Straps - The Process

[tootall]

Of course it does not apply. One relates to jewellery, the other does not. The first FTC definition you quoted clearly stated hand labour and manually-controlled methods.

Why does Oszolom need to grow up? The points they make are totally valid. If you want to consider a strap to be 100% hand made, you are left with the position of cutting the leather with your teeth and nails. Pushing the thread through the holes (bitten through, of course) by hand without a needle. Sorry, but if you're going to try and insist that 'hand made is hand made', that's the level you have to be reduced to. The FTC definition, as mentioned above, stated "Hand labor AND manually-controlled methods". Using tools and manually controlled machines, falls under the remit of 'manually-controlled methods'.

To be honest, I'm getting sick of wasting time debating an issue with someone clearly unwilling to accept that their own definitions have proved the point against them, and to be honest, you're starting to look like a troll. People have more important things to discuss than if a strap is being incorrectly labelled as 'hand-made', 'hand-crafted' or 'hand-tooled'...

Like I said, I cannot debate anything with you if you won't go read the FTC section 16 CFR. If you want to go read it then we can discuss further. They both relate to jewelry. GO READ IT!!! They both are in the jewelry section.

[cranium]

tootall, you never responded to my post.

And maybe try not to quote dictionary.com or the FTC ...

[tootall]

tootall, you never responded to my post.

And maybe try not to quote dictionary.com or the FTC ...

I'm sorry, what was in your post that warranted response?

[cranium]

Never mind. Your smart@$$ response sums up everything I need to know.

You don't have too many friends, I'm guessing ... angry little man.

[tootall]

Never mind. Your smart@$$ response sums up everything I need to know.

You don't have too many friends, I'm guessing ... angry little man.

HUH?

I meant that sincerely. Would you have preferred me to say "I'm sorry, I don't know what I didn't answer?" . Maybe that conveys the problem I am having a little clearer?

Chat comes across in whatever "tone" you read it in. I am sorry if you thought I was being sarcastic, that was not the "tone" I wanted to convey. I sincerely don't know what you want me to respond to. The only questions you asked were labeled an aside.

Edited September 29, 2007 by tootall

[cranium]

Apparently a guitar is not a worthy enough "real-world" example, so let's try something else ...

Scotty Cameron (one of, if not the world's most renowned designer of clubs, by Titleist) labels just 5-10 putters a year "handmade". Titleist's definition of handmade?

Lots of work! The mill is moved by hand to create the shape and not CNC. Scotty uses a Bridgeport mill. (*CNC is Computer Numeric Controlled. A computer runs the mill machine table instead of being done by hand. This allows for precision and repeatability.)

FYI, here's a quick pic of a "Bridgeport":

Maybe we could file a suit against Titleist and make some big bucks for this intentional and inexcusable fraud. Or MAYBE ... MAYBE ... there actually is a slight degree of interpretation whenever one uses the word "hand-crafted"?

[tootall]

cranium, thank you for that detailed explanation. However, it only states that Scott Cameron believes it is handmade. The way I understand it and have researched it, you certainly could have a case, if you wanted to. The thing is that the only case that someone has won with the FTC in regards to handmade were the Alaskan Eskimos and Native Americans who were being taken advantage of, because their products were handmade, but the gift shops that sold other people's products were not handmade. The gift shops were claiming handmade and that's when the FTC came up with the definition and explanation. From what I gather, this is the only case where this has been discussed. So interpretation? Maybe. But you would have to go a long way around interpreting handmade for a strap that has been cut out by a leather cutting machine table, by table I mean a machine similar to this: http://www.mfgsup.com/dieless_cutting_syst...ing_equipment/, sewn on a machine, and finished by various bench grinders and polishers.

On Monday or Tuesday of next week, I am going to call the FTC and ask them. They don't have an email or I would have already done that. I'll ask the specific questions: (if you think I should re-word them, then please let me know, thanks)

1. On your definition of handmade, it states that one is to quote " by hand labor and manually-controlled methods", does this include machines that are operated by hand? Example an electric sewing machine?

If the above does include machines, then I will give up my stance, pure and simple. No need for questions 2 and 3.

2. Could you then say, to accurately describe "handmade", one is to use their hands with no aid of an electric tool?

3. Manual tools such as knives, hammers, etc. are ok?

These 3 questions should cover all of our points and determine, what is accurate. If any of you think of something different let me know. I just hope that you all are as willing as I am to accept if your stance is wrong.

Edited September 29, 2007 by tootall

[cranium]

Thanks for the response, tootall. I'm still not sure why you choose to continue talking in circles (i.e., "The FTC says it, so therefore the FTC says that, and if the FTC says it, then it must be that the FTC means it ... so how can you say that because the FTC says so").

1. I don't have a definition of hand-made. That's my WHOLE POINT ... that there is not a definitive definition of hand-made. While I don't doubt at all that you are correct in regards to the FTC's rulings, you have to remember that their primary purpose is consumer protection ... to prevent such actions as creating jewelry on an assembly line and then stamping it "Hand Made" to sell at a greater profit. I would guess the FTC has no intention (or even jurisdiction?) of being the "end-all, be-all" definitive answer for all products in all fields as to whether they can be labeled handmade ... my guitar and putter as two perfect examples.

2. Both examples I used demonstrate my beliefs. You continue to avoid them, and instead choose to live in the theoretical ... "this is how the FTC defines it". I ask you ... do you believe the guitar and the putter are NOT handmade? Are they WRONG? Does it (to quote you) "bug the crap" out of you that they define their products as handmade? Should they be fined by the FTC? Or is it possible that there actually is some leniency when it comes to this subject?

Let's bring this home. Below is your VERY FIRST STATEMENT:

This really bugs the crap out of me. How can some say "handcrafted only", when he shows a variety of machines to finish and stitch his straps??

That is not handmade. Period.

This whole discussion has proven that this issue is not as black and white as you wish it was.

[tootall]

Thanks for the response, tootall. I'm still not sure why you choose to continue talking in circles (i.e., "The FTC says it, so therefore the FTC says that, and if the FTC says it, then it must be that the FTC means it ... so how can you say that because the FTC says so").

1. I don't have a definition of hand-made. That's my WHOLE POINT ... that there is not a definitive definition of hand-made. While I don't doubt at all that you are correct in regards to the FTC's rulings, you have to remember that their primary purpose is consumer protection ... to prevent such actions as creating jewelry on an assembly line and then stamping it "Hand Made" to sell at a greater profit. I would guess the FTC has no intention (or even jurisdiction?) of being the "end-all, be-all" definitive answer for all products in all fields as to whether they can be labeled handmade ... my guitar and putter as two perfect examples.

2. Both examples I used demonstrate my beliefs. You continue to avoid them, and instead choose to live in the theoretical ... "this is how the FTC defines it". I ask you ... do you believe the guitar and the putter are NOT handmade? Yes, I believe them to not be handmade Are they WRONG? Yes Does it (to quote you) "bug the crap" out of you that they define their products as handmade? YesShould they be fined by the FTC? This is a questionable answer. Yes they "should", but will I ever, no. Or is it possible that there actually is some leniency when it comes to this subject? No leniency, or maybe there is when I call next week.

Let's bring this home. Below is your VERY FIRST STATEMENT:

This whole discussion has proven that this issue is not as black and white as you wish it was.

I could make a grey area out of anything. Which is exactly what you 3 guys have done. You all still say 8" when proven otherwise. Trying to use this instance and that instance, "IF's". I have not once changed my views, so I don't get the whole back peddling. Also, I not am talking in circles. You 3 keep coming up with different arguments and I have to keep bringing you back to square one. Thus I am not the one running in circles. My point or argument has never changed.

Lastly, I will post my results next week and that will be the end of it. None of you 3 are experts or even amateurs in this field, you are only presenting your ignorant opinions on a watch forum. I am trying to educate and you keep spouting things which you "think" you know something about. So then, I will post my results next week and that will be the end of it.

[cranium]

the handmade police wins.

Actually, I would encourage anyone following this thread to read this:

hxxp://www.ftc.gov/bcp/policystmt/ad-decept.htm (replace the xx with tt)

This should sum it up for you (from the FTC):

Certain elements must undergird all deception cases.

1. There must be an intentional representation, omission or practice that is likely to mislead the consumer.

2. Second, we examine the practice from the perspective of a consumer acting reasonably in the circumstances.

3. Third, the representation, omission, or practice must be a "material" one. The basic question is whether the act or practice is likely to affect the consumer's conduct or decision with regard to a product or service. If so, the practice is material, and consumer injury is likely, because consumers are likely to have chosen differently but for the deception.

As "an average consumer", I don't believe either of my given situations fill these requirements ... but that's just me.

[TeeJay]

I could make a grey area out of anything. Which is exactly what you 3 guys have done. You all still say 8" when proven otherwise. Trying to use this instance and that instance, "IF's". I have not once changed my views, so I don't get the whole back peddling. Also, I not am talking in circles. You 3 keep coming up with different arguments and I have to keep bringing you back to square one. Thus I am not the one running in circles. My point or argument has never changed.

Lastly, I will post my results next week and that will be the end of it. None of you 3 are experts or even amateurs in this field, you are only presenting your ignorant opinions on a watch forum. I am trying to educate and you keep spouting things which you "think" you know something about. So then, I will post my results next week and that will be the end of it.

How do YOU know what our level of knowledge may be in this field? As I said before, I have worked on many different projects over the years. Belt making close enough to strap making for you? Now you're going to phone the FTC and ask about how their definition applies to the Real World?? I hope you remember to cite Cranium's examples of guitar and golf clubs when you call them Indeed, what an angry little man you are