Could someone help with movement ranking?

[tmark]

Hi,

I would like help figuring the relative rankings of quality and reliability of the various movements we are likely to find in rep watches.

The Zigmeister says these are highly recommended, I interpret to mean trouble free, reliable.

ETA 2892 series, XX92A2, XX93-2 etc

Highly recommended, the best of the best, even better than an equivalent Rollie movement, thinner, cheaper, stronger rotor...kind of like the $6 Million movement...

ETA 6497-1 Manual wind "Unitas" movement (Unitas doesn't exist anymore, it's an ETA movement)

Highly recommend, after all pocket watches have been around for over 100 years, you'll be giving this one to the grandkids.

ETA 7750, "Valjoux" "Swiss" model (Valjoux does not exist either, but it continues to be mislabled).

Highly recommended, in it's basic form. With add-ons, there could be problems with the availibility of spare parts – for example the Daytona with running seconds at 6 models, the added parts are not ETA…and no spares available.

Asian 7750 – NEW version

Highly recommended.

Only fault so far is that none of these are oiled as delivered, or oiled not well. The flaws on the old version have been corrected and the movement is very good. With additional caveat that some jewels are loose so may need servicing.

Asian movements, Miyota, Seiko etc

Highly recommended, best bang for the dollar.

Overall these are excellent as delivered, if it's a real Miyota or the new Power Reserve Seiko, they are clean, well oiled, and just great movements. Some of the copy Miyota ones, are as good as the real ones, I say copy simply because they don't have "Miyota" on the rotor. No parts are available, but you can buy a new well oiled and clean Miyota for $40…

My first question is what constitutes Asian movements/Miyota is this a 21j or what?

Second it seems that the three ETA series above are excellent, with the new Asian 7750 a step below—is that correct?

Then we come to the recommended movements

Asian copy of the 6497-1 or –2

Recommended.

These are excellent movements and good value for the money.

Copy movement, Venus 175 , "Lemanina 1874 copy" - again incorrectly labeled.

Recommended.

Clean and ok oiled as delivered. Seems rugged enough,

Asian 7750 – OLD version

Recommend with the understanding that it may need to be serviced sooner rather than later.

More questions many manual chrono’s have asian lemanina movement, I assume that is what The Zigmeister is referring to. As as I understand it the old asian 7750, which seems to be in the vast majority of 7750 movements in reps, probably will need service almost immediately but than should be pretty reliable.

So if you were giving these movements letter grades I’m guessing

A ETA 2892 series, XX92A2, XX93-2 etc--- ETA 6497-1------ ETA 7750,--- virtually no problems as delivered

B+ Asian 7750 – NEW version, Asian movement--- some potential minor problems, may need service

B Asian copy of the 6497-1 or –2 -- Venus 175 , "Lemanina 1874 copy --- generally good may have service problems (weak parts unavailable parts)

C Asian 7750 – OLD version ---- best to figure $$ for servicing right away

Am I anywhere close on these grades and evaluations? This would really help me in making decisions on purchases. Also I see movements with various sub dials, how does one evaluate the reliability of these?? I realize this is not a simple question, but I think many of us would like to hear from the experts as to what is reliable and what isn’t. I think The Zigmeister’s knowledge base is very good and I would just like to see a little more clarification and perhaps put an order on the knowledge base, best to worse or letter grades or something.

Edited May 11, 2006 by tmark

[Richard Tracy]

I'm impressed ! You seem to have every Category Right-On !

This post should be Pinned for reference also any following answers to your questions..

[tmark]

thanks mr tracy.

it's basically all The Zigmeisters fine work and I to read between the lines. But like I said I would really treasure some expert input.

[gran]

[RWG Technical]

Great idea, I never thought of assigning letters to them.

Here is how I would rank them based on my teardowns and hand-on experience.

Grade A Movements

· ETA 2892 series XX92A2, XX93-2 etc

· ETA 6497-1, or -2

· ETA 7750, 7753 etc.

Typically these don’t need to be serviced as delivered, clean, well oiled etc. Only issue is on some models (2892 series) they are ebauche’s and as such are delivered without the mainspring and balance. I know this because when I service these, the mainspring and balance cap jewels are dry and not lubricated yet the rest of the movement is…

Grade B Movements

· ETA 2824-2, 2836-2 etc

· New Asian 6497-1 copy

· New Asian 7750

· Asian Miyota copies (without complications)

· Asian Venus 175

Some ETA 2824 or 2836 are surplus movements, and as such can be in need of service right away, not many, but once in a while a batch comes through.

Asian 6497 are quite good, rugged movement and not in need of immediate service.

New Asian 7750 is clean, but not oiled (of the half dozen examples I have seen), other issue is the pallet stones falling out due to poor varnish holding them in place.

Grade C Movements

· Old Asian 7750

· New Asian 7750 running seconds at 6 (Daytona model)

Old Asian 7750 has cannon pin problems (slippage), dirt and lack of oil are also known problems. Once serviced, they work well, mine is still going strong 15 months after service…

Daytona 7750 is always going to be a problem, simply due to asking the movement to do too much, namely add 11 extra gears to a movement and not expect it to be affected. Servicing can’t fix design problems…

Grade F Movements

· Moljina hand wind models

· DW Daytona chrono models

· Asian complication models

Every Moljina I have worked on was rusty, really rusty, keyless works is terrible and overall a bad model.

DW hand wind chrono models (still not sure what it’s a copy of) is a nightmare, won’t ever work on one of these again, very time consuming, no parts available, worn out, simply a bad model. If you have a good working one, your fortunate - hang on to it.

Asian complication models, once they break - they are junk, no replacements are available.

Thanks for bringing this up, if I missed a model, plse let me know.

RG

[gran]

Asian complication models, once they break - they are junk, no replacements are available.

Thanks for bringing this up, if I missed a model, plse let me know.

RG

How would you rank the movements produced/used by Sea-Gull? and is it so that they ("the ones with complications") can not be replaced?

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=3760

Regards

Gunnar

[RWG Technical]

How would you rank the movements produced/used by Sea-Gull? and is it so that they ("the ones with complications") can not be replaced?

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=3760

Regards

Gunnar

Some we have already seen, and they are good.

Problem is getting these, I have tried in the past to buy various models, and the sellers are not willing to sell in small quantities, and there are no spares for any Asian movements, including Miyota, so that is another problem.

But these look great, getting them is another story...

RG

[tmark]

The Zigmeister,

I like this letter grade format, I think it would be nice to pin it in your knowledge base and perhaps update as necessary. It seems to me that it is helpful to rank the movements and give people an idea of what to expect. Of course your knowledge base articles are extremely helpful, but I think a simple summary like you have done above is great.

I see a lot of watchs for sale saying Asian 21J for a movement-- what movement is that referring to? Also perhaps in general a little information on complications..

For example, (I don't know am making this up) most movements except #### are delivered with hour, minute, second, date. If you move the second to a subdial that is usually ok. If you add one other complication (moon dial, day dial, year dial) that is ok. Anymore and you are asking for trouble.

Or something else like that. For example I'm looking at a watch from Josh with 21J movement it has sub dials for day, month, date and moon. It would seem to me this is a risky movement-- probably wouldn't work long. But I really don't know what is involved and if a service could take care of potential problems.

It would be nice if all our board experts would way in on this with there real world experience.

thanks

mark

[RWG Technical]

I see a lot of watchs for sale saying Asian 21J for a movement-- what movement is that referring to? Also perhaps in general a little information on complications..

Most likely a copy of the Miyota 8215 model. That applies to simple running seconds in the center of the dial, not to complications on movements (ie moon, etc...)

For example, (I don't know am making this up) most movements except #### are delivered with hour, minute, second, date. If you move the second to a subdial that is usually ok. If you add one other complication (moon dial, day dial, year dial) that is ok. Anymore and you are asking for trouble.

I think this has been covered in detail already, complications are problematic, plain and simple.

For example I'm looking at a watch from Josh with 21J movement it has sub dials for day, month, date and moon. It would seem to me this is a risky movement-- probably wouldn't work long. But I really don't know what is involved and if a service could take care of potential problems.

Service is not the issue, parts quality, and availibility of spares is the issue...there are no spare movements or parts available for these models, and typically based on what I have seen first hand, these can and do fail. I end up with handfuls of these movements, and ship them out to members who want to practice and have some fun. Personally I stay away from these models, as I do from the others I mentioned in the above ratings.

Otherwise, I think it's all been covered, if it's not on the list as a good movement - there is a reason for this...stick to the known models, with spare parts available, and you will get good value for your money. If you get something like a model with auto, running seconds at 9, and it's a asian whatever model, and it breaks, throw it out, you can't fix it... I have a number of these sitting here, that I can't get parts for, or replacement movements...

RG