A Sticking Point

[alligoat]

freddy, I just wanted to let you know that this is becoming a great tutorial on how to build a 6239/41 and I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

I was browsing thru Skeet and Urul this morning and I did notice that the first 6239's came out w/ the 300 units bezel and then Rolex changed to the 200 units after that. Right or wrong, that's the tidbit for the day from S&U. It's funny how some people say S&U is full of errors, but it is a great reference source for the vintage sport models.

[freddy333]

Alli -- I had actually intended to do a proper parts collection & construction tutorial, but there have been so many unexpected problems and parts issues that the plan got sort of side-tracked in favor of just getting the watch built. But I will try to do the tutorial for the next one (6241).

I agree that S & U is often a good reference. But an even better one for (pre-1652xx) Daytonas is Rolex Daytona - A Legend is Born, which discusses every aspect of the Daytonas, often in minute detail and with a beautiful collection of photographs. This book, along with gigs worth of archived photos on my hard drive, is my guide. The authors discuss the 3 bezel variations for the 6239 here (sorry about the image quality)

If interested, I would buy this book immediately (it is currently for sale at $128 and worth every cent). However, for some reason the seller has placed more than 100 auctions (and those are only the ones I know about) for the same book (and same printing) over the past several months, each with a different price varying from a low of about $90 to as high as $188 (someone told me they saw one of his auctions listing the book at over $200, but I cannot confirm that).

[alligoat]

Thanks for the link, freddy. And it looks like a great way to brush up on your Italian at the same time! I'm going to give it a go.

BTW, I got w/ DW this week on a 6239 case, since I couldn't really come to grips w/ Jensen's high prices on the 6238. This hobby is kinda like a money pit! Cheers.

[freddy333]

You are very welcome, and, yes, a deep money pit. But if you have to live in the poor house, at least you will look like a million bucks (wearing your Daytona) & have something fun to keep you occupied while you are there. And the watchsmithing skills you pick up along the way place you in a very unique & exclusive fraternity.

Anyone with a serious interest in the Daytona and pre-Daytona models should read this book, and no modder should even consider picking up his dremel without picking up a copy (and committing it to memory) first.

You might check with DW to see if he has a 6238 case. If not, use the 6239. After some 'years of wear' the '9' on the case could very well end up being mistaken for an '8', if you know what I mean.

_________

UPDATE: I am beginning to wonder if the movement will actually fit into DW's case. After spending about 4 hours dremeling (removing) the elevated grooves that ran around the inside circumference of the case (it is impossible to fit the movement into the case without removing these), I now see that the inside of the case is not exactly round. There are slightly elevated sections in a few areas that bank up to the f-l-a-n-g-e (the inside front face of the dial) where the face of the dial rests on the inside of the case. These elevations are in the joint where the side wall and front face of the case meet. If you picture an "L" and then fill the inside angle of the L with metal so the right-angle is considerably rounded, that is about what it looks like. The problem is that the elevated areas need to be removed before the dial will be able to rest flatly against the front of the case, and I am unable to remove enough of the metal without damaging the front face of the case. As it is, I have already worn down a bit of the inside diameter of the opening (the part that rests against the dial), so I will need to figure out something for that. But the main problem is the case itself. I do not see how Avitt and others have been able to properly fit a movement into one of these cases, unless, like the crystal and pushers, the dimensions vary between cases or have been changed.

If anyone who has been here before has any input, I am all ears.

[pitimany]

we had this problem with a VJ72 from a Gallet chrono. I took the case the machine-shop and they cut the extra material.

@freddy333 be careful using the dreamel. let me know if you are in the US, maybe I can help you taking your case to the machine-shop.

[freddy333]

Pitimany -- Thank you for the picture and machine shop offer (yes, I am currently in the US). However, I have an update regarding my case dremeling caper -- After nearly 8 hours of grinding, test fitting, more grinding, more test fitting, more grinding, more test fitting....I finally got the movement into the case. And, amazingly (considering that this case was clearly not designed for a v72 movement), not only is the dial properly centered in the case (during my test-fittings, it looked like it might end up off-center), but I was stunned to find that the stem hole in the movement was perfectly aligned with the stem hole in the case.

Unfortunately, what you cannot see in this picture (at least I do not think you can see it from the front) is the rough & uneven mating surface around the case's front opening where it presses against the dial. But if you look closely around the edge of the dial, you might be able to see some of the burring that occurred when the dremel's grinding tool touched the opening lip of the case while I was grinding out the sides. I should be able to remove the burring with sandpaper, but there will be a couple of small gaps between the dial and the case that will remain. These you can see if you look at the dial from a slight angle. I am not sure what to do about them, but I will definitely have to figure something out because I can already tell that this watch will be quite a head-turner.

All in all, and even without proper hands & hardware, I am pretty impressed with the way it looks (since all of its sins are hidden away behind the dial & inside the case). I received my broaches from Cas-Ker today, but the hand holder is back ordered, so broaching the DW hands will be delayed a bit more. On the other hand, Phong's (as it turns out, his name is not Jensen) set of hands are in transit and should be here in a day or two. Hopefully, his v72 hands will actually be made to fit v72 pinions, so I will be able to finish the project the day they arrive. As it is, the hands are the last major hurdle (unless a minor miracle occurs & Phong's hands actually fit the way they are supposed to right out of the box). All that remains is tidying up loose ends (that I have done numerous times before, so there will be no problems) and polishing the mess I made inside of the case.

Anyway, for those of you who have been following this strange saga, here is a preview of a brand new Newman just days before its birth & a hint of what's to come (I had to fit the Fly's second hand onto the movement so I could tell if the movement stopped while I was diddling it into the case)

[Guest avitt]

This is strange...

I'll admit that these cases are tight, but I've never heard of such work being required to fit a VJ72. freddy333, are you having the same problem with both of your DW cases?

Here is an old picture that I took, which shows a few proper VJ72 cases, with the correct cutouts.

...I wonder what's going on with DW.

[freddy333]

Avitt -- How 'tight' were your cases, and how long did it take you to file them down to fit the movement?

No idea what is going on with DW? But he is definitely listening to my complaints (I only told him about the pushers & hands not fitting......I did not tell him about the case) and willing to fix things. He also seemed very surprised (and impressed) to hear that I had fit gen parts to his case (I got the clear impression that he had never considered doing this before). His personal Daytona 6239 is composed of all of the parts he sent me (except for the dial, I got the non-Oyster dial) -- black 'Oyster' dial (which denotes an Oyster case with screw type pushers, but the 6239 is not an 'Oyster'), non-screw 'pump' pushers, mediocre quality 7mm Triplock crown/tube (should be 6mm Twinlock), black plastic bezel (should be metal) & his OEM generic crystal. And his minute hand barely makes it past the black portion of the dial (I think the hand is too short). So, excepting the v72 movement & asymmetrical pusher arrangement, the man who is selling us the key components for many of our horological works of art is obliviously walking around wearing a watch that looks less like a gen than the 6239s that most of our collectors have. Hard to believe, but true.

Glad you posted that picture. I forgot to take one before I started, and for some reason I never even thought of trying the movement in the other 6239 case. Stupid me!

I just tried it now and the first case must have been defective or cut poorly. The movement almost fits into the other case and I can tell it would only need the minor hand-sanding that I assumed would be required at the beginning.

To give you a better idea what I saw on my case, I modified part of your picture to illustrate the areas I had the most trouble with

The area circled in red was the same on my case and had to be removed (I would need to do this with both of my cases in order to fit the movement) and areas circled in blue were similar to that 'hump' in the red circle except that the hump was much wider and sloped slowly upwards towards the front opening of the case. These were the areas that I described as looking like they were filling the inner angle of an "L" shape, with the bottom of the L being the front lip that touched the dial and the side of the L being the inside wall of the case. It was almost like a weld sitting along a joint, if that makes more sense.

Anyway, whatever it was, it is now gone and the movement fits perfectly -- snug enough so that there is no lateral free play between the movement and case walls, but loose enough so the movement slides in smoothly.

The plan for today is to polish the inside of the case, cut the new v72 stem to size and re-fit the new (NOS) Twinlock crown (the Twinlock is currently fit to a new v72 stem, but I need to size/cut the stem to fit the case), and cut & fit the Ofrei pushers (which DW is now considering using also).

UPDATE: I have smoothed/polished the inside of the case and removed virtually all of the burring around the dial opening that resulted from the dremeling & sized/fit both the stem/crown and pushers. I was going to stop there for the day since I cannot complete the work without Phong's hands anyway, but I got the stem/crown & pushers done in less than an hour (and part of that time was spent making tea), so I decided to push on and work out a solution for holding the movement in place within the case.

Here are a couple of quick-and-dirty (literally) teasers to give you an idea of what is to come

[freddy333]

2 questions for Ziggy or anyone else who successfully completed a DW Daytona

1. What did you use to fix the movement into the case?

Before I spend the time to fabricate something that I think will work to fix the movement in the case (a clip shaped like a right-angled "Z" (the angled line would be vertical)), I wanted to see if someone else has come up with something better. While it should work, I have a feeling there is probably a much more elegant (and effective) watchmaker's solution. Ziggy??

2. What is involved in removing the original chrono bridge

and replacing it with this

(Note - Rolex originally fitted either the 2-line or 5-line bridge to 6239s & 6241s, so either version is correct)

Is removal of the existing bridge a simple matter of removing the set screw, lifting off the bridge, swapping the jewels over to the new bridge & screwing the new bridge back in? Or are there springs or something below the bridge that are hiding? And does the new part just screw back in, or is there some type of adjustment that needs to be made? It seems like it may be a quick & simple r&r job, but, as we all know, it is always better to ask before doing something like this for the first time.

I assume I will have to press out the two jewels with a concave staking bit and then reinstall and oil them. But what oil should I use on the jewels?

[alligoat]

BUMP, or in this case BUYP- Just thought I'd check with you Freddy and see how things are going w/ your 6239 project. I have heard that fitting the Rolex chrono bridge can be a bear- like you say, you have to transfer the jewels over and then pray that you get lucky and everything lines up OK and functions correctly- something I'd definitely leave to the pros! Have you made any progress in the last week?

[freddy333]

Alligoat and All -- The 6239 Newman project is essentially completed. All that remains is to broach the hands and find a more secure method for stabilizing the movement in the case.

Hands -- Unfortunately, neither DW's nor Phong's (Jensen) hands fit the V72's pinions. All 12 of them (6 small chrono hands, 2 chrono second hands & 4 minute/hour hands) are too small.

I have a proper set of broaches, but the chrono & second hands are too small for my hand holder, so I have ordered another one which should be here within the next week. Hopefully, this one will fit the hands. But if you or anyone else has a better method for holding small hands while they are broached, I would love to hear it. So far, nothing I have tried worked.

(A side note regarding Phong's hands -- They are S-H-I-T-E, plain and simple. Not only do they not fit any better than DW's, but he charges more than twice what DW charges for them and the construction quality sucks. The small crimping that locks the wand part of the hand to its stem on both chrono second hands loosened, making it is impossible to use the hand because the wand just spins, freely, around the dial. Unfortunately, I do not have an extra set of DW's hands and I do not want to have to wait and deal with Western Union again. So I am going to epoxy 1 of Phong's defective hands and keep my fingers crossed. Bottom line for anyone else building a DW -- (except for the pushers, which you should get from ofrei.com) BUY ONLY FROM DW!)

Movement -- I spent a few hours cutting, shaping, filing & drilling the top of a soup tin in an attempt to fabricate 2 "Z" shaped straps to secure the V72 movement into the case. Although the straps turned out well & I got them to fit, the metal was too weak and they bent within minutes of my placing the watch on my wrist for the first time. So I ordered a collection of universal case straps from one of the parts houses & I think I will be able to find or fabricate something more stable from there.

Chrono Bridge -- I have not decided exactly what to do about fitting the 'ROLEX' chrono bridge yet.

It will be done at some point, but I am just not sure I want to take the chance of crippling the watch before I get the chance to wear it. After consulting with Ziggy, I decided that I did not have the right tool on hand (a jeweling press) to swap the jewels from the old bridge to the new one. So I found a good used press and ordered it. It should arrive any day. However, since I have never used the press before, I am not sure I want to experiment on this watch. Just this morning a friend suggested that I look into buying new jewels and just fitting these into the ROLEX bridge. That way, if I fail or damage something, I can continue to use the watch with its original bridge intact. And if I screw something up, I can just order more jewels and keep practicing until I get it right. Well, at least, that is the theory. I will see once the press arrives and I have a better idea how it works.

The good news is that the watch is otherwise complete and has been ticking away smoothly for more than a week now. Here is a teaser, but specifications are subject to change (I can say no more)

[alligoat]

Your thinking on the Rolex bridge sounds pretty good to me. Can't wait to see when you get the hands on there. Once you close the case, who's going to know if you have a Rolex bridge on there or not- it's a 6239 w/ a V72, who cares. We're not out to deceive anyone, just build some nice watches.

[freddy333]

I have been planning this project for years and it is to be my final, all-out assault on the Newman Daytona. So I want to get as close as I reasonably can to the gen (with a possible surprise or 2 along the way). The addition of the chrono bridge is just icing on the cake. Of course, no one will know it is there but you & me (and the few other RWG members who have been following the story). And, at this level, it is the details that make all the difference. But, like I said, I will only swap the bridge if & when I am sure it can be done safely.

There is also another new detail to add -- I recently tracked down a V23 (for my poor Flytimer), which has a set of gold colored gears (like those used on the Daytonas)

I have been considering whether it is worth the trouble of swapping those gears with the steel colored gears in the Newman's V72

Since the V23 is essentially the same movement as the V72 (minus the hour counter), it should be an even swap. The only problem is that it would require a complete tear-down of both movements, which is probably beyond my capability right now. Especially since I do not want to have both watches out of commission for an undetermined amount of time while I try my hand at chronograph overhaul. It sure would be nice to open the back of that case and see those gold gears and Rolex bridge, but we shall see.

[alligoat]

I thought the Rolex gears were rhodium plated, not gold. Rhodium being a more reddish color.

Other tells which catch my eye on the V72's are the balance bridge- esp. with the pointer, clear sign it's not a microstella balance.

I also look at the L-shaped bridge opposite the chrono bridge- the Rolex ones never have a screw in them, your Flytimer does as do alot of others.

No 72 B or the R symbol under the balance. Rolex had either 72B, 722, 722-1 or 727, but no R symbol- Valjoux's trademark, it's always absent on Rolex movts.

And of course, the train bridge that Dinh sells helps.

Building a visually correct Rolex type Valjoux movement would be very expensive. Rhodium colored gears, microstella balance, train bridge, balance bridge, chrono bridge, Dinh's $900 main bridge (with exchange). Where do you stop?

If I were going to make one improvement, it would definitely be the chrono bridge. And I don't know how you would ever come up w/ a Microstella balance, although I do recall reading that Girrard Perregeaux built a 727 with the Microstella balance also. But I bet that watch would run $2000-3000 because of the name.

[freddy333]

Good points all and you are right that one could go on to recreate an exact copy of the Rolex-modified V72, with every single detail replicated exactly. But that is definitely not what I am after. I just want to get the Rolex name in there and cover the most obvious things, which, for me, are the bridge & color of the gears. My Daytona 'bible' describes the gears this way -- 'All the wheels are in pink or gold metal' and the pictures they show to describe them look exactly like the gears that are in the v23. My thinking is that fitting the movement with the Rolex chrono bridge and these gold gears is a reasonable compromise in terms of cost and time and would produce the end result I am after.

[alligoat]

No doubt, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Just being able to build a 6239 with a V72 is a major accomplishment as far as I'm concerned. Keep us posted.

[freddy333]

To all who have contributed & followed my 2-part Newman saga, here, at long last, is the first quick and dirty picture of the 1st of the 2 project watches -- The (98% complete -- still need to work out a permanent solution to fix the movement in the case) 6239 Newman Daytona (I will do up proper pictures after I work out the case strap dilemma)

As you can see, I opted to go with the white dial & early steel '300 UNITS' bezel instead of following the original plan that called for a black dial and later (and much more common) '200 UNITS' bezel. Also, after seeing that snazzy 6239 that appeared in the Rolex Special Issue of Watchtime magazine, I decided to make another last-minute change to the specifications & paint the chrono seconds hand cherry red to match the 6239 in the magazine. I spoke with the people at Watchtime & the watch was provided for the feature by Rolex, so I know it is an authentic, albeit rarely seen, variation of the 6239 model series.

The 2nd part of the project, the 6241 Newman

is under construction

Thanks to all who posted photos, tutorials, comments and inspiration along the way. But, most importantly, special thanks go to DW, Ziggy, Tribal, Alligoat and especially Avitt, whose 6263 & 6265 were the catalysts for this project.

[freddy333]

Anyone have a suggestion on how to extend the black vertical line a bit higher to match my addition in red

It would be fairly easy to do with a straightedge except that the surface is not flat, it is ribbed or ringed or whatever you want to call it. I would also like to extend the lower end of the '3' by .5mm or so, if that is possible.

Any ideas?