Unknown ETA 2824 Movement - More info gathered.

[Guest TTK]

Hold on a second.....you joined here less than a month ago and have 24 post and you wanna lay down the law....NOBODY is CERTAIN that these are NOT Swiss......and lest we all forget.....when everyone of us 1st came online looking for those 5x magic letters on the dial.....there was very little consideration with regard to whether or not it came with an ETA or Ford V8 engine,....as long as the fukking thing works.....that's the only real consideration ....the problem here is that there too many 'experts' who mislead those 'non-experts'.....and quite frankly I'm fed up to the back teeth of all those 'experts' that all the sheeple follow.......as for pricing...I price according to the price I pay from my supplier.....that's all....if my supplier tells me it's Swiss ETA ....and it's the movement as shown above.....until somebody comes along and slaps me over the head with a wet fish and says....THAT IS NOT AN ETA movement......then that's what it'll be sold as....regardless of any 'expert' here's opinion....!

[Bravoz]

I do not know why you are firing up and judging me by my post count.

You must have missed the "In My Humble Opinion Part"

[bwhitesox]

TTK I don't think Bravoz was 'laying down the law' but has a valid point with what he said. Seems like a conflict of interest for you to be posting here...Perhaps leave it up to the Forum members and The Zigmeister to reach a conclusion without your usual spin and defamation.

[Guest TTK]

Your humble opinion has no validity......it's your post note statement...."They should be priced accordingly."

According to what or whom.....NOBODY has established exactly what these are....see The Zigmeister's defining statement.....

"I am basing my comments and conclusions on my own experience, that’s all. It’s not based on any facts beyond this."

The unfortunat thing here is that even The Zigmeister has mislead members here......simply by the implication in the comparative photos...."ASIAN vs ETA"

even he does NOT KNOW and cannot corroborate entirely that this is NOT ETA.......as a comparison...read r11co's post above in which he contradicts The Zigmeister by stating the he HAS seen a Kif-Flector shock absorber on a GENUINE ETA 28 series movement ......that leads to only one conclusion...and that is that there is no ABSOLUTE proof one way or the other.....but you're demanding that dealers should price accordingly....!

Perhaps you should prioritise reading as opposed to posting.....!

Edited November 6, 2007 by TTK

[Guest TTK]

@bwhitesox....!

Perhaps you should gp and boil yer heid.....!

Edited November 6, 2007 by TTK

[Bravoz]

Let me retract my statement then

IMHO TTK:

IMHO, no one is complaining about reliability and longetivity but rather the cost of the 'Asian' ETA being sold as 'Swiss' ETA.

=)

IMHO, they should be priced accordingly.

I hope I have relieved some of you distress. My apologies.

[dadog13]

I am only interested if the parts are visually different or they cannot be interchanged from the two different movements in question....

[sam_tgg]

First of all: if just The Zigmeister could note the difference bettween both machines, it is more than possible that none of our "suppliers" knows the reallity, and have tools to do it so. They are not especialist and they buy and sell close watches, so they know what the factories says.

Other point is that itself, ETA has at least three different prices for the eta 7750. Official prices with different quality (at least in Spain, with ETA official distributors).

[stevethebest]

I have to sincerely agree with TTK: the two movements are absolutely similar, even if less refined, the first one (i would not call it Asian) seems to work perfectly. If there is a really different quality and durability it should be assessed before shouting at the crime...

Great pics and comparison from The Zigmeister, anyway, whose watchsmithing and pictorial skills are absolutely out of this world!

[scoobs1971]

Thnx The Zigmeister for putting time, knowledge and effort in this great review!

In the end what's important here, is price vs performance, reliabillity and maintainabillity. And off course how this movement will be advertised. Only time will learn....

[RWG Technical]

First and foremost......nobody has the right to be judge ..jury and executioner here.....why?.....because we simply DO NOT KNOW FOR CERTAIN that this is an Asian 'rep' movement.....ETA has a number of Asian plants....including a movement manufacturing plant 35 miles outside Bangkok......so there is just as much possibility that it may be an Asian ETA movement as there is of it being a 'cloned' ETA movement.........it could be manufactured to ETA spec ...albeit slightly different in terms of parts and finishing......this is very common in all industries...not just watches......!

My error, text and title changed to reflect "Unknown Movement" since that is how I see this one, it's not like anything I have seen before.

The key question is ...do the hands go round and round...and tell the time.....if yes....what's the problem........the lack of fine finishing is only important on load bearing surfaces....if there is no load.....no friction....no need for highly polished parts...unless it is to be used in an open caseback watch.....!

I never commented that the movement was not of good quality, all I pointed out were the visual differences I see between this unknown movement and the ETA ones I have seen in the past.

Whilst I have every respect for Ziggy's watchsmithing experience.....it's beyond the ken of all men to be 100% certain of anything.....the important thing here is that we understand the movement in terms of reliability and longevity.....properly serviced and lubed it is probably well capable of doing the same job as it's perceived ETA equivalent......proof of that is available from Ziggy himself......I sold him a 188 around 3 years ago....cloned Asian 7750 mov't......in fact he got his from the 1st batch I sold....my own 196 came from that same batch.....and has been running for the last 3 years with absolutely no servicing ......Ziggy will....without doubt...confirm that many of these Asian movements.....cloned or not...are very good running movements.....!

I agree 100%. My 188 is still going strong, and it's a A7750, the old version...

I have always stood up for the Asian movements, and clearly stated for the past 3 years that any movement that is properly serviced, will last a lifetime. An unserviced or dirty movement is not going to last.

RG

[RWG Technical]

The unfortunat thing here is that even Ziggy has mislead members here......simply by the implication in the comparative photos...."ASIAN vs ETA"

It has never been my intention to mislead anyone at anytime or for any reason.

I used the terms that everyone recognizes, I see now that this is misleading, so I have edited my post to reflect this fact.

It's now called an "Unknown Movement"

RG

[RWG Technical]

Since this topic seems to have lead to more questions, mainly "Quality and functionality" of this particular movement, here's what I am going to do:

1. I will take the movement apart (on my nickel and my time), tear it down, inspect it in detail, and see how it looks.

2. I am going to service it fully, and once finished, see how it performs (great deal for the owner who send it in for relume only).

While the movement is torn down, I will take a known ETA 2824 that I have in stock, and see if any or all of the parts are compatible with this movement. That should put to rest interchangeability and spare parts questions, as well as origin. ETA parts, no matter the grade, are interchangeable across the same caliber number, ie all 2824 parts fit any 2824 movement, etc. This is clearly indicated on the ETA tech data sheets.

I don't regard any of my posts as anything but my point of view, but I see that I have short changed my impact on the members here, that is an error on my part. It's not my intention ever to mislead anyone on the forum, but it seems as if this could be interpreted this way. In other words, someone gets a watch with this movement in it, and starts complaining.

To avoid any further problems, I'll answer all the questions we need answered.

Sorry if I mislead anyone.

RG

[Guest watchbuff]

Fact is, IF these watch movemetns are cloned and It is for certain they are. They must come at different cost than the Swis version. If the suppliers are fleecing dealers for higher profit margins and selling their "unkown movements" as swiss and dealers are going to "assume" or even if they know "play stupid" with the fact and but the $ in their pocket if their supplier is up-front with them.

I do beleive Asian movements are cloned from ETA's there is a little factory out there doing it and supplying the market on a scale that we do not realize. It could have been a sub-standard ETA but even the experienced ones here could not tell.

I took courses in forgery and counterfeiting and can see just from my observation of the ETA stamp that it is off from the stap die ETA would supply to it's "outsourced" factory

It's not like putting a DKNY label on LEE jeans and selling them as true DKNY clothing.

These watches have tell tale marks all over from markings to mill grain that will tell where they came from and how they were made.

If a dealer is going to sell swiss, it had better be swiss. Price is the price. Supply and demand. But the buyer should beware.

[RWG Technical]

how will the crude machining affect the movements performance over time? how will the granular metal affect the overall funtion of the movement?

Unlikely that the machining will affect anything, it

[r11co]

It

[RWG Technical]

Fair point! It wasn't clear in the OP whether you meant the use of the KIF Flector AND the lack of cutouts for it was unusual for a 2824, or just the cutouts.

Truth be told the ETA movement I saw with a KIF shock absorber was in fact an IWC customised movement, plus I have seen a genuine Breitling customised ETA2824 (Calibre B17) with the more squared-off micro-adjustment screw (in fact, there is a picture of one here).

All we can say categorically from this is that here we have a movement that Zigs has never encountered before. As to its provenance we can only speculate, but one thing for certain is that there are legitimate variations on the ETA 2824 that we will not have encountered (until now?!) in our reps.

I edited my opening post again (4 times now...) to clear up that statement.

I have seen KIF Trior springs used on many ETA movements as well as the Incabloc ones. I was only referring to the cut-out in the shock setting, one hole is not a KIF Trior setting.

I will cross check in my Bestfit books tonight. There is a KIF Parashock setting that has one hole, and is a forerunner to this KIF Trior, but the spring it not shaped like this one, and is found on older movements...which maybe this movement is...older...like circa 1982 when first produced...who knows at this point...

RG

[Guest TTK]

@The Zigmeister....I know you well .....and how you operate... you always strive to reveal the wizard behind the curtain...which is laudable....!

I was not implying that you had DELIBERATELY mislead anyone....it's just that we have to be careful how we couch things.....there are a lot of members on these boards who will take at face value...what others imply.....and those who imply ....generally misinterpret posts such as yours...which is an excellent post....!

The use of epithets such as 'perfect" or '1:1' / ' ultimate' etc etc are picked up on by impressionable members and sometimes result in a mass hysteria effect....such as......."they should be priced accordingly'......!

Edited November 6, 2007 by TTK

[r11co]

which maybe this movement is...older...like circa 1982 when first produced...who knows at this point...

Nothing would surprise me in this game Rob

Wasn't it about a year past we had some of our dealers shipping 'new' watches containing ETA movements that we established had gone out of production over a decade ago?!

[RWG Technical]

@Ziggy....I know you well .....and how you operate... you always strive to reveal the wizard behind the curtain...which is laudable....!

I was not implying that you had DELIBERATELY mislead anyone....it's just that we have to be careful how we couch things.....there are a lot of members on these boards who will take at face value...what others imply.....and those who imply ....generally misinterpret posts such as yours...which is an excellent post....!

The use of epithets such as 'perfect" or '1:1' / ' ultimate' etc etc are picked up on by impressionable members and sometimes result in a mass hysteria effect....such as......."they should be priced accordingly'......!

Understood. It was never my intention to mislead anyone, just to share what I see. Post edited to reflect the possible misleading of members.

No matter, someone will always use the information to their advantage or disadvantage as they see fit. I will do the teardown and that will answer the rest of the questions.

I think it's just a really old ETA, maybe going back 25 or more years...we'll see tonight. You know how excited I get when something new comes along...just like a kid in a candy store...

RG

[Guest TTK]

Bring it on....

[dachshund]

[RWG Technical]

Does this mean that the Asian clone (if it is an Asian clone) has been around long enough to build up that much "GUNK", or is it simply and older ETA?

We'll know tonight, in about 10 hours, after I tear it down and have a look.

Gunk doesn't happen overnight, it takes a number of years. This could be a compilation of parts from the surplus market, that is not unheard of...

RG

[FxrAndy]

Out come awaited on this one, looking at the machining i would also belive that it is made a while ago and as ziggy said gunk takes a while to build up so that would also indicate age. Is it possible that old stock with etas are being ripped down to supply movements, either reps or old stock gens! sandoz and the likes? But lets wait for what ziggy before we all start shouting for the dealers to price accordingly, when you think about what they are doing, continuing to supply ETA of what ever type when even the experts here cant tell with out major investigation how can we expect the dealers to with their volume of work.

[r11co]

This might be a relatively new phenomenon for us, but 'old' movements appearing on the market as new is not unprecedented. Recently a quantity of unused 17J genuine ETA7750's came on the market. They would have had to have been at least 2 decades old as the 7750 was upgraded to 25J in the 80's.