High end rep: should it have a new movement?

[Rob1]

I recently bought one of the new rep watches that have caused quite a buzz here in the last couple of months. I decided to have the watch serviced because it was keeping poor time, and when the watch was being stripped down it was obvious that the movement (a genuine ETA) was quite old with lots of wear on the inside of the mainspring barrel. Being quite new to rep watches I'm not sure if this is a normal situation. When we buy rep watches should we expect the movement to be new?

[Watchmeister]

If you paid a hefty Swiss price you should be getting a new movement. Unfortunately, it happens more often than people know. Since watches are made in large runs I suspect all of whatever you bought are using old movements or at least parts from cannibalized old movements. In itself old movements can be just fine but you have to be sure they are (and were) properly serviced. If parts really are worn out due to prior neglect as most parts should last for many years on a properly serviced watch than ask the dealer whether to send it back or get it serviced and then get a credit or money back from him. Other people may disagree.

[crystalcranium]

I recently bought one of the new rep watches that have caused quite a buzz here in the last couple of months. I decided to have the watch serviced because it was keeping poor time, and when the watch was being stripped down it was obvious that the movement (a genuine ETA) was quite old with lots of wear on the inside of the mainspring barrel. Being quite new to rep watches I'm not sure if this is a normal situation. When we buy rep watches should we expect the movement to be new?

That's not something you should be satisfied with. If the dealer is a reasonable chap he should replace the watch. As far as I know, it's not SOP to recycle old movements into new watches but....who knows what the rationale of the assembler was. It could be he needed one more movement to complete a run of watches and decided to slip an old one he had on the shelf in. Luck of the draw in a ZERO controlled production industry.

[Rob1]

Thanks for the comments. I've just emailed the dealer and will let you know what he says.

[RWG Technical]

Here is the mainspring barrel in question...

See my post on surplus movements/lack of servicing for more details.

RG

[Pix]

Well... Is that a new way to lie by omission ?

You buy a gen movement, you get one, but sorry it's a second hand one...(nobody's perfect )

Some people (the manufacturers ?) have no limit in feeding the little white lies tale...

[JJFlash]

I know people do not like to disclose their dealer when these problems occur.

However, it would be a benefit to the community to know the source.

This problem is generally no reflection upon the dealer himself.

The manufacturer slipped this used movement in with the usual production.

Noting the source would alert forum members to carefully check their recent purchases.

I recall a few years back, Paul had a large number of used / rusted ETA movements.

If I remember correctly, this was promptly disclosed in this forum and restitution was made.

I would want to know if this is an isolated instance or a harbinger of events to come.

[Watchmeister]

I am betting harbinger of things to come. As the runs of reps now hit 1,000 at a time there must be some limitation on new movements available.

[Pugwash]

I am betting harbinger of things to come. As the runs of reps now hit 1,000 at a time there must be some limitation on new movements available.

This will be why they run 1000 cases and sell some with Asian insides but without ARed Sapphire.

[Rob1]

I know people do not like to disclose their dealer when these problems occur.

However, it would be a benefit to the community to know the source.

This problem is generally no reflection upon the dealer himself.

The manufacturer slipped this used movement in with the usual production.

Noting the source would alert forum members to carefully check their recent purchases.

I recall a few years back, Paul had a large number of used / rusted ETA movements.

If I remember correctly, this was promptly disclosed in this forum and restitution was made.

I would want to know if this is an isolated instance or a harbinger of events to come.

I've not heard back from the dealer yet (it's only been a few hours since emailing him) so will wait until I can report a full picture. As I understand it there is one one factory which produces each rep watch, so I think it is better to judge the merits of a dealer by seeing how problems are dealt with rather than whether there is a problem with a watch in the first place. If we want the highest level of quality control from the factory I think we should be prepared to pay gen prices. My watch could have easily been passed to any one of the dealers here, so I don't think my case is in any way a poor reflection on the dealer I used for this purchase.

[Guest TTK]

As I understand it there is one one factory which produces each rep watch,

Your understanding is wrong, there are many factories making many different reps, hence the reason you can see so many differences in what essentially appear to be the same watch.....one manf'r brings the initial model....others copy it....sometimes inn the process making it better...most often....worse.....!

As for movements......yes.....manf'rs will buy up ALL movements needed for a production run....and included in those might be used movements......you pays your money you take the risk.....!

[Rob1]

Your understanding is wrong, there are many factories making many different reps, hence the reason you can see so many differences in what essentially appear to be the same watch.....one manf'r brings the initial model....others copy it....sometimes inn the process making it better...most often....worse.....!

As for movements......yes.....manf'rs will buy up ALL movements needed for a production run....and included in those might be used movements......you pays your money you take the risk.....!

Sorry, I don't think I explained myself very clearly - I assume there is only one factory making the current version of the Steelfish? Obviously there will be any number of different factories making the wide range of rep watches that are available. If there is only one factory making the Steelfish then the dealers here will have no choice but to source the watches there, and as TTK says, you pays your money and you take the risk. The test of a dealer is what the response is when things occasionally go wrong.

[crystalcranium]

Sorry, I don't think I explained myself very clearly - I assume there is only one factory making the current version of the Steelfish? Obviously there will be any number of different factories making the wide range of rep watches that are available. If there is only one factory making the Steelfish then the dealers here will have no choice but to source the watches there, and as TTK says, you pays your money and you take the risk. The test of a dealer is what the response is when things occasionally go wrong.

One factory eh? Watch the video and be prepared to have your notions of gleaming replica producing factories blown out of the water!

http://culture.hautehorlogerie.org/en/haut...iting-1832.html

EDIT: Ah [censored], I think the link is broken!!

Anyway, no factories my friend, just Uncle Joe and Aunt Jane putting together parts under a drafting lamp....just like the couple next door.

[rsv123]

Sorry, I don't think I explained myself very clearly - I assume there is only one factory making the current version of the Steelfish? Obviously there will be any number of different factories making the wide range of rep watches that are available. If there is only one factory making the Steelfish then the dealers here will have no choice but to source the watches there, and as TTK says, you pays your money and you take the risk. The test of a dealer is what the response is when things occasionally go wrong.

I think what TTK is saying is that there could be multiple factories making a rep of a particular original watch - say the Omega SMP for example. However, there will usually be discernable differences between reps of the same watch made by different factories (eg. one factory will making the watch with hands that are too short, one will have the wrong datewheel, etc.)

[Guest TTK]

One factory eh? Watch the video and be prepared to have your notions of gleaming replica producing factories blown out of the water!

http://culture.hautehorlogerie.org/en/haut...iting-1832.html

EDIT: Ah [censored], I think the link is broken!!

Anyway, no factories my friend, just Uncle Joe and Aunt Jane putting together parts under a drafting lamp....just like the couple next door.

@CC......I think you'll find that these are small assembly 'houses'......mostly found in Thailand.....a lot of stuff is brought into Thailand in small parts....movements followed by cases / dials / bracelets etc etc......then assembled in these family homes......the main factories are still there.....some doing work to completion.....some only making specific parts...dials / cases etc etc......!

[crystalcranium]

@CC......I think you'll find that these are small assembly 'houses'......mostly found in Thailand.....a lot of stuff is brought into Thailand in small parts....movements followed by cases / dials / bracelets etc etc......then assembled in these family homes......the main factories are still there.....some doing work to completion.....some only making specific parts...dials / cases etc etc......!

The vid showed an "assembly shop" in Guangzhou which was a back room in a residence where parts from a variety of sources were put together. Such a small decentralized, clandestine operation such as this was described as being able to produce as many as 1000 watches per week with thousands of such operations going on all over the city. As I recall, the "raid" on this residence was by a Cartier executive with the muscle of the local police probably doing their good deed for the day in fighting the counterfeit trade. You are correct that the video did not address the production of cases, movements, dials etc, only the construction of watches.

[Pugwash]

http://culture.hautehorlogerie.org/en/haut...iting-1832.html

EDIT: Ah [censored], I think the link is broken!!

That's what happens when you copy the text and not the link.

This is the link you're after: http://culture.hautehorlogerie.org/en/haut...iting-1832.html

[Rob1]

The point I'm trying to make (without much success!) that for a watch like the Steelfish currently there will only be one source (whether that be a hi-tech factory or a number of backrooms all assembling the same set of components). Therefore the RWG dealers will not be able to shop around to get models with the best quality assurance. They simply get what is available from that one source. The dealers could, of course, add some value to their part of the process by closely inspecting each watch they sell to make sure that old & worn movements are returned to the source for some other person to buy.

[rsv123]

The dealers could, of course, add some value to their part of the process by closely inspecting each watch they sell to make sure that old & worn movements are returned to the source for some other person to buy.

But this is presuming that they aren't drop shipping and ever get to lay eyes on the product they ship... I think you have every right to get a new watch, or at the very least a new movement in exchange for your old one. I can see this happening more and more, as (i) they sell more watches and (ii) the people they sell them to are less likely to open the caseback for a look.

[Rob1]

But this is presuming that they aren't drop shipping and ever get to lay eyes on the product they ship... I think you have every right to get a new watch, or at the very least a new movement in exchange for your old one. I can see this happening more and more, as (i) they sell more watches and (ii) the people they sell them to are less likely to open the caseback for a look.

I'm assuming that most of the high volume dealers drop ship, with a few smaller dealers inspecting (and some testing) the watches they dispatch?

[Pugwash]

the people they sell them to are less likely to open the caseback for a look.

This wouldn't have been visible with a caseback tool. I get the impression that it was only once The Zigmeister opened the barrel that it was obvious this was a PoS movement.

[rsv123]

This wouldn't have been visible with a caseback tool. I get the impression that it was only once The Zigmeister opened the barrel that it was obvious this was a PoS movement.

Ok, so we could have been getting movements like this for a while...?

[rsv123]

I'm assuming that most of the high volume dealers drop ship, with a few smaller dealers inspecting (and some testing) the watches they dispatch?

I guess that based on Pugwash's post above there is not much chance of the dealers being able to easily spot these movements without some disassembly - which is highly unlikey - before they ship a watch. I guess they need to stand by what they are shipping out, and tell their suppliers they aren't happy with used parts/movements being used.

[richard_uk]

That's what happens when you copy the text and not the link.

This is the link you're after: http://culture.hautehorlogerie.org/en/haut...iting-1832.html

Interesting article, we moan about quality control but what chance do they have when they have factories full of, what looked like, 10 year old children putting the watches together.

[Pugwash]

Interesting article, we moan about quality control but what chance do they have when they have factories full of, what looked like, 10 year old children putting the watches together.

They looked like young Chinese women as opposed to kids.