Chronographs... what's your opinion?

[By-Tor]

I've been thinking about this... if you buy a Asian powered 7750 for $250 - $300 and spend another $300 for the full service we're getting into $500 - $600 price range. Personally I just find that kind of money too much for a fake watch, especially when the subdial spacing is still off... and the watch doesn't give you even 90% visual accuracy. You can leave it unserviced but it's a fast ticking time bomb anyway.

What are the options then?

Quartz chronos seldom have correct visual appearance, but there are exceptions like TAG Aquaracer 2000 which looks mighty good. But then we usually have the text AUTOMATIC printed on the dial with ticking subdial seconds and stopwatch, which completely ruins the watch. I'm not anal about the details usually, but the text AUTOMATIC on a quartz is too much (imho). Another nasty thing with quartz chronos are the subdials that sometimes don't reset and center properly. At least that's what I've heard.

Then there was this Daytona with correct subdial spacing (and running seconds at 6'o'clock) but completely faux, non-working chrono and non-responding pushers.

What do I think? I wouldn't mind getting a faux chrono and non-working pushers if the watch looks great and the price was reasonable. I wouldn't mind a TAG quartz chrono, either (probably more than half of the genuine TAGs are lowly quartz anyway). Calendar/date faux chronographs are the worst (imho), I wouldn't buy one. Why do the rep factories even produce these when they could produce good and accurate looking versions with non-responding subdials and pushers? I never use the stopwatch for anything, it's there just for the looks. You could always say your chrono is broken if someone asks (unlikely).

I believe there could be a market in this community for visually stunning (non-calendar) non-working faux chrono versions. Of course there would be a market for a reliable 7750 movement, but according to Ziggy's reviews the even new versions come completely dry!!! That means trouble... and expensive trouble.

Quartz version of a Speedmaster, Zenith El Primero or Daytona would feel a bit silly. I could consider a Breitling Navitimer quartz though. Venus is a good and robust movement but lack of date, again wrong subdial spacing and that dreaded stupid 6'o'clock subdial/hour hand makes it unacceptable for most watches.

My next watch? TAG Aquaracer 2000 chronograph quartz (if I can source it without the text AUTOMATIC somewhere... I know it's available).

Your thoughts?

[mossanti]

hi there,

IMHO, they look good on both automatic n quartz..but the darn thing is the quartz...have the automatic font printed infront...so I would not got for the quartz for sure..I've seen both watches ...the aquaracer last month ...I almost to get one...at that time i was thinking to get the automatic one..coz..the quartz is nor reasonable at all...

but panerai always on top of my list...so if you want to buy it...ask urself do u will ever use the crono on the quartz?...

cheers...enjoy ur new watchs...u will really look like Brad Pit...:)

mossanti

[Chicken Manny]

For me it really depends on the watch. I don't mind paying extra for a nice movement. I choose or upgrade to ETA whenever possible. Being the type that owns both reps and gens I don't always go the rep way. Bottom line, if I can get an accurate watch with a good movment for 1-10% of gen price I'm going rep. Plus the service of a chrono movement can be less than the $300 range.

Cheers,

CM

[By-Tor]

cheers...enjoy ur new watchs...u will really look like Brad Pit...:)

mossanti

Thanks but I haven't bought it yet (and the picture is Andrew's).

Another member at TRC told me that he bought this same rep without the text AUTOMATIC on Ioffer. So it's definitely available (somewhere). Let's keep our fingers crossed.

[Richard Tracy]

Who charges $300 ? Quote I got was almost half that.

Maybe I was getting a deal however so don't quote this post ....

No matter,..if you invest the funds to have it serviced, it takes your time bomb

fear out of the equation, if you select the right movement and right watch master to do the work.

Choose right and You get a guarantee.

You also have the option of investing just a bit more and going for a Real ETA 7753.

I also don't see your 90% accuracy, as Breitling and Panerai are very, very, close in

the certain models.

Regarding cost, you are comparing fully working chronographs, to the price of cheap non-chrono

watches, and calling them expensive.

When the fair comparison, is the price of a Genuine Chronograph, to that of a

serviced Replica, which never comes higher than 10%, of Gen, usually much lower,

while giving you the same operability and close to the reliability, and very close to the accuracy,

to where 99.9% of John Q public would never know.

Remember, we are privy to information here that most will never have acess to.

If you want to go Quartz, go for it, but I say if you are willing to go in that direction, you

may as well get a Genuine quartz, they are priced much lower,.. {For good reason}.

[By-Tor]

I also don't see your 90% accuracy, as Breitling and Panerai are very, very, close in

the certain models.

Some models of Breitling and Panerai (and the new IWC GST) might be very close but they're definitely exceptions. MOST 7750 chronographs have completely wrong subdial spacing and sometimes bad pushers. Visually 90% accurate replica is excellent, imho. There's always differences in overall quality when you compare your rep to a genuine.

Regarding cost, you are comparing fully working chronographs, to the price of cheap non-chrono

watches, and calling them expensive.

I still feel investing $500 on a Chinese fake watch a lot of money, no matter how "accurate" it is. It's still a Chinese fake watch.

Feel free to disagree but don't start patrionizing me with your noob lessons, oh Wise one. I was merely posting my personal thoughts. That's what these forums are for, right?

Edited April 2, 2006 by By-Tor

[Richard Tracy]

No patronizing here, By-tor,.. No need to get angry,..or insulting,... which at least I, have not done

to this point.

It's just that some of your posted reasoning goes against

common knowledge of experts, and seems based upon cost, not accuracy or reliability.

If price is your stand, say so, but mixing the other two issues is misleading those that

may be seeking a decent chronograph replica, have the funds, or don't see a few hundred dollars

as a huge barrier.

[By-Tor]

No patronizing here, By-tor,.. No need to get angry,..or insulting,... which at least I, have not done

to this point.

It's just that some of your posted r , and seems based upon cost, not accuracy or reliability.

If price is your stand, say so, but mixing the other two issues is misleading those that

may be seeking a decent chronograph replica, have the funds, or don't see a few hundred dollars

as a huge barrier.

You completely missed the whole point. I didn't "compare" them. I was considering different options. Joshua's (and EL's) $100 Daytona looked excellent (and it had non-working subdials, pushers and stopwatch). Last I checked $100 is hell of a lot less than $500.

And of course price is a factor, for most people in rep forums anyway. "A few hundred dollars more" is a lot of money when you talk about a fake. Especially when many people are buying and collecting these as "novelty items" anyway. Your IWC might be a good deal (and good rep). Congratulations for that. But does it make sense to get "90% accurate and serviced" Aquaracer 7750 automatic chrono for $500 when preowned genuines can be obtained for $800? Come on...

For some people working stopwatch might be very important and thus that kind of rep would be unacceptable. Working stopwatch isn't that essential for me, if the watch is otherwise in good quality. I was wondering why the rep factories don't produce more watches like that and put out laughable calendar chronos instead. For me that kind of watch would be a serious option as I don't absolutely need the functioning stopwatch. At least not for the extra $400 (and extra trouble) that needs to be invested (and STILL get wrong subdial spacing in most cases). You know, different strokes for different folks. I was merely trying to open a discussion. It was YOU who started singing the gospel here.

And if you think ANY rep is more than 90% accurate compared to a genuine IWC, Omega or Rolex... you need a reality check, quickly. The best reps might be good but they're just Chinese funny watches.

Now could you explain me what reasoning here goes against common knowledge of "experts". And who are the "experts"... other than you of course? Thanks.

[Quarks]

If preowned gen could be obtained for $800, I would def. save and get that. No way a rep (serviced or not) could compare with a gen imo especially so when the price difference is not far apart. If you like it that much, a gen is the way to go.

[Richard Tracy]

I was merely trying to open a discussion. It was YOU who started singing the gospel here.

And if you think ANY rep is more than 90% accurate compared to a genuine IWC, Omega or Rolex... you need a reality check, quickly. The best reps might be good but they're just Chinese funny watches.

Now could you explain me what reasoning here goes against common knowledge of "experts". And who are the "experts"... other than you of course? Thanks.

Hmmm still the barbs,.. However I will ignore them ... for now.

All I will say in return to all the manovering, is read your own posts, which about this issue

are many.

You have been stating some opinions regarding the 7750 that are based

zero personal experience, and evidently as much research.

If a noob posts such, who cares, ? But a respected member of our boards such as you,

carries a weight that as I said before, can mislead a person, that may have, as I do,

a love for chronographs, which would rob them of the great experiences, many

have had with them, when we either took a chance, did some study, or spent

a bit more money for some piece of mind, but most of all going in not expecting

guarantees.

If you can't afford the loss, then don't play the game.

Me, I'm no expert, though I have owned at least ten times as many replicas as have you,

over many years.

I need not be an expert however, thanks to some pretty significant information from a person

that I, and many others here and elsewhere, consider one.

This information is available, for anyone that takes the time to read it,.. I guess

it will have to come to you.

If you don't respect it, then I have nothing left to say.

From the The Zigmeister Libraries, which I give a whole hell of a lot more weight than your

fear and notions about these, "Chinese Funny Watches".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Movement review - Newest Asian 7750 copy - running seconds at 6

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=1414

Conclusions

Question is, was this movement developed specifically for the Daytona, and is this why the quality is on par with an ETA 7750? Or is this the new standard of Asian 7750’s we can expect to see. My Omega BA is not equipped with this version of the 7750, and so far this is the only one I have seen.

How widespread is this movement, I don’t know, for the record this watch is from Andrew.

Many questions answered, some more not answered…but I think this and the new 6497-2 are the way of the future, 2006 is only 3 weeks old, and already things are looking up…

Now if these were available in the 7750 and 7753 layout, and you could source the movement alone, I would be the first to buy them, service them, and install them in place of my existing Asian 7750’s…that’s how good I think they are.

Thanks for reading my thoughts and comments.

RG

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Movement review - Asian Copy of the ETA 6497-2, Correct bridges, correct 21,600 Beat, closest to PAM movement so far

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=1413

Conclusions.

I think it’s a great movement, you can see for yourself. It runs at 21,600 BPH (6 ticks per second, vs 5 on the ETA –1 model).

Thanks for reading and looking.

RG

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Movement review - Venus Handwind 175 Chronograph, It's not a "Nouvell Lemania 1874" it's a Venus 175

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=1419

his is the manual wind movement incorrectly referred as the “Lemania (Lemaninia) 1874” or whatever they are calling it this week. It’s actually a copy of the Venus 175 movement (thanks to Pip for pointing this out).

So the general concensus has always been that the Asian 7750 is troubesome and no good, but this movement is great and bullet proof (that's the general opinion, not mine, I personally like the Asian 7750).

If the 7750 is clean and all the parts are on the right side of the tolerances, and it’s running good, then the 7750 is the Mack (or Volvo) truck, rugged, tough and keeps running ( mine has been flawless for 6 months now).

The Venus, if clean, adjusted properly etc, is a good movement, but it’s more like a Ferrari engine, great runner - if the carbs are all synchronized, the valves adjusted just right, and your only going to the store and not for a long drive.

I think the Venus will last a lifetime, but unlike the 7750, it needs to be perfect, clean, oiled just right, and all adjustments exact, otherwise it may stop running.

But that’s only my opinion, and we all know what opinions are like…everyone has one.

RG

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You evidently have issues with Chinese watches, period, not just the movement, but

the whole package, including price ? This points to a conclusion, that I don't need to state.

All I will say is that I will never view your Weekend Wrist Check the same way.

You are absolutely right, if you compare replicas to lower priced genuine watches like

Seiko, Citizen ect ect ect,.. but those are not what I love, I love replicas, for many complex

reasons, and mechanical movement in particular,.. that is why I am here,..

How about you ?

[JJFlash]

My most favorite movement for chrono's is still the Venus 175.

Of course not applicable for Daytona's.

My personal opinion is that the Asian 7750 in the Daytona, even with good lube service, is still a time bomb.

The gear arrangement stresses the movement to the max.

All quite delicately balanced.

Only a matter of time before it goes belly up.

Pam's with the seconds at 9:00 o'clock is less stressful, and more likely to survive longer.

That said I got them all ticking away in the wnders.

Old Asian, new improved Asian.

Just a few of each as an experiment.

As they say, time will tell the longevity of these movements in these configurations.

They are yet too new to know for sure.

[By-Tor]

Hmmm still the barbs,.. However I will ignore them ... for now.

All I will say in return to all the manovering, is read your own posts, which about this issue

are many.

You have been stating some opinions regarding the 7750 that are based

zero personal experience, and evidently as much research.

Everybody knows that unserviced 7750 is a unstable movement. It's a known "fact". I don't need to buy the movement, I trust what plenty of other members have stated and experienced. I also think $500 for a rep is too much. But that's my personal opinion only. You don't seem to accept it.

If a noob posts such, who cares, ? But a respected member of our boards such as you,

carries a weight that as I said before, can mislead a person, that may have, as I do,

What the hell are you talking about? I was merely stating that $500 for a rep is too much trouble and cost for me... PERSONALLY. And I was trying to open a discussion about different and cheaper alternatives. What in this syntax that you don't understand? And what's "misleading" about that? Pray tell.

a love for chronographs, which would rob them of the great experiences, many

have had with them, when we either took a chance, did some study, or spent

a bit more money for some piece of mind, but most of all going in not expecting

guarantees. If you can't afford the loss, then don't play the game.

You crack me up. I was only saying in my original article that I _personally_ would be glad if rep manufacturers could produce visually accurate cheaper rep chronograph watches with non-working subdials.

Then you jump in and start lecturing me... and telling that I "mislead" the members. I wonder why you continuously miss the point, or do you _purposefully_ miss the point?

Me, I'm no expert, though I have owned at least ten times as many replicas as have you,

over many years.

<sigh>

I need not be an expert however,

thanks to some pretty significant information from a person

that I, and many others here and elsewhere, consider one.

This information is available, for anyone that takes the time to read it,.. I guess

it will have to come to you.

If you don't respect it, then I have nothing left to say.

From the Ziggy Libraries, which I give a whole hell of a lot more weight than your

fear and notions about these, "Chinese Funny Watches".

Ziggy is a friend. And I respect him a lot... and I have read his reviews many times. Your point?

[Ziggy quotes deleted]

You evidently have issues with Chinese watches, period, not just the movement, but

the whole package, including price ?

What "issues"? They're FAKES. I love reps, that's why I'm here. But unlike you I'm just not living under the false illusion that these watches are 90% accurate. They are not. They're novelty items, and in my opinion investing lots of money on a rep isn't worth it. You seem to have a problem with my opinion.

I don't understand what your point is... and why you're trying to provocate something. Honestly.

[archibald]

Schweeeet! This thread is a threfer, covers 3 of my favorite rep rant topics--day-date chronos, the value of reps and genuines, and the practice of quantifying accuracy with percentiles.

As far as some "fake watches" being overpriced: I think most genuine watches are overpriced, and all bad fake watches are overpriced no matter how much they cost. Excellent fake watches, on the other hand, are almost never overpriced even if they cost a few hundred bucks.

By-Tor asks why rep makers just don't freeze the dials. God, only knows but a good guess is that they think your average street cart replica buyer will feel gyped if those subdials don't do something and that they don't know what the hell a chronograph is anyway. They may be right, but that doesn't solve the problem of the semi-serious rep collector, does it, since probably most of us regard ourselves as a tad more sophisticated than people who source their watches more than 10 feet from the hot dog guy. What's scary is how much money i would have spent if some of the otherwise nice looking day-date chrono reps of interesting watches had accuratel marked, if funtionless subdials. I'd be in the pporhouse if those day-date chronos had funntioning automatic chrnos, even asia 7750's--A Picot Le Plongeur Chrono w/ a working stopwatch? [censored], how much do you want for it? I'm in. And on and on and on. But, alas, i think supply and demand will continue to kick our asses on this one. We're just going to have to be satisfied witht he watche sthey think they can sell as working chronos--rolex, panerai, maybe an IWC or Vacheron thrown in. Same ol' same ol'.

As far as accuracy goes. I wish those who insist on expressing accuracy as percentile would have a vote to determine what every part is worth exactly, percentile wise. The way it stands now, saying a watch is 96, 96, 99, or 83 percent accurate is idiotic and nonsensical. It would be much easier if I could ask, "How much is a misspaced subdial worth?" and get the answer "Oh, that's easy, Arch: 4.3%." or "Ooops, that "officne" costs that rep 11.45%."

[By-Tor]

By-Tor asks why rep makers just don't freeze the dials. God, only knows but a good guess is that they think your average street cart replica buyer will feel gyped if those subdials don't do something and that they don't know what the hell a chronograph is anyway.

True. That probably explains the day/date chronos.

[tickertp]

Since I can always buy an accurate timepiece for a few bucks, for me watches have to otherwise be FUN! That means bring a smile to my face!

I'm irrational as hell....

My first "good" rep was a Navitimer, quartz, bought 10 years ago. Still looks great, stopwatch works perfectly and has a neat dial. I don't remember what I paid for it. But a rose-gold gen Patek that my wife got me for my birthday some years ago is perfect, too. As is my auto Daytona rep, or 1973 Omega MegaQuartz that I'm wearing at the moment.

What I like about this board, and others, is seeing what gets watch guys excited, smiling. Some are really anal and are struck by the challenge of the 100% rep. Others like to wear something they couldn't otherwise afford.

I don't have any reasons or standards other than buying quality pieces and enjoying them until they get boring or a flaw bothers me. Then I give them to clients or sell them and am on the hunt for the next watch.

By the way, I've purchased gen 7750 chronos by Hamilton for under $500, excellent 70's mechanical Seiko chronos for under $100, a genuine mechanical Omega for $85 (on the bay), a 1920's Elgin for $50, and a real nice 1680 rep on the board for $125. If that isn't fun, I'm not a watch nut....

[Richard Tracy]

By-Tor, say what you want here,.. but unless you go back through all three board and do some

heavy editing, your words speak for themselves.

Regarding this latest plea...

You made the inquiry, I posted my opinion, politely, {As always, until provoked.}

My opinions are based on The Zigmeister and personal experience,..and your's ?

Hey, do yourself a favor and preface your next chronograph post

"Opinions wanted, Except Richard Tracy's."

I would respect that more than what you pulled here.

[By-Tor]

By-Tor, say what you want here,.. but unless you go back through all three board and do some

heavy editing, your words speak for themselves.

Regarding this latest plea...

You made the inquiry, I posted my opinion, politely, {As always, until provoked.}

My opinions are based on Ziggy and personal experience,..and your's ?

Hey, do yourself a favor and preface your next chronograph post

"Opinions wanted, Except Richard Tracy's."

I would respect that more than what you pulled here.

Could someone tell me what what I supposedly "pulled" here.

Maybe I insulted the movement in his watch? If I did... that wasn't my intention, honestly. <shakes head>

Edit: Hmm, maybe my original post was stupid and provocative, I dunno. Or maybe we both had a bad hair day? I just don't see myself "misleading" anyone there.

Edited April 2, 2006 by By-Tor

[kasigi]

I really hate the idea of frozen dials, I would never, ever buy a rep which has them.

But I'm not a fan of chronos anyway, so not much chance of me doing that.

[r11co]

I used to think I was 'into' chronos, but three multi-dial watches later I realised I did nothing with them so what the heck was the point.

At the risk of offending someone, I believe their appeal lies in the 'more is better' mindset. The latest lunacy is the Omega Planet Oceans that have appeared with chronos. Obviously appealing to public demand, but a 'divers' watch with chronos makes about as much functional sense as a under-water trouser press.

I like the Breitling Navitimer and IWC reps because they are close to the real thing because of their use of 7750 movements. I'd never touch the Daytona because it's been cludged.

[slay]

I really hate the idea of frozen dials, I would never, ever buy a rep which has them.

But I'm not a fan of chronos anyway, so not much chance of me doing that.

K.

would you rather have something ugly and false like this (and remember, if someone asks you, why its called "daytona" say "because of the famous perpetual calender atomic clock which is from daytona and very famous!!"):

Edited April 2, 2006 by slay

[By-Tor]

At the risk of offending someone, I believe their appeal lies in the 'more is better' mindset. The latest lunacy is the Omega Planet Oceans that have appeared with chronos. Obviously appealing to public demand, but a 'divers' watch with chronos makes about as much functional sense as a under-water trouser press.

I like chronographs mainly for their looks, not for functionality. That's why I wouldn't have a problem with visually good (and reliable) chrono rep with frozen stopwatch (if the price were good). At least over those horrid date/calendar chronos that get produced. Some people might disagree.

If you REALLY like some watch model (like Navitimer) of course you should buy the 7750 version and get it serviced. But there are lots of models that I could buy just for fun... if the price were around $100.

That was actually the whole point of my original post. We all have different personal preferences. Perhaps a average Joe would look at the chronograph watch differently. I first look at the subdial spacing, correctly centered stopwatch and subregisters. Maybe the average guy would just be satisfied if the pushers do at least *something*... like change date or month in the false calendar subdials. And besides, many of those chronos have the stopwatch hand running as a big seconds hand (which is a major no-no for me).

But you're absolutely correct: very few people use the "special" options in their watches. They are there just for looks 99% of the time.

[Ethan]

Richard and By-Tor -

I think that the issue here is that we all participate in this forum because we have some passion for watches; in particular replica watches. Those who have been here as long as you guys likely have a LOT of passion for watches (or, just no life whatsoever ). Amongst the serious there are always sensitivities triggered by opinion and specific language; buttons to be pushed, if you will. Fundamentally I suppose the issues here stem from the fact that there are numerous camps in this hobby; those who see replica watches as By-Tor does, as a novelty, and those who hold a good rep in slightly higher regard, as Richard does (no offence intended to you gents if I've assessed this inaccurately; I acknowledge that I don't know either of you well enough to do a good analytical job here, but I wanted to try to put some perspective on this issue for the new folks). Email is a crummy communications tool where subtext and nuance is concerned, and forum posting is no better. Maybe the case here? I've read both of your posts on multiple forums for a while now, and have great deal of respect for both of you; I hope (for the selfish sake of the forum members and our little community) that the two of you can agree to disagree.

I have always assumed, and perhaps wrongly, that when we talk about accuracy that we are referring to visual accuracy, rather than mechanical accuracy. As such (and to get back to what By-Tor was asking in the first place) I would likely not purchase an inaccurate rep, no matter what the functionality was. At the same time, the thing has got to work, doesn't it? Especially if it is an interesting watch in the first place! I have always loved the Graham Chronofighter, (now THAT is a bizarre-looking watch) but I would never buy it because the subdials are frozen. As the watch is so unique, it's bound to get scrutinized as soon as you throw it on your wrist; "Hey, what's that? Can I see? What do those little dials do?" Yikes! Same with my Navitimer. With the subdials and bezel slide-rule, people are always grabbing it and looking VERY closely at it. Once in a while, without noticing the seconds at nine sub, someone will say, "How come the second hand doesn't move?" I explain that it's a stopwatch, and occasionally am requested to show them how the whole thing works, slide-rule, chrono and all. It would be pretty embarrassing if everything was frozen... despite it's accuracy. No, I'm fine with spending just under $300 on a very, very close rep, and another $275 on a complete service. The watch works great, and with this particular Navitimer, I'm well under the '10% of the gen' mark.

And before you say it Richard, yes, I do love a party line...

[By-Tor]

Thanks Ethan, good post.

[slay]

At the risk of offending someone, I believe their appeal lies in the 'more is better' mindset. The latest lunacy is the Omega Planet Oceans that have appeared with chronos. Obviously appealing to public demand, but a 'divers' watch with chronos makes about as much functional sense as a under-water trouser press.

why does a chrono function on a divers watch not make sense? you can stop the time you are underwater! i think its a very helpful function for diving!

[Richard Tracy]

Ethan, brilliant ! A single slice to through to the nerve center.

Are you part Japanese ? If not, I give you honorary membership !