makes that hunt even more rewarding. So yes, things are getting better and better, but trust me when I tell you7 there is still a huge difference between fake and genuine in virtually ever case. The only question is whether the differences are worth the HUGE price difference. To some yes, to some no... but the days of ALL fakes being crap certainly are long over.

I have now been involved with the various boards (though not so much this one mainly TRC and the other RWG plus RWCC before those) for about 5 years or so, maybe a bit more. During that time I have seen a HUGE range of quality and while we could get pretty damn good ETA based Submariners even 6 years ago the idea of something like a decent quality PAM or other non Rolex models is a relatively new development. I do think the quality has made MAJOR improvements and yet to some extent I understand with points being made that these are still low quality or over priced. The simple fact is that MOST fakes are in fact VERY poor quality. We are not talking about what members here buy, we are talking about canal street garbage. If you remove those from the picture you are left with some good parts being put into watches with ZERO quality control. This means that sometimes you get lucky, sometime you don't. As I have seen first hand (as chronicled in my posts a little over a year ago) at the watch markets in China the TRUE costs of these watches is almost shokingly low. When I see watches that we buy from trusted dealers for $300 being sold for $50 or less (and yes, these are the EXACT SAME watches) I can see how one would question the quality. It is true that the Chinese are often happy making what we might consider a small profit per watch (in other words that $50 watch my have cost $45 to produce) but still... for $45 what kind of REAL qualoty can be in there? You see, it is a double edged sword. On one side the quality IS MUCH better than it has ever been, on the other hand I think it is foolish to believe that the quality is anywhere near that of a genuine. Viewed as what they are fake watches are great fun and can offer suprising quality... but just remember that you are buying $50 watches, not "fine timepieces". The Zigmeister points out several specific high priced models with sme great movements, but those are rare and far and few in between.