crystalcranium Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 Look, I know we all treat this replica business like it's amazon.com or Wal-Mart but this is illegal you know. I feel for my collector friend but I consider losses like this part of the cost of doing business. I got scammed many times 20 years ago buying a half an ounce that was 50% oregano but where the f*&$ was I going to [censored] to? The fact is all we can do is police ourselves and the business as best we can and, unfortunatly for the guy who is out $500, an event such as this should give everyone pause from doing business with Angus again should he ever re-surface, and serve as a reminder that whenever we stick our hard earned cash into an illegal trade, the chances of this happening are decidedly not zero. Yes, an email would be nice and responsible but a guy who lives on the other side of the world, doing business in an illegal trade, probably does not give a [censored] about you or your $500. He can always re-surface in another cyber persona with a clean reputational slate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 Of course I guess now Theo the paypal payment is long gone more than 45 days... At the moment my friend you can ONLY wait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 Look, I know we all treat this replica business like it's amazon.com or Wal-Mart but this is illegal you know. I feel for my collector friend but I consider losses like this part of the cost of doing business. I got scammed many times 20 years ago buying a half an ounce that was 50% oregano but where the f*&$ was I going to [censored] to? The fact is all we can do is police ourselves and the business as best we can and, unfortunatly for the guy who is out $500, an event such as this should give everyone pause from doing business with Angus again should he ever re-surface, and serve as a reminder that whenever we stick our hard earned cash into an illegal trade, the chances of this happening are decidedly not zero. Yes, an email would be nice and responsible but a guy who lives on the other side of the world, doing business in an illegal trade, probably does not give a [censored] about you or your $500. He can always re-surface in another cyber persona with a clean reputational slate. Thanks for the response. I understand the nature of the business.. and it is true, sometimes you need to cut your losses and lick your wounds. I would expect that to be the case if you are a dealer or a buyer. Nevertheless, when Josh got hosed by Bonnar, we saw a lot of people here, including moderators offering to intervene with everything up to and including "carpet bombing" phone calls and tips to the italian authorities. And I agree, as a community we should all be trying to help Josh, or anyone else on this site (including PAM) who gets hosed. Personally, I am not necessarily in favor of those tactics, but if you are going to agree to deploy them to help Josh, shouldn't you also step up to help PAM? I realized Angus may be in some trouble, but there has to be someway he can reach out to PAM .. a note.. anything... especially since it seems as though he has managed to get to a couple of his other clients in the interim. I realize I am relatively new here but it seems like a common courtesey to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 Thanks for the response. I understand the nature of the business.. and it is true, sometimes you need to cut your losses and lick your wounds. I would expect that to be the case if you are a dealer or a buyer. Nevertheless, when Josh got hosed by Bonnar, we saw a lot of people here, including moderators offering to intervene with everything up to and including "carpet bombing" phone calls and tips to the italian authorities. And I agree, as a community we should all be trying to help Josh, or anyone else on this site (including PAM) who gets hosed. Personally, I am not necessarily in favor of those tactics, but if you are going to agree to deploy them to help Josh, shouldn't you also step up to help PAM? I realized Angus may be in some trouble, but there has to be someway he can reach out to PAM .. a note.. anything... especially since it seems as though he has managed to get to a couple of his other clients in the interim. I realize I am relatively new here but it seems like a common courtesey to me. Agreed, but honor among theives is something of a lofty expectation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 Agreed, but honor among theives is something of a lofty expectation. BTW, your oregeno analogy made me smile and took me back to days of yore. alas.. the good ole' days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 BTW, your oregeno analogy made me smile and took me back to days of yore. alas.. the good ole' days! Ahhhhh Yes, before drug testing and parenthood and home ownership with a mortgage....the good ole days complete with long term loss of short term memory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relaxman Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 2) yes of course it´s nearly 500 hard earned bucks I paid to receive nothing (so far), but it´s also illegal for the buyer....so it is risky to be in this business. I am not saying that I give a [censored] on the money, it is just that I (as a customer) need to have reputation as well....I order a lot of watches, I pay lightning fast......and so I expect a good service. ...and another week goes by.....no news or answer or mail from my RESPONSIBLE DEALER Careful there, got to keep that reputation oh crap I stuck my nose back in. Sorry its just such a humorous thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 Careful there, got to keep that reputation oh crap I stuck my nose back in. Sorry its just such a humorous thread. I know you get this but all kidding aside what i am really struck by here is the lack of outrage. It just seems to me that when a dealer is wronged we are ready to kill the person who wronged him, but i do not sense the same level of venom directed towards the person who harms the purchaser. I am not sure I get it. I want to be clear.. my view is that niether dealers or buyers should be wronged, I feel that both deserve our support equally. I just do not see that here, and I really do not understand why. If i am wrong, I would like someone to tell he how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 If i am wrong, I would like someone to tell he how. It's remarkably straight-forward. A dealer being ripped off jeopardises all of us. All our future purchases are in peril. For better or for worse, it's a selfish and natural reaction. A customer being ripped off, there's really not a lot we can do, apart from ban that dealer, as has been done with Sichuan, Lucky, etc. This is a case of a dealer just disappearing. No amount of outrage will make him turn up. Other cases have been customer errors masquerading as dealers ripping people off, so it's a little difficult to get outraged at a dealer when it's not their fault. Angus looks like he's gone, and no amount of outrage will make him return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relaxman Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 I know you get this but all kidding aside what i am really struck by here is the lack of outrage. It just seems to me that when a dealer is wronged we are ready to kill the person who wronged him, but i do not sense the same level of venom directed towards the person who harms the purchaser. I am not sure I get it. I want to be clear.. my view is that niether dealers or buyers should be wronged, I feel that both deserve our support equally. I just do not see that here, and I really do not understand why. If i am wrong, I would like someone to tell he how. Im with you my man. Its a two way street my brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 It's remarkably straight-forward. A dealer being ripped off jeopardises all of us. All our future purchases are in peril. For better or for worse, it's a selfish and natural reaction. A customer being ripped off, there's really not a lot we can do, apart from ban that dealer, as has been done with Sichuan, Lucky, etc. This is a case of a dealer just disappearing. No amount of outrage will make him turn up. Other cases have been customer errors masquerading as dealers ripping people off, so it's a little difficult to get outraged at a dealer when it's not their fault. Angus looks like he's gone, and no amount of outrage will make him return. Thanks for the reply, but I am still a bit curious. When a board member misbehaves, several people offered to use board resources to try to track him down. Is that option not available for misbehaving dealers? The reason this is so striking to me, is that most of us are not dealers and we are more likly to be in PAM's shoes than Josh or Eddie's. As such, it would appear to be in our best interests to ensure that we as buyers act in a way that is consistent with our collective good. In other words, the dynamic here sometimes seems a bit unbalanced and the priorities a bit off to me. The reaction to the members who hosed Josh, Eddie and others was so visceral... i mean carpet bombing with calls, tipping off authorities, proposals to change buying procedures for new members... it was as if somebody punched out a Rock Star. By comparison, the reaction to PAM's circumstance was pretty nonchalant. it just surprises me considering that at some point in time, we are all more likely to be in PAM's shoes than we will be in Josh or Eddie's. Again, i want to stress that what happened to Josh and Eddie is shameful. As a community, we should all feel outraged for the circumstances of dealers who are mistreated by unscrupulous buyers. But I feel equally strong about what happened to PAM. Anyway, this is just an observation, and I hope no one takes it personally because I have found the people on this board to be very nice and extremely generous in sharing their knowledge with the rest of us and I have greatly benefitted from the good advise of the regular contributers. Afterall, no one has to take the time to educate us noobs. Still, objectively, it sometimes appears that we are extremely sensitive to the plight of our dealers to the point of losing site over the fact that we live on opposite sides of the equation... they sell we buy. I realize they are honorable people, and to many friends as well as collectors. They are certainly an important part of this community (more so than me) and deserve our respect and courtesey, as well as our assitance in resolving business related issues. But so do the buyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 Thanks for the reply, but I am still a bit curious. When a board member misbehaves, several people offered to use board resources to try to track him down. Is that option not available for misbehaving dealers? Sure it is, but what does anyone have to gain? I'm not trying to paint a picture of us all as selfish egoists, but we have absolutely nothing invested personally in tracking down an errant dealer. Sure, as a group, we'll pull the stops out, even down to a whip-around to cover a failed investment for a bunch of people, but when it comes down to it, we have absolutely nothing to gain getting one bloke his $500 back. Sure, I'd love to help, but let's be honest, it's a waste of effort. I'd rather spend my energy on another pictorial, or teaching some n00b about Subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alextor Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 Sure, I'd love to help, but let's be honest, it's a waste of effort. I'd rather spend my energy on another pictorial, or teaching some n00b about Subs. ....or oregano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 Sure it is, but what does anyone have to gain? I'm not trying to paint a picture of us all as selfish egoists, but we have absolutely nothing invested personally in tracking down an errant dealer. Sure, as a group, we'll pull the stops out, even down to a whip-around to cover a failed investment for a bunch of people, but when it comes down to it, we have absolutely nothing to gain getting one bloke his $500 back. Sure, I'd love to help, but let's be honest, it's a waste of effort. I'd rather spend my energy on another pictorial, or teaching some n00b about Subs. Ok, I will make one more comment and than get off my soapbox. What we have to gain by helping him get his money back in this instance, and sticking up for each other generally, is a reduced liklihood that this will happen again. This also why we should continue to help wronged dealers, to discourage bad behavior (although in either case I am opposed to some of the extreme measures proposed) I am not sure what actions we can do help out PAM.. maybe the board admin can provide him with some contact info it it is known, or attempt to contact Angus on his behalf. They might have greater leverage with him. Certainly, Angus should not be permitted back unless and until he can provide a reasonable explanation for what happened. Whatever we can do that is reasonable and does not cut into your time to educate noobs or post pictorals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alextor Posted August 15, 2006 Report Share Posted August 15, 2006 Ok, I will make one more comment and than get off my soapbox. What we have to gain by helping him get his money back in this instance, and sticking up for each other generally, is a reduced liklihood that this will happen again. This also why we should continue to help wronged dealers, to discourage bad behavior (although in either case I am opposed to some of the extreme measures proposed) I am not sure what actions we can do help out PAM.. maybe the board admin can provide him with some contact info it it is known, or attempt to contact Angus on his behalf. They might have greater leverage with him. Certainly, Angus should not be permitted back unless and until he can provide a reasonable explanation for what happened. Whatever we can do that is reasonable and does not cut into your time to educate noobs or post pictorals You just said it all...PAM kept his cool and called for help and advice...he sends money...no word from Angus...not even an acknowledgement...(this is not Walmart mentality by the way...) We all thought he'd come back with the goods or a refund...nothing happened...Peer pressure is healthy and goes both ways...there is got to be a recourse for those exceptional cases where dealers don't come through...revoking selling privileges in the board may be an option but is up to the Admin... Also, Paul may be laying low but laying low does not mean he is a covert op on duty on the mountains in Afghanistan...just a single line letting PAM know what gives (even if he says sorry I'll refund as soon as I can)...Given the facts as we see them now...there is unwillingness to do the right thing until proven otherwise... It's the principle.... and the money too...as always is in the affairs of this world... My two cents...loved the oregano bit ...I'll try it tonight with some cumin and peppercorns...I won't fly but my [censored] is gonna burst in flames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MADRED7 Posted August 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 (edited) Guys, c´mon calm down please! ´My post was not to start some blackmailing on a dealer or start any action of self-judgment. I just want an information, that´s all. OK, lost 500$ but this will not keep me from buying reps and post on this forum. So I believe we can close this book and get on with our 2nd life (the rep hobby) Thank you all for your kind words and help, I will still hope that Angus will appear once again. Best wishes, Theo Edited August 17, 2006 by PAM1A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Guys, c´mon calm down please! ´My post was not to start some blackmailing on a dealer or start any action of self-judgment. I just want an information, that´s all. OK, lost 500$ but this will not keep me from buying reps and post on this forum. So I believe we can close this book and get on with our 2nd life (the rep hobby) Thank you all for your kind words and help, I will still hope that Angus will appear once again. Best wishes, Theo Hi Theo, I do not think anyone here advocates blackmail or over the top measures, But let me ask you this.. if you do not get your $500, or watch back, would you be ok with having Angus reappear as if nothing happened? Don't get me wrong, I certainly hope he is o.k. but don't you think ur entittled to an explanation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MADRED7 Posted August 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 DID I SAY CLOSE THE THREAD??????? NOOOOO, the story continues and will hopefully have a happy ending.....ANGUS / PureTime showed up again on the other forum Will keep you updated, Theo (aka Thorsten) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanerich Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 Thanks for the reply, but I am still a bit curious. When a board member misbehaves, several people offered to use board resources to try to track him down. Is that option not available for misbehaving dealers? Not to be cynical, but I think the reality is that most of us understand that any of the dealers may very well flake out, get arrested, get bored with their side career, decide it's more profitable to sell fake iPods, whatever. Many dealers have come through here, were good or even great for a while, then took off like thieves in the night. This doesn't make them inherently crooks, even legit businesses shutter up and leave town with people stuck with their bills when times are tight. And Pugwash is right, there's not much you can do. We were able to buy from them in the first place because they were good at dodging legal responsibility; turnabout can be a [censored] like that. So all you can ever do is try to find a dealer who seems reliable and try to keep him happy and solvent so you keep getting watches as long as you can. You're right it's not fair to the buyers, but that's the life of a junkie. Also, another reason we get more [censored] at buyers who cause problems is that they often create problems for reasons that many of us consider completely unjustified, which dealers generally do not do. Theo's situation is emphatically not such a case, but buyers often do things like get paypal accounts froze because they didn't get their watch in 72 hours or they didn't really like what they got or some such silly sh*t. Obviously we get pissy at people who just don't know how to behave like grownups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 Not to be cynical, but I think the reality is that most of us understand that any of the dealers may very well flake out, get arrested, get bored with their side career, decide it's more profitable to sell fake iPods, whatever. Many dealers have come through here, were good or even great for a while, then took off like thieves in the night. This doesn't make them inherently crooks, even legit businesses shutter up and leave town with people stuck with their bills when times are tight. And Pugwash is right, there's not much you can do. We were able to buy from them in the first place because they were good at dodging legal responsibility; turnabout can be a [censored] like that. So all you can ever do is try to find a dealer who seems reliable and try to keep him happy and solvent so you keep getting watches as long as you can. You're right it's not fair to the buyers, but that's the life of a junkie. Also, another reason we get more [censored] at buyers who cause problems is that they often create problems for reasons that many of us consider completely unjustified, which dealers generally do not do. Theo's situation is emphatically not such a case, but buyers often do things like get paypal accounts froze because they didn't get their watch in 72 hours or they didn't really like what they got or some such silly sh*t. Obviously we get pissy at people who just don't know how to behave like grownups. I keep saying I will get off my soapbox, but somehow I cannot help myself. Your first paragraph is well put, and I agree there is not much we can do. My only comment is that if one or more of us IS in a position to contact the dealer, we should.. and we should not allow him access to the board until he explains what happened. I believe it is in our collective good to make sure NONE of us (including the dealers) are ripped off, and I still think we should be equally passionate about this irrespective of who gets burned. As far as the second paragraph is concerned, my rant is not about the general, it is about Theo's instance specifically. I am still struck over the lack of outrage for his plight... as I cannot help but think that somebody here has a connection to Angus we could leverage... but maybe i am wrong about the existence of that connection. Anyway, thanks for the thoughtfull response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanerich Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 (edited) I keep saying I will get off my soapbox, but somehow I cannot help myself. Your first paragraph is well put, and I agree there is not much we can do. My only comment is that if one or more of us IS in a position to contact the dealer, we should.. and we should not allow him access to the board until he explains what happened. I believe it is in our collective good to make sure NONE of us (including the dealers) are ripped off, and I still think we should be equally passionate about this irrespective of who gets burned. As far as the second paragraph is concerned, my rant is not about the general, it is about Theo's instance specifically. I am still struck over the lack of outrage for his plight... as I cannot help but think that somebody here has a connection to Angus we could leverage... but maybe i am wrong about the existence of that connection. Anyway, thanks for the thoughtfull response. Just to make clear, I completely agree with you that it would be nice if members stuck up for each other the way they stick up for dealers and modders. I also find it distasteful when members slam other members simply for posting legitimate gripes against "the pros" and have said as much on numerous occasions. I think part of the lack of outrage is that, like I said, dealers come and go, and when they do for good it's inevitably with some people's money. Ask members if luckyyy filled all his outstanding orders. I'm not saying it's right or even acceptable, but it is unfortunately a part of the game. But you're right, not a lot of sympathy and that is kind of embarrassing. Sorry for hijacking your Theo, promise this is the last tangential post. Well, from me anyway. Edited August 21, 2006 by kanerich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MADRED7 Posted August 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 (edited) Thx guys...so we can come back to the original thread! Theo Edited August 21, 2006 by PAM1A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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