Guest avitt Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 (edited) When pros engrave stuff like that they use stencils or a pantograph driven by a stylus riding in a stencil. NOBODY could do that freehand, I don't think. Agreed. My case back isn't genuine (I don't think), and it wasn't significantly overworked (with the exception of me buffing out several deep tool marks). But I do think that the characters were stamped. What makes me believe this is the texture of the bottom of the letters. I know that common mechanical engraving techniques include the use of a spinning cutter (typically used on plastics or soft metals), which would leave the base of the letters looking smooth or machined. The other technique is to drag a diamond stylus, but this in not effective for making wide characters and symbols. I'm think that the modern MBW casebacks are laser etched (just like the other case markings). Edited May 22, 2007 by avitt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted May 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 You are exactly right and that is exactly what is wrong about the MBW casebacks (they are etched using lasers, which were not available 30 years ago). But I have seen enough fairly accurate rep casebacks (including yours) that look much more like the vintage gens than mine does. And, while it does make a difference, I do not think these nicer casebacks got that way as a result of sanding & polishing alone. There must have been some other tool or process involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polexpete Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 quote name='freddy333' date='May 21 2007, 11:32 PM' post='250765'] fx -- That is the same problem I had with the diamond Dremel engraving bits I used on the other caseback. Between the 'wobbly' nature of the rotating Dremel shaft and the width of the tip of the bits, I completely bullocks up the caseback. Fortunately, it was scrap. But the experience tells me the standard Dremel is not the correct tool for this type of re-engraving work. What are people using to do this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polexpete Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 I'm starting to think that maybe I have a genuine case back No chance, you gotta polish that baby then maybe... P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polexpete Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 I'm starting to think that maybe I have a genuine case back Forget it, that baby needs some serious polishing to get it anywhere near.... P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest avitt Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Forget it, that baby needs some serious polishing to get it anywhere near.... P. Huh? Pete...slowly back away from that crack pipe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polexpete Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Huh? Pete...slowly back away from that crack pipe... Yeah sorry technical gliches... over to you man...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted May 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Huh? Pete...slowly back away from that crack pipe... I have to agree with Avitt. Pete, your caseback looks exactly like the first one I modded some time back. The idea was to remove some of the surface details and make it look worn and aged. So I sanded and polished the original lettering (as I think you have done), which did help a bit, but it still looked like a modern (laser) etching that has been sanded/polished. A small improvement, but the lines that make up each letter are too narrow and the corners are too well defined. A move in the right direction, but no where near the same quality of Avitt's or some of the other members' casebacks I have seen posted here. Still, even the best of them are not able to replicate the sunkin (stamped) lettering of a gen. At this point, I think this will have to be handled in two parts. The first will be to find the tool/procedure to soften, widen & deepen the lettering and to smooth out the bottom of each letter (laser etching leaves a rough, whitish texture in the base of each letter, while gen lettering is nice and smooth (or slightly rough - due to wear). The second will be to find a way to replicate the slightly sunkin appearance around most of the letters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 (edited) You won't replicate the 'stamping' process....with anything other than a hydraulic brake press.....these casebacks stamps are formed in a one step process which stamps the maker's information......the splines for caseback removal and the flanges that allow for internal spacing of the movement......all done in the one process.....with a one ton brake press or more....the additional Comex name and numbers were batch done at the time of the contract between Comex and Rolex.....hence the limited number in the marketplace.....the 'blanks' are then turned over to the lathe guys to remove the excess material and cut the threads and flanges that help with water resistance and to screw up the back.....internal markings...are done with a small press similar to the one used to press VIN numbers.....! PS....using a 'manual' process.....means that you will not achieve uniformity in depth of penetration ...... the die(s) you use would have to be made up as a whole.....if you are considering getting individual letters.....they'll be all over the place in terms of depth and alignment.....! Edited May 23, 2007 by TTK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polexpete Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 You won't replicate the 'stamping' process....with anything other than a hydraulic brake press.....these casebacks stamps are formed in a one step process which stamps the maker's information......the splines for caseback removal and the flanges that allow for internal spacing of the movement......all done in the one process.....with a one ton brake press or more....the additional Comex name and numbers were batch done at the time of the contract between Comex and Rolex.....hence the limited number in the marketplace.....the 'blanks' are then turned over to the lathe guys to remove the excess material and cut the threads and flanges that help with water resistance and to screw up the back.....internal markings...are done with a small press similar to the one used to press VIN numbers.....! Spot on. And your dial is way more likely to be a giveaway before your caseback is ever seen. Enjoy! I'm gonna watch the footy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted May 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Avitt -- The more I look at the lettering on your caseback, it is pretty clear that the stroke width (the thickness of the lines that make up each letter) is wider than mine. Looking at the double-quote marks (to the right of the 'R' in the word OYSTER), I can see that the lines are exactly the same length and in the same location as mine, but yours are deeper, wider and a bit rounder. Since we have the same DRSD caseback, I have to assume that the previous owner widened the lettering with some type of tool and was able to trace each letter exactly. Based on my very amateurish results with a diamond engraving bit on my Dremel, I have to assume that they either used something that allows much greater control over movement or it was done by a professional engraver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsons Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 I've thought about using a rubber pointy rotary plolishing bit to deepen & widen the standard MBW engraving. It should be a step in the right direction with polishing paste. There are a few different versions: http://www.widgetsupply.com/page/WS/PROD/d...cylinder/D-GU08 http://www.widgetsupply.com/page/WS/PROD/d...cylinder/D-DY04 http://www.toolsforless.com/product/2848.html Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted May 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Hmmmm...........very interesting. My Dremel came with a similar looking felt-tipped bit, but the tip was larger than the lettering and it just polished the surface. I do not know if rubber will do any better or be able to actually widen the lettering, but since these bits look alot more narrow, they might be able to actually reach down into the letter and smooth out the bottoms a bit. It might be worth a try. I also have one of these stainless steel polishers (I use them to smooth off the drill marks when doing lug holes), but they just roughly polish the surface (I have to go over the area with green rouge afterwards to remove the brushed finish the bits leave). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polexpete Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Avitt, your work is fantastic but that caseback would look so more authentic with a polish. get yerself some rouge and a polisher and give it some. think chrome ok... P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted May 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 PP -- A nice polish would look great on a modern watch, but I think it is out of place on a vintage watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polexpete Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 PP -- A nice polish would look great on a modern watch, but I think it is out of place on a vintage watch. Huh! 30 years wear and here's one you posted yourself. A matt finish is not vintage sorry..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted May 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Pete -- I see your point, but I think you may not be seeing the same difference I see when I compare your sanded/polished caseback to the gen in the photo I posted. To my eye, the lettering on the gen looks alot more like the lettering on Avitt's caseback, which is wider, deeper, smoother, rounder than the lettering on either mine or yours. Yes, you did a great job of wearing down the lettering, but the remaining lettering still looks too modern. And that is the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted May 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Yesterday, a friend recommended one of the craziest ideas I have ever heard, but after thinking about it overnight I am beginning to wonder if it makes sense. Here is the idea -- If you think of the groove of each letter in a caseback like a groove in a vinyl record and then picture the v-shaped stylus running along the groove. What happens when you run the stylus back and forth over the same section of the groove? It widens, softens, deepens and becomes less etched. So, my friend suggested, why not take a larger stylus (a small 'finish' nail) and just run it back and forth along each letter. Then, of course, follow with a polish (possibly with one of those rubber Dremel bits). Is this insanity or genius? Thoughts? Update -- I just tried the nail procedure on a scrap caseback and it could work, but only in the steady and talented hands of an artist like Ziggy. the nail does widen, round and smooth the lettering, but I was unable to keep the nail inside the groove of the letter (which is the same problem I had with the diamond engraving bits on the Dremel). This illustrates one of the other problems with modern engraving -- it creates a much shallower groove than the original vintage stamping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest avitt Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 There is already a pretty good polish on the back, Pete. The pictures above were taken with flat light in a lightbox, and tend to show every micro-abrasion. Here is an older photo, which gives a different representation: Given that it's supposed to be a 35 year old watch, I'm pretty pleased with the appearance. Freddy, I'm convinced that there was no additional work done on my case back. It shows no signs of hand engraving. You have to remember that this rep is from a different generation than today's MBWs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted May 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Freddy, I'm convinced that there was no additional work done on my case back. It shows no signs of hand engraving. You have to remember that this rep is from a different generation than today's MBWs. You may be right. But I am sure there is a way to replicate the original stamped appearance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polexpete Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 There is already a pretty good polish on the back, Pete. The pictures above were taken with flat light in a lightbox, and tend to show every micro-abrasion. Here is an older photo, which gives a different representation: Given that it's supposed to be a 35 year old watch, I'm pretty pleased with the appearance. Freddy, I'm convinced that there was no additional work done on my case back. It shows no signs of hand engraving. You have to remember that this rep is from a different generation than today's MBWs. Thank you that's what i wanted to see. Again nice work Avitt you should be very pleased.... P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsons Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 feddy, I think you're right.....it may be worth a try. The price is right and I can't see any way it could make things worse or damage the case back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 How about using acid to remove some material from around the letters followed by a polish. I've never used acid on stainless steel but I presume its possible with the correct variety. Obviously you'd have to keep the acid away from the threads on the other side. Another possibility would be a sand blast with very fine sand, then a polish afterwards. A third is I've seen tummblers that jewellery makers use to remove burrs and casting roughness from sand cast items. Once again you would need to protect the threads but it could be an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted May 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 Interesting ideas, Logan. But considering how much damage I did to my scrap parts with an engraving bit and a nail, I can only imagine what a mess I would make with acid or a sand blaster. Also, I do not see how you could restrict the action of either acid or sand to affect only the inner grooves of the lettering without damaging the adjacent areas. But very clever ideas just the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted May 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2007 Houston, all systems are GO! I just received my custom stamp (in case you have forgotten by now, I was searching for a way to replicate the sunkin appearance of the lettering on vintage Comex and Sea-Dweller casebacks). Here are pictures of my tool (well, not my tool - this one is always hard) And here is a sample of what a stamped number looks like from my initial round of testing of stamping quarters (I used quarters because they are close to the same thickness and tensile strength as a stainless steel caseback and I have more quarters than scrap casebacks) As you can see, it is quite nice and I think it addresses all of the issues discussed throughout this thread. The impression left by the stamp, which was produced with 3 successive (moderate) whacks with a 5-pound sledgehammer, has all the hallmarks (no pun intended) of the added-on numbering on some of the Comex casebacks. This is a recent example from Antiquorum My initial tests make 3 things clearThe original (gen) lettering (especially, the Comex number that was added later) was stampedI will need to locate some additional scrap casebacks to perfect the technique, but a hand stamp can produce a clear, properly aligned print in hard metalThe caseback should probably be placed on top of a concave metal form to maintain alignment and to limit the amount of collateral deflection should you use a bit too much force (2 of my previous quarters will no longer fit through a coin slot)But the important news is that the technique works. Like anything new, it will take some tweaking to get the final result just right. But that just takes time. So anyone know where I can get a handful of blank casebacks for cheap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.