milsub5517 Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Well, may be with minor modifications. Please specify the seller as well. I see that Davidsen has a few up-graded PAM's: 005, 055 Ti and 177h. All have Swiss movements, sapphire crystals with AR coating, super-lumes dials and hands..but i hear that font quality is a hit or miss. Any other sellers/suggestiions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 All have tradeoffs--Davidesen has super lume, but a horrible dial font and hit and miss fit and finish. Except for the bezel markers, I think the latest issues of the subs are probably the best out of the box--decent font and mag, AR, crowns. Anyone who knows what the bezel markers should look like are going to call you out on the cg, etc. anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAMman Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Davidsens stuff is the least accurate in terms of interchangeability with genuine items. I agree that fit and finish is hit and miss (mostly miss). Look at his crownguards and levers for example. The CGs seldom seat onto the cases snugly and the corners protrude above the top edge of the case. The CG levers on the H series are too short and don't close down against the cases. When you combine this with cases and dials that are bigger than the gens and the standard reps I really cannot see what the attraction is. The overall build quality of the normal rep is much better and they are more accurate and more easily modded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 It still is the 050. Andrew or Josh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 It still is the 050. Andrew or Josh. Really ? This one ? http://www.ttwristwatch.com/index.php?main...c20d622709740df Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Really ? This one ? http://www.ttwristwatch.com/index.php?main...c20d622709740df Yes, that one. Spot a flaw if you can. Also the numbers on the caseback are correct. That watch would foolish everyone but a Paneristi owner of the gen. And even in that case, it would not be because of a flaw but because of the genuine unsurpassable quality of finish. (BTW, I had my 050 tested for waterproof by a watchsmith, and it passed the test hands down. Good for swimming and even occasional diving like the 2-3 meters short divings that one may want to go when swimming). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Added: I think that the only reason for the 050 not being more widely known and appreciated is that it is a 40mm, while PAM lovers are usually headed towards larger models... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Yes, that one. Spot a flaw if you can. Also the numbers on the caseback are correct. That watch would foolish everyone but a Paneristi owner of the gen. And even in that case, it would not be because of a flaw but because of the genuine unsurpassable quality of finish. (BTW, I had my 050 tested for waterproof by a watchsmith, and it passed the test hands down. Good for swimming and even occasional diving like the 2-3 meters short divings that one may want to go when swimming). Well that is interresting. I allways assumed that date Panerai were bad reps. I read a lot about date font and cyclop being not accurate. I might want one obsviously if it is so accurate. Thanks for the tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Well that is interresting. I allways assumed that date Panerai were bad reps. I read a lot about date font and cyclop being not accurate. Yes, I too happened to come in knowledge of some date and cyclops issues. I may assure you that the 050 date is the best out-of-the-box of all PAM reps, absolutely comparable with the gen. On the 'old' RWG I read a post by archibald where he said that the date font was different. I have no gen to make a side-by-side comparison, but no gen 050 pic I found on the net showed any real difference. I also have a Finepics datewheel on my 028 rep, it is supposed to be exactly the same as a genuine (knowing Finepics' love for precision noone would doubt it), and on a side-by-side comparison there is no difference between the two fonts. I suppose that the watch that archibald reviewed on the old RWG was an older 050 model, the date might have get improved after it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Sorry double post. Deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Well SsSurfer, thank you very much for these precisions. When I'm done with Rolex, I think I'll go for some Pams with dates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Davidsens stuff is the least accurate in terms of interchangeability with genuine items. I agree that fit and finish is hit and miss (mostly miss). Look at his crownguards and levers for example. The CGs seldom seat onto the cases snugly and the corners protrude above the top edge of the case. The CG levers on the H series are too short and don't close down against the cases. When you combine this with cases and dials that are bigger than the gens and the standard reps I really cannot see what the attraction is. The overall build quality of the normal rep is much better and they are more accurate and more easily modded. I couldn't agree more... I never understood all the hype with Dsn watches BTW the best Pam out of the box is the FERRARI 008 chrono. Identical 99,9% to the genuine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 BTW the best Pam out of the box is the FERRARI 008 chrono. Identical 99,9% to the genuine. V is probably right. It's just that I seem unable to consider the Ferraris as true Panerai watches. (and I also need the date) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 V is probably right. It's just that I seem unable to consider the Ferraris as true Panerai watches. (and I also need the date) Indeed.. they are not exactly Panerai models Anyways.. the old 050 is indeed one of the best Pams but unfortunately the newer models are not that good. The mag and the date font are not as the old ones who were very accurate. THey changed them so unless someone finds a used old one it won;t be that accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 the old 050 is indeed one of the best Pams but unfortunately the newer models are not that good. The mag and the date font are not as the old ones who were very accurate. THey changed them so unless someone finds a used old one it won;t be that accurate. Ouch! This is bad news indeed. I'll hold my 050 fast and close. Thanks for the heads up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Oh my god. Bad news indeed. Seems like my quest for a real good date Pam is not finished. The 104 or 164 are my favourites as a matter of fact (48 would be ok too). I guess there is no chance to find these as rep and accurates, is there ? Cheers Stephane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Oh my god. The 104 or 164 are my favourites as a matter of fact (48 would be ok too). I guess there is no chance to find these as rep and accurates, is there ? Unfortunately, no. They all would need crown-cyclops-datewheel replacements (at least 2 out of those three replacements). And I am just focusing on the most expensive A7750 models. Cheaper models also don't have a correct caseback. I heard on RWI that there are rumors that a new generation of autos with date is close to make appearance (especially a 104). Maybe we'd better wait a while. Even if I doubt that those new models, if any, will hit the market while there are significant numbers of unsold current models. In the meanwhile, I would like to point out that Finepics' or Lello's datewheel, coupled with chieftang cyclops, gives excellent results on date models. But here I am going far away from the out-of-the-box constraint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 it's been a while that the rumor says that great date Pams would arrive soon.... But you are right. Let's wait. I have so many mods ahead right now, that this pam 104/164 can wait anyway. Many thanks for all these precious informations Cheers Stephane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milsub5517 Posted June 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 I still do not understand why it is so difficult to produce correct dials and correct size cases. This is not a rocket science... May be the manufacturers will not be able to come up with the same paint/lume material due to obvious reasons, but font sizes/thickness/case dimensions ...come on. If someone already started production of reps why not make them accurate? Is it really that difficult? Any engineers around who could answer this question?? it's been a while that the rumor says that great date Pams would arrive soon.... But you are right. Let's wait. I have so many mods ahead right now, that this pam 104/164 can wait anyway. Many thanks for all these precious informations Cheers Stephane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Just to ad my thoughts to the 50 discussion: Re: old v new--The 50 I bought in October 2006 from Jos is just as good as my spring of 2005 51, and cam w/ the 28k A7750. Shortly after I got my rep, I did a side by side w/ a friend's gen 50. To my eye, the A's on the rep dial suffer from the same too-low-crossbar issue as the 44mm. I always add a disclaimer: many do not notice this issue. Probably from many hours staring at fonts at high magnification in adobe illustrator, my brain "sees" the A on tiny little watch dial printing, too. On the 40mm pams the text is so small as to be a non flaw. The Zigmeister installed a watchmen cyclops on mine, although it overmagnifies the date, I believe it compensates for the too thin date font on the rep DW to equal 1:1 mag. I bought and installed an OEM guard on mine (reviewed somewhere on the old board, I think). Not worth the $$, IMO. It is interesting to note that the OEM guard does make the crtown look slightly thicker because of a slightly smaller "gap" than the rep guard. I do not remember if this is a plus or not. The brushing on the gen is more aggressive than the brushing on the rep, as it is w/ most PAMs. All in all, the 50/51 is the best out of the box--if you like 40mm. I would also like to take this opportunity to offer my condolences to my favorite Italian of all time: I believe that w/ an OEM guard, watchmen cyclops, rebrushed case, The Zigmeister lumed dial and hands, OEM strap/deployant, and single sided AR to most perfect 51 rep in the world resides in the US, not in the land of its ancestors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 I would also like to take this opportunity to offer my condolences to my favorite Italian of all time: I believe that w/ an OEM guard, watchmen cyclops, rebrushed case, The Zigmeister lumed dial and hands, OEM strap/deployant, and single sided AR to most perfect 51 rep in the world resides in the US, not in the land of its ancestors. Grrrrrr...... My envy is just soothed by a hope that that 'my favorite Italian of all time' might point to someone that I am in knowledge with. And thanks for your gorgeous-as-always review on this topic, archie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yodaddynukka Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 i have to agree and say the ferrari. it may not be a true panerai, but it is a panerai at heart and it is stunning in person. it is one of the most solid reps around!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milsub5517 Posted June 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 With all the mods and OEM parts listed you probably spent around $600-700...? Am i right? Just to ad my thoughts to the 50 discussion: I bought and installed an OEM guard on mine (reviewed somewhere on the old board, I think). Not worth the $$, IMO. It is interesting to note that the OEM guard does make the crtown look slightly thicker because of a slightly smaller "gap" than the rep guard. I do not remember if this is a plus or not. The brushing on the gen is more aggressive than the brushing on the rep, as it is w/ most PAMs. All in all, the 50/51 is the best out of the box--if you like 40mm. I would also like to take this opportunity to offer my condolences to my favorite Italian of all time: I believe that w/ an OEM guard, watchmen cyclops, rebrushed case, The Zigmeister lumed dial and hands, OEM strap/deployant, and single sided AR to most perfect 51 rep in the world resides in the US, not in the land of its ancestors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P4GTR Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 What if the question was modified a bit to say which pam OVER 40MM was the closest to gen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 With all the mods and OEM parts listed you probably spent around $600-700...? Am i right? Let's see-- $250 base watch.. Cyclops--free since I helped organize the project. $35 value Cyclops install: $40 AR--$40 Relume: $65 (cheaper than black dials because ther'es not much to do on the white dial...a few dots) Used OEM strap, which I guess makes my watch a 049: $90 Deployant: christmas gift from the missus, or else I'd have just used the rep strap. Probably cost her $165 or so @ the AD. Case rebrush: Boston Watch Exchange Brushing Pen $20 OEM Guard: $195 That's $700 ($865 if you count the deployant) out of pocket, about 1/5 of the lowest cost I've seen on a gen--just within my self imposed limit of spending no more than a quarter of the street price of a used gen. The only mods I would call a must, though, are the AR, Lume, strap, and cyclops which would run about $200-$300 Aside form the fun of comparing the rep and gen guards side by side, the OEM crown guard is not worth seeking out, IMO. BTW, can anyone provide a verdict on the latest bracelet? Isn't the gen a tapered double deployant? Is that what the rep is being shipped with these days? @ sssurfer: If I ever make out your way, we'll have to compare watches and leer at beautiful Roman women over a bottle or two of Falesco Lazio Montiano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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