PAM-217 MM Destro Swiss ETA

[Thor]

I waited through the all the cosmetic fumbles on this model, saw a new movt. come to light, [ the CN-ETA] Almost went with the Chinese movt., but thanks to Sean [etaswiss] was told there was a Swiss version coming and to wait for it. I am totally happy I did. I saw this watch first as a gen in the local shop and was sold on the spot. I don't yet have a fiddy and the 217 clicked for me, Destro, Marina Militare; and the 47mm fiddy case is the best new design around. The 127 and 212 have proven this in popularity, the 217 adds the 'sinister' factor with the CG and flopped dial. I will get rid of the black croc standard strap, that just isn't retro to me, which this watch screams.

Condition: Subjectively, I am 100% happy. Rep Collector eyes are for the benefit of all. The finish is a step up. I can't compare to a fiddy, but to the 212, this one is better. All brushed finish except the bezel. The CG sitting flush into the insets on the case, lots of pressure on the lever and the crown is smooth and easy to use, despite having to concern winding it - I just flip it over so that it's "right". The dial is clean, my first impression was the sandwich cutouts are too thick, but looking closer this is a distortion factor of the dome crystal, not the actual dial. The case-back appears to be a 1950 regarding the serial numbers &tc.

I haven't had it in the dark, but it glows under a cupped hand, so I belive the lum is right up there with the PAM111H's level. The lum is white with just the tiniest, faintest hint of green which could even be it glowing in room light. Recessed pin is there, no dispute. But let's take a look at the movement. I have gone with the Swiss ETA 6497 on my 183, 111 and now the 217. The quality of the this movement has gotten better. They have reworked the bridges and improved the Cote de Geneve finish. It is more pronounced and etched finer. The two post circles on the middle bridge have been all but disappeared, you have to really look for them now, if you didn't know they were there, you'd probably never see them without at least magnification. The font has been corrected and YES, it is upside down on this model, you don't really think they'd make engraved bridges for this one model do you? (The CN-ETA version has stick-on letters which can be easily flipped and so you will see it that way on that version.) The Swan is becoming more and more visually true, the two winding gears are radially etched.

Look for this movement, visually it's getting really close at this point and hope that all newer Swiss gutted reps use it.

images - things to look for: Clean new dial font - 4 sec. low light lum shot - CG - brushed case - improved movt. finish - radial gear finish - crisp Cote de Geneve - post circles only show up in image, not to eyes - gold engraved text should be blue! - OFFICINE PANERAI upside-down - back case is for 1950 - in all the flaws are nitpicks at best ...

[Thor]

Good stuff - thanks for this. I can't wait for the photos.

added images

thanks for sharing great piece...

I am sorry but this looks like chinese movement to me, it may help to examine EL pics on TRC(replicacollector.com>trade area>dealers>Eddie Lee)

Sorry Adam, it's Swiss. Finished gears, Swan Neck, well shaped big wheel and of course visible ETA marks under the balance wheel...

you did not follow my suggestions to examine EL pics, otherwise you would see what i see and there is no doubt it is chinese movement with added piece of metal which you call "swan neck"

hello

this one is swiss and not a cn movement.... look at the pics.... the cn have plates and here you see the pins that only the swiss have...

best wishes

olreon

No no it is definitive a swiss movement

new asia movement haven´t swan neck, also a smaller balance wheel

but ziggy tell us, that the unitas movements in pam replica are NOT genuine swiss product, because some parts are different???

i think the unitas movements in reps are produced by eta in asia (eta have 2 factorys in asia) and so it is little different from swiss produced movements. Same is with gold color eta 2836-2 movements: they are produced also in asia by eta and not the same quality as swiss produced movements. I know it, because i purchase much unitas and swiss movements from swiss eta factory.- i am from germany

also i think your movemnt looks good, but i have the same watch purchase from Homer, and i think my movemnt looks little better. I think this is because your pics is not perfect. On pics look a movement not so good as real.

all in all i think GREAT WATCH and i congratulate you...

regards

A photo lighted, is harsh on a movement, it shows all warts so to speak. This movement looks awesome to the eye/loupe. As I mentioned you have to really look to see the post circles on the centre bridge.

I don't know what Adam is on about, a CN-ETA is so easy to spot, even in a picture, he's missed all the visual clues: ETA stamped below balance wheel, plated vs real engraved bridges, ie. Bridge post circles!, Swan neck present. engraved text - [the Chinese ETA has stick on letter for text, a BIG difference between engraved, and the only text on a CN is OFFICINE PANERAI, all other outer text is missing.

Adam take a look at an earlier post I did:

Visual 17J PW movement guide

It's designed to help figure out which is which from photos alone. Check it out.

What you are showing has nothing today with the Swan Neck. The Swan Neck is the big bent piece of metal formed over the adjuster on the left hand movement. The right one obviously doesn't have the Swan Neck. BTW it's named like that, because it somehow looks like the neck of a Swan...

It is the paul's version of 217.

It has the mineral crystal.

The casing is not right either. It is out of 1950 instead of 1000 like Eddie's.

The latest version from Eddie is sapphire, and casing is out of 1000 like the original.

I had 2 version of 212.

The earlier mineral version was from Paul

http://www.aspire-eshop.com/product_info.p...products_id=898

Nevertheless, it is still a great piece.

The crown guard from Paul is not as solid as Eddie's.

The movt form Paul, I have serious doubt it is swiss as well.

Adam is sharp.

I believe Adam is referring to the piece surrounding the balance jewels. It has no "notch" in his swiss picture. But other swiss pictures have a notch, so I don't think that's an issue. Movement looks great regardless.

Forgive me if any of my terminology is incorrect.

This movt is Swiss. I don't know what Adam and his friends are talking about?! Take a closed look - Adam your pics are of little help as they are both reps.

Look at the gen and see what you think - I SAY SWISS!

No, read the text, or stare at the pictures longer. The watch you link to has a totally incorrect dial!! Why compare apples with oranges?

If you read my text you'll see I state where I got the watch, you will also note I mentioned the 1950 caseback serial aspect. Crystal, I didn't say but I am sure it's mineral glass, no dispute.

Going back to what Adam is pointing out in his images. He is showing a Swiss and a CN movt in those pics, yes. But what he is highlighting is those two particular movements have different types of Shock resistance on the balance pivots. Both which are BTW, Swiss Made. The CN image one is the more commonly seen shock resist, brand, INCABLOC and the SWISS ETA in that picture is I think, a KIF Shock Resist, [Ziggy would probably spot the brand by sight better than I from those less than sharp images.] But the brand of shock resistance does not determine a movement's Calibre or ebauche. It's just a part and there are more than one kind. INCABLOC is the most common. The images of my watch's movement has INCABLOC shock resistance and if that is how you base your determination on where a movement is made, I am afraid you are going to get it wrong, just as you have done here.

EL posted pics of chinese 6497 on TRC>Dealers>EL , except for "swan neck" it looks exactly like the movement in "L-Swiss Made-L Destro", "swan neck" is added to chinese 6497

post the image here, showing the entire movement because the chinese PLATED bridges don't have all the text around the edge which would bark a visual difference that if you can't see that you just think differently than I do. And for CN movement to have the Swan neck regulator? well that will be a first.

Look at these, then scroll up to the 217, if you can't see the difference. I'm done trying mate.

SIDE BY SIDE: and both of these have INCABLOC btw ...

Here is the new Chinese 6497 image note LACK OF any bloody text!!!

Here is the Swiss ETA 6497 image

Okay Adam, I used your references, ie. Eddie Lee's pics of what he calls the C Class, read Chinese movement. and his A1 or Swiss movement version.

Again, all you need to do is look at the images of the movements to see the Visual Tells, the things that can help anyone spot which movement is in a watch, despite what it may claim. Eddie has both descibed spot on, where is all goes odd is in your interpretation. ( I am not trying to flame you, but I think this debate is really confusing to those trying to learn about spotting these differences.)

Take a close look at the Swiss image balance wheel jewel (the centre of the bulls-eye, big red jewel) This makes up the Shock Resisting System, which all modern balance's possess. The most famous system is made by Portescape or as they are called now, Incabloc. You see the term Incabloc tossed around all the time, it is the brand name that has since become the definition. It's not the only Swiss company that makes Shock Resist Systems, in fact the pictured one in EL's listing is probably the number 2 know name-brand KIF. Neither of these brands will determine the origin of the movement as this part is added to the body of the movement and if you look at the older replica images of Panerais, you will notice that a while back there was more KIF than INCABLOC. It probably depends more on availabilty than anything else, since it appears that even Generic Swiss ETA movements can come with one or the other. Just to compare, even the Chinese movt. uses a Swiss made Shock resist, [or they have copied it, dead-spot on.]

images of Eddie Lee's 217-C

Chinese movt 6497-2 - again, look close at the image. No Swan neck, no ETA stamp on main body, Plated Cote de Geneve applied finish to bridges. OFFICINE PANERAI text is Raised and is applied stickers; you can pick it off with your fingernail!!! Pluse there is no text around the edges, which is why his image probably doesn't show the case removed, Also I may point out his image is of a 44mm case not a 47mm case otherwise you could see near the edge of the movt through the window as well. Winding gears are not finished. Balance wheel arms have large faired ends. Golden plug on regulator needle is solid rectangle.

Eddie Lee's Swiss 217-A1

Swiss movt 6497-1 - in contrast Eddie Swiss movement has similar Visual Tells which confirm it is indeed Swiss sourced. A Swan neck regulator. ETA will be stamped on base movement under balance wheel. Cote de Geneve finish on bridges is Engraved into the bridges, not applied as a plate over the original --- All the text is there and it's engraved. You can't pick off the text here, nor can you remove the Cote de Geneve plates, you can on the CN-ETA ... Note that image of this movement shows the entire movt and shows off all the edge text, that's because it's actually there! Balance wheel arms on ETA are not as flaired, Winding gears are finished with radial etching. The golden hairspring plug rectangle on the regulator needle will have a round dimple in it.

@ L Swiss L (enzo) I get the feeling that there are many people on this post who do not know what they are talking about. I think it is pointless to try to convince those who don't have a clue what they are looking at.

BTW your SWISS movt looks great.

If anyone thinks that this is the old dial version they should run straight to the eye doctor.

wise point I will stick to answering questions that don't require debate.

[infinitime]

very informative

[silvio]

Looks real nice & the lume is very even.

Thanks for sharing.

[dadog13]

nice read @thor!

i am waiting for my 217 to arrive...now i can't wait!