Straps - The Process

[Oszolom]

What a pointless flame... :cc_confused:

What do You suggest?

Is it still "handmade" if You are using knife to cut leather instead of your own teeth or fingernails?

Are You making holes in leather by finger or by needle produced in sort of machinery?

Or maybe using knife is OK to call it "handmade" but You can't sharpen this knife other than on natural stone? ...blade have to be made in fireplace burned without use of matches and it is forbidden to use handles made of artificial resin to be "handmede" kosher?

Whoooa!

[TeeJay]

The reason they have been ignored is because to YOU they are considered hand made, but they are NOT by definiton. And thus your opinion is not fact, so therefore your idea of them being handmade is incorrect.

So a machine built my guinea pig hutch and I had nothing whatsoever to do with it?

An artists painting is using hand tools. Nothing mechanical there.

An artist's airbrush is a mechanical device, or do you think a Chip Foose should use a straw and puddle of paint to coat a car?

A sculpturer who uses hammer and chisel again is using hand tools and no mechanical devices. If a sculpturer was to use power/mechanical tools, this would take them out of the hand made realm.

The tools used are just that. Tools. They are there to make the job easier and give more precise results. They require skill, and in some cases, training to use. Using tools which require a human hand to guide them take nothing away from any artisan's craft. Now, if you were to be talking about a CNC lathe or Calypso WaterJet, then I would agree, that would not be a hand-made part, but all the time it is a human hand guiding a tool, people are prepared to consider that as 'hand worked' as it is a human being in control of the process.

I don't know where you keep getting this "in the real world" stuff. No one I know of, says a person can use mechanical devices in the process and it can still be labeled as handmade. That is a fabrication of your own opinion. But not "real world" standard.

From experience of people's expectations and tollerances. As another poster mentioned previously, even consumers purchassing a 'hand-made' item would not expect the artisan to go to the lengths described above, ie biting through the leather yourself etc. The standard you are endorsing is a dictionary definition, which does not always apply to the practical reality of 'arts and crafts', and, when taken to the point described above, is a ludicrous standard to either apply, or expect an artisan to work to.

You have never made a strap. I have made many of them.

Good for you. I have made many things more complex than a strap. The fact I have not made that specific item, does not mean that I cannot grasp the concept.

I can tell you that in a few cases stitching may be more asthetic, but in the majority of cases it makes up a structual part of the strap.

It might be what holds the strap together, but it is still not 50% of what is making the strap. As said before, the leather of the main sections of the strap is the majority component. Some people makes straps with hardly any stitching at all, only enough to create the tunnels for the lug pins/screws and the buckle.

Furthermore, only people who want to pervert the simple definition to increase profits, notarity, etc are the ones who claim as long as you work with your hands it is hand made, no matter the tool. My point of 99% of the things I own, could be labeled as hand made if that were the case, is what is being ignored.

I don't care about 99% of the things you own, as unless you want to catalogue and justify each example, they are not the issue of discussion. Your insistance on 'hand made' being solely that, as illustrated above, is frankly laughable, so unless you want to make a strap to the methods described above, I'd let the issue drop. If you have that much of an issue with people claiming something as 'hand made' and using tools to do so, then complain to trading standards and get the site shut down, as they are clearly scammers

Edited September 28, 2007 by TeeJay

[tootall]

After reading this, I think we are getting things cconfused.

I am talking about hand made. You seem to be talking about making something that incorporates using your hands. They are two different things. I'll give an example. A car is made using machines and also by using humans to put parts on by hand. Now the parts of the car that are put on by hand are not "hand made". They are simply put together by a human who has to use his/her hands to complete the task. Now you wouldn't say a car was handmade. Would you?

Furthermore, a Rolls Royce has a dash and seat parts that are handmade. They are considered this because people use no mechanical devices in order to make the product. If they used a sewing machine, it is not hand made. So those parts are hand made because there was no mechanical device used.

Your example of a hutch does not make it handmade. It just means you built it yourself. Handmade has it's definition, which holds true. Just because something is made with the aid of a person's hand does not make it "handmade". Another example would be my couch. People use mechanical devices to put it together with their hands. That does not make it handmade however. It just means it was fabricated with the use of hands.

Asking whether or not you have made a strap, points more to you don't know the work invloved so you are not a source to determine whether stitching is 50% of a strap. By volume it is not, as there is more leather showing than stitching. But in the process of making a strap, stitching takes over 50% of the process time and construction. That was in response to what the previous poster said.

The question comes to you. What is the reason you don't accept the standard (the dictionary)? I mean if we were have a book and I said it was 6" long and you said it was 8" long, but then we get a standard (a ruler) and find out it's 7" long, we would both have to give up our opinions as to what the true dimension is. It's the same with handmade. There is no tolerance or other definition, except:

made by hand, rather than by machine

No mechanical devices. So you can argue all you want, but the fact remains, no machines.

I mean if we are to use "your" definition, then every strap is handmade. Every car would be as well. Anything that had a human hand invloved is considered handmade. There is no magic machine, where someone puts a load of ingredients into it and out pops a finished product. Human hands are involved in the steps of everything made.

Edited September 28, 2007 by tootall

[TeeJay]

After reading this, I think we are getting things cconfused.

I am talking about hand made. You seem to be talking about making something that incorporates using your hands. They are two different things. I'll give an example. A car is made using machines and also by using humans to put parts on by hand. Now the parts of the car that are put on by hand are not "hand made". They are simply put together by a human who has to use his/her hands to complete the task. Now you wouldn't say a car was handmade. Would you?

While I would certainly not say that a branded 'production car' was hand made, I would say that that term could definitely be applied at a 'kit car', or extensively modified hot-rod where the owner has essentially built it from the ground up by fabricating panals. A comment I read on a car forum, which I think somewhat fitting, was "You can only do so much work before a 'restoration' project becomes a 'replica'." Personally, I think that statement is a Ship of Theseus debate, but I think it still fits with this issue, of what percentage of the work must be done by hand for it to be considered 'hand made'.

Your example of a hutch does not make it handmade. It just means you built it yourself. Handmade has it's definition, which holds true. Just because something is made with the aid of a person's hand does not make it "handmade". Another example would be my couch. People use mechanical devices to put it together with their hands. That does not make it handmade however. It just means it was fabricated with the use of hands.

In which case, you would possibly find the term 'hand tooled' more appropriate in terms of strict definition? As an artist, I certainly agree that there is a difference between making something entirely by hand and using elbow grease rather than a power-tool to make something. However, this is not about what you or I consider 'hand made', but what the buying public are prepared to tollerate and accept thus. As far as the uninformed public are concerned, 'hand tooled' is the same as hand made.

Asking whether or not you have made a strap, points more to you don't know the work invloved so you are not a source to determine whether stitching is 50% of a strap.

I might not have made a strap, but as mentioned, I have worked on other, and similar, projects. I may not be an expert, but I do know the work involved. Dyeing, pattern cutting, braddling, gluing, stitching. Have I missed anything out?

By volume it is not, as there is more leather showing than stitching. But in the process of making a strap, stitching takes over 50% of the process time and construction. That was in response to what the previous poster said.

My point was not what took more of the process time, but that the stitching does not make up 50% of the volume of the strap. I said that quite clearly. Stitching may indeed take a majority of the process time, and sometimes, it can play a crucial part of the structure and even appearance of the strap, but in terms of product volume, the point I was making, the majority is composed of the leather the strap is made from.

The question comes to you. What is the reason you don't accept the standard (the dictionary)? I mean if we were have a book and I said it was 6" long and you said it was 8" long, but then we get a standard (a ruler) and find out it's 7" long, we would both have to give up our opinions as to what the true dimension is.

It is not a case that I do not accept the standard, it is a case of the dictionary definition not being the overall public opinion, as I mentioned above re 'hand made' Vs 'hand tooled'. The dictionary definition may well be what it is, but that does not mean that that is what people necessarily think, and it is this issue of perception, which I feel outweighs 'pure definition'.

It's the same with handmade. There is no tolerance or other definition, except:

made by hand, rather than by machine

No mechanical devices. So you can argue all you want, but the fact remains, no machines.

To which the point returns as Oszolom said. While I would not consider a knife to be mechanical, it is still a tool, and as I said, unless you want to make a strap with absolutely no tools whatsoever, then you cannot argue that the straps are 'hand made'. I believe our disagreement is with the relevence of the tool (whatever it may be) within the process. I agree that the definition is the definition, but as mentioned above, the general public would certainly consider something 'hand tooled' to be 'hand made'. Maybe not factually accurate, but still their overall opinion.

I mean if we are to use "your" definition, then every strap is handmade. Every car would be as well. Anything that had a human hand invloved is considered handmade. There is no magic machine, where someone puts a load of ingredients into it and out pops a finished product. Human hands are involved in the steps of everything made.

As mentioned above, 'hand tooled', rather than 'hand made', then to things it applies, certainly. Most cars are built on assembly lines which operate without human interaction, although they could certainly be classified as 'hand finished', as people have to put the parts together, as with a watch. As I said before, it is a matter of semantics.

[tootall]

I might not have made a strap, but as mentioned, I have worked on other, and similar, projects. I may not be an expert, but I do know the work involved. Dyeing, pattern cutting, braddling, gluing, stitching. Have I missed anything out?

Yes, you forgot finshing, conditioning, holes punched, QC.

btw, just wanted to add this:

HANDMADE - The FTC defines handmade as entire shaping and forming of a product from raw materials and accomplishing the finishing and decoration by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of the product.

This includes the definition of the dictionary and also the greater public. So there is still no room for machines, no matter how you look at it.

[Oszolom]

Pure academic blablabla... exemplification of what is called on netboards "flame".

Tootall, please answer some simple question:

- If someone uses heavy stone to secure glueing is it OK to call effect of that work "handmade"?

- If someone uses spring clasps to secure glueing is it OK to call effect of that work "handmade"?

- If someone uses manual operated lever press to secure glueing is it OK to call effect of that work "handmade"?

- If someone uses hudraulic press to secure glueing is it OK to call effect of that work "handmade"?

It is easy to answer just with "yes" or "no". That will clear much more that milion words elaborates.

Edited September 28, 2007 by Oszolom

[TeeJay]

Yes, you forgot finshing, conditioning, holes punched, QC.

Sorry, I considered hole punching in with braddling, and as for finishing and QC, that's just standard procedure. It goes without saying that an artisan checks their work, so doesn't really belong on the list...

Yes, you forgot finshing, conditioning, holes punched, QC.

btw, just wanted to add this:

HANDMADE - The FTC defines handmade as entire shaping and forming of a product from raw materials and accomplishing the finishing and decoration by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of the product.

This includes the definition of the dictionary and also the greater public. So there is still no room for machines, no matter how you look at it.

Really.

HANDMADE - The FTC defines handmade as entire shaping and forming of a product from raw materials and accomplishing the finishing and decoration by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of the product.

Sorry, but that would mean using tools of any variety, as long as they are manually controlled, which was the point I made several times above...

Edited September 28, 2007 by TeeJay

[Oszolom]

...product from raw materials and accomplishing the finishing and decoration by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of the product.

Exactly!

Here You got clue: "manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control". Lever press used for punching is example of such a machinery controlled by maker. ...but of course manually controlled (by gauge) hydraulic press fulfills this definition.

[tootall]

Pure academic blablabla... exemplification of what is called on netboards "flame".

Tootall, please answer some simple question:

- If someone uses heavy stone to secure glueing is it OK to call effect of that work "handmade"?

Yes

- If someone uses spring clasps to secure glueing is it OK to call effect of that work "handmade"?

Yes

- If someone uses manual operated lever press to secure glueing is it OK to call effect of that work "handmade"?

Yes

- If someone uses hudraulic press to secure glueing is it OK to call effect of that work "handmade"?

Yes

It is easy to answer just with "yes" or "no". That will clear much more that milion words elaborates.

Hope that helps ya. I would like for you to define "secure glueing", but for now I go off the assumption you just mean after glue is applied the pressing and leaving of the glue to set.

Edited September 28, 2007 by tootall

[tootall]

Sorry, I considered hole punching in with braddling, and as for finishing and QC, that's just standard procedure. It goes without saying that an artisan checks their work, so doesn't really belong on the list...

Really.

Sorry, but that would mean using tools of any variety, as long as they are manually controlled, which was the point I made several times above...

You just don't get it do ya?

Go to the FTC website and look up the discussions on this matter. Manually controlled, means every aspect of said tool. A dremel for instance would be manually controlled only if the head was not spinning. At that point you are not manually controlling the tool. If you just held a dremel with sanding drum and rubbed back and forth with it, that would be manually controlled.

You two are getting ridiculous now. I will end this. I think people understand FACTS over "general acceptance" which the acceptance hasn't been proven but the facts are.

I jsut don't get "why" you have to fight the proven standard of the dictionary and the FTC. I bet if I we did have that book, after we both found out it was 7" instead. You would still claim your 8".

Edited September 28, 2007 by tootall

[wjlamp]

You just don't get it do ya?

Go to the FTC website and look up the discussions on this matter. Manually controlled, means every aspect of said tool. A dremel for instance would be manually controlled only if the head was not spinning. At that point you are not manually controlling the tool. If you just held a dremel with sanding drum and rubbed back and forth with it, that would be manually controlled.

You two are getting ridiculous now. I will end this. I think people understand FACTS over "general acceptance" which the acceptance hasn't been proven but the facts are.

I jsut don't get "why" you have to fight the proven standard of the dictionary and the FTC. I bet if I we did have that book, after we both found out it was 7" instead. You would still claim your 8".

I would like to post a final line for the subject ,since my posts kept it hot,somehow.

My intention was not to abuse or dispute the lines of those that have an opinion of the subject.

I was just trying to shed some light on this debate,with a little help from the experience that I've gained from my pro activity. Do not forget ,that I am a customs broker operating in EEC,and this debate is almost every day on the agenda ,while dealing with them customs officers.

Hand made ,as they are, more often than not ,happy to to prove a product,we,BROKERS,present documents and certificates ,in order to prove that is not so.

Mind you ,hand made products are more heavy on taxes,and sport higher invoiced prices.

If we can be persuasive in our dealing,and our documents and certificates from all around the world commerce chambers,declare that the handiwork is less than

sixty percent, aka more machine work ,we come out 'winners",saving a lot of money on behalf of our customers(importers).

That is the field I was telling,and these are some of the tools of my trade.

Case dismissed

PS Thank God you aren't a customs officer in EEC. :D

PS 2 Can you please send me some advice, about the tools needed for strap making. I am thinking that the use of a thin fishing thread for stitchin' is an interesting variation( more invisible) Have you ever tried it?

Thanks

[cranium]

I don't know where you keep getting this "in the real world" stuff. No one I know of, says a person can use mechanical devices in the process and it can still be labeled as handmade. That is a fabrication of your own opinion. But not "real world" standard.

tootall,

While you have most certainly proven yourself the expert on the definition of "hand-crafted", I must say you have done so in quite an indignant manner. 'Tis better to be understood than understanding, eh?

As a side note, I have a guitar that states on the label "Hand Made in Ireland by George Lowden". Does that imply that the electronic pick-up, the strings, and even the tuning kn*bs were made without any machine tools? Does it imply that the chemicals composing the satin finish were created and mixed by George's hands and a stick alone? Simply put ... no, it doesn't. In fact, that would be absurd to conclude. What it does mean (unless this is merely a "fabrication of my own opinion") is that this guitar didn't come off an assembly line of workers, rather it was made primarily and solely by George Lowden.

Certainly someone as refined as you would say ol' George should be fined by the FTC and disgraced amongst guitar enthusiasts across the world for such actions, but nonetheless, there is a small minority that seems to disagree. These markings in fact, make it an extremely valuable guitar ... regardless of rather he used a machine sander or not.

Look, the point is ... I would not encourage anyone to get their panties in a wad every time a word gets used that doesn't 100% correspond with the dictionary. Otherwise, life could potentially become one loooooong "wedgie" (noun - a shoe having a wedge-shaped heel joined to a half sole so as to form a continuous undersurface).

[TeeJay]

You just don't get it do ya?

Go to the FTC website and look up the discussions on this matter. Manually controlled, means every aspect of said tool. A dremel for instance would be manually controlled only if the head was not spinning. At that point you are not manually controlling the tool. If you just held a dremel with sanding drum and rubbed back and forth with it, that would be manually controlled.

You two are getting ridiculous now. I will end this. I think people understand FACTS over "general acceptance" which the acceptance hasn't been proven but the facts are.

I jsut don't get "why" you have to fight the proven standard of the dictionary and the FTC. I bet if I we did have that book, after we both found out it was 7" instead. You would still claim your 8".

I don't get it?? Your're the one trying to dispute a definition you yourself provided.

HANDMADE - The FTC defines handmade as entire shaping and forming of a product from raw materials and accomplishing the finishing and decoration by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of the product.

Just to clarify, that says:

by hand labor and manually-controlled methods

and:

which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of the product.

Now, those are your own quotes and definitions (or at least ones you are providing) and as for your comments about a dremel, you're just digging yourself further into the hole as the speed of a dremel is manually adjustable (controllable), and thus, fits into the definition you yourself provided. As I said before, I'm happy to compromize and use the term 'hand-tooled', but to be honest, the FTC definition you provided allowed for both hand labor and manually-controlled methods (aka tools)

Edited September 28, 2007 by TeeJay

[tootall]

Ok maybe this will finally end it.

A simple yes or no will suffice.

If a strap is stitched by using a sewing machine and edges are finished by using a bench grinder, is that still considered handmade?

If a strap is cut out by a leather cutting machine (table), stitched by using a sewing machine and edges are finished by using a bench grinder, is that still considered handmade?

[TeeJay]

Ok maybe this will finally end it.

A simple yes or no will suffice.

If a strap is stitched by using a sewing machine and edges are finished by using a bench grinder, is that still considered handmade?

If a strap is cut out by a leather cutting machine (table), stitched by using a sewing machine and edges are finished by using a bench grinder, is that still considered handmade?

Sorry, but that trick doesn't work in this instance Those things, sewing machine, cutting table, bench grinder, etc, are all manually-controlled by the maker, as per the definition YOU provided.

I agree, it is not the same as someone hand stitching the strap, or cutting the leather by hand with a fixed blade knife, but that isn't the point. The point, which the FTC definition allowed, was for hand work AND manually-controlled methods.

Is a sewing machine manually controlled? Yes or No.

Is a leather cutting machine manually controlled? Yes or No.

Is a bench grinder manually controlled? Yes or No.

Sorry, but YOU provided the FTC definition, and that quite clearly said:

by hand labor and manually-controlled methods

Don't try back-peddling just because your definition has actually worked against you. As I said, I'm happy with the term 'hand-tooled'. It covers both, which, is what the FTC guideline allows for. Hand labor and manually-controlled methods.

Edited September 29, 2007 by TeeJay

[tootall]

Trick?? There is no trick. I was asking pure and simple. I wasn't trying to "trip" you up in any way. Like I said a simple yes or no would suffice. I really want to know what you think. In these cases would you say it was handmade?

I am not back peddling anything. The statement "by hand labor and manually-controlled methods" are not two different methods. They are one in the same. Go to the article at the FTC before you spout any more ignorant comments. "And" is not a conjunction but rather an inclusion. The article goes on to explain that manually controlled means hand tools. NO mechanical devices.

Just because you used your hands to make something does not mean it is "handmade". As I have stated, that would be ridiculous to say, that just because a human hand was involved it is handmade.

[TeeJay]

Trick?? There is no trick. I was asking pure and simple. I wasn't trying to "trip" you up in any way. Like I said a simple yes or no would suffice. I really want to know what you think. In these cases would you say it was handmade?

I am not back peddling anything. The statement "by hand labor and manually-controlled methods" are not two different methods. They are one in the same. Go to the article at the FTC before you spout any more ignorant comments. "And" is not a conjunction but rather an inclusion. The article goes on to explain that manually controlled means hand tools. NO mechanical devices.

Just because you used your hands to make something does not mean it is "handmade". As I have stated, that would be ridiculous to say, that just because a human hand was involved it is handmade.

Perhaps 'trick' was an ill-chosen word. As I said, Yes or No did not really apply to those questions as it was not a 'black or white' answer, but a definitely grey one. As I said before, while I acknowledge that there is a definite difference between a strap sewn by hand, and one done on a sewing machine, nothing will change the fact that the sewing machine will only do what the operator wants it to do. In both instances, be it hand sewing or by sewing machine, the maker is responsible for what happens.

The rest of the article is of no interest to me whatsoever. The quote you provided summed up perfectly. You are now proving my point for me. They are not two different methods, but one in the same. As I said in my past post, are those tools, mechanical or otherwise, controlled by the operator? The simple answer is "Yes they are". As long as something is 'manually-controlled', then that, by the definition given, allows the product to come under the catagory.

The point still stands about the electric guitars.

The point also stands that if you want to insist on 'hand-made' being such an exclusive standard, then only Human hands can be used in the process, and, as pointed out with the comment about chewing through leather, is a standard I doubt any artisan works to. As I said, I'd be prepared to compromise between the two and call such items 'hand-tooled' as that covers both the human and the tool aspects. If you disagree, so be it, we will have to agree to disagree, as I am not prepared to keep debating an issue which has not only become cyclical, but one where definitions you provided actually counter your own argument, and I see no reason to keep reitterating the same points which that definition also specifies.

Edited September 29, 2007 by TeeJay

[tootall]

I went and researched the heck out of this subject over at FTC. I am fully ready to give up my stance if I am incorrect. However, I cam across a great explanation for handmade:

In the U.S. handmade jewelry is strictly defined by the FTC as

being made 100% by hand. This means that no electricity may be

used at all. No flexshafts to cut seats, no motors for

polishing, ect.

So that is the best description I have found. I was using the wrong words in mechanical devices or machines. This shows the best explanation of the law from the FTC. No use of electricity. Hope that helps.

[wjlamp]

I went and researched the heck out of this subject over at FTC. I am fully ready to give up my stance if I am incorrect. However, I cam across a great explanation for handmade:

So that is the best description I have found. I was using the wrong words in mechanical devices or machines. This shows the best explanation of the law from the FTC. No use of electricity. Hope that helps.

Thanks for the guide.

By the way.

My sis had, and still has,a big sewing machine that operates with a foot pedal . It is made by Singer England.Big thing.No wires no motors. It is still a machine though.

[Oszolom]

That is sooo funny that I will try again:

- If someone uses heavy stone to kill calf before leather sheet will come to your leather dealer is it OK to call strap made of those calf "handmade"?

- If someone uses toxic gas produced by electric driven factory to kill calf before leather sheet will come to your leather dealer is it OK to call strap made of those calf "handmade"?

- If someone uses electric shock to kill calf before leather sheet will come to your leather dealer is it OK to call strap made of those calf "handmade"?

I went and researched the heck out of this subject over at FTC. I am fully ready to give up my stance if I am incorrect. However, I cam across a great explanation for handmade:

So that is the best description I have found. I was using the wrong words in mechanical devices or machines. This shows the best explanation of the law from the FTC. No use of electricity. Hope that helps.

This is most odd thing I ever read about defining anything.

You are stating here that I can call "handmade" jewellery/strap/whatever which is made in fully automated process driven by fuel combustion engine, steam engine or waterwheel????

Or maybe adding this "manually controlled" eyewash You are trying to say that "handmade" product comes from any factory powered by fuel combustion engine, steam engine or waterwheel except those which uses some sort of programable process (i.e. punched card widely used in XIX century textile industry).

[TeeJay]

I went and researched the heck out of this subject over at FTC. I am fully ready to give up my stance if I am incorrect. However, I cam across a great explanation for handmade:

So that is the best description I have found. I was using the wrong words in mechanical devices or machines. This shows the best explanation of the law from the FTC. No use of electricity. Hope that helps.

We're not talking about jewellery though, are we, we're talking about watch straps, so that definition does not apply. Besides, the other definition said 'manually-controlled', and such things, electrical or otherwise, are still manually-controlled.

[tootall]

We're not talking about jewellery though, are we, we're talking about watch straps, so that definition does not apply. Besides, the other definition said 'manually-controlled', and such things, electrical or otherwise, are still manually-controlled.

That other definition was from the same section, so does it also not apply?

The reason these are about jewelry is that the same section that includes jewelry also includes leather and watch bands. Section 16. So like I have said before, go read it. It will take you a while like it did me, but I have done it. Also like I said before, even after being proven wrong with a standard you still say your position is correct. If you don't accept the standard, we have nothing more to go on. I was more than willing to let my position, but you seem to still be saying 8", even after proven otherwise.

Oszolom, you need to grow up. Realize they are not talking about raising a cow by only hand feeding it. Or that you kill it with human hands. Your argument is utter nonsense. They are talking about taking the raw ingredients and producing a product from it. So please, go sit in the corner while the grown ups talk.

[TeeJay]

That other definition was from the same section, so does it also not apply?

Of course it does not apply. One relates to jewellery, the other does not. The first FTC definition you quoted clearly stated hand labour and manually-controlled methods.

Oszolom, you need to grow up. Realize they are not talking about raising a cow by only hand feeding it. Or that you kill it with human hands. Your argument is utter nonsense. They are talking about taking the raw ingredients and producing a product from it. So please, go sit in the corner while the grown ups talk.

Why does Oszolom need to grow up? The points they make are totally valid. If you want to consider a strap to be 100% hand made, you are left with the position of cutting the leather with your teeth and nails. Pushing the thread through the holes (bitten through, of course) by hand without a needle. Sorry, but if you're going to try and insist that 'hand made is hand made', that's the level you have to be reduced to. The FTC definition, as mentioned above, stated "Hand labor AND manually-controlled methods". Using tools and manually controlled machines, falls under the remit of 'manually-controlled methods'.

To be honest, I'm getting sick of wasting time debating an issue with someone clearly unwilling to accept that their own definitions have proved the point against them, and to be honest, you're starting to look like a troll. People have more important things to discuss than if a strap is being incorrectly labelled as 'hand-made', 'hand-crafted' or 'hand-tooled'...

[Oszolom]

Oszolom, you need to grow up. Realize they are not talking about raising a cow by only hand feeding it. Or that you kill it with human hands. Your argument is utter nonsense. They are talking about taking the raw ingredients and producing a product from it. So please, go sit in the corner while the grown ups talk.

What You are doing is continuously not answering none of the questions I am asking. I know that after all that whangydoodles You wrote, You must have pain in the ass answering any question asked by anybody.

So let us know You kosher expert of "handmade" jewellery:

If I am using fuel combustion engine or steam engine or waterweel to cut or polish diamonds i can call final product "handmade"?

If I am using electric engine to cut or polish diamonds i can't call final product "handmade"?

So please, go sit in the corner, stop serving all that demagogic [censored] and try to answer maybe one simple question. It is not so hard to think as You imagine.

Edited September 29, 2007 by Oszolom

[tootall]

What You are doing is continuously not answering none of the questions I am asking. I know that after all that whangydoodles You wrote, You must have pain in the ass answering any question asked by anybody.

So let us know You kosher expert of "handmade" jewellery:

If I am using fuel combustion engine or steam engine or waterweel to cut or polish diamonds i can call final product "handmade"? Ask the FTC as I did. Go read the article. Their definition would say no, but they would also be the law as to definition

If I am using electric engine to cut or polish diamonds i can't call final product "handmade"? Correct

So please, go sit in the corner, stop serving all that demagogic [censored] and try to answer maybe one simple question. It is not so hard to think as You imagine.

Hope that helps. And please go back and read the quote part where I have answered all your questions.

Edited September 29, 2007 by tootall