jnkay

Well, I appreciate the comparo. We could use more of these.

I have the Orient watch you are inquiring about. There are some noticeable differences versus a rolex submariner. Mostly, it is the more subdued, matte, charcoal dial versus glossy black rolex dial. The hour markers aren't as white (not as much contrast). The band, while an excellent rolex submariner reproduction, is not as thick as a submariner bracelet. Finally, the hour markers and hands don't luminesce very well in the dark. For these reasons, and because I eventually bought two rolex sub reps and a genuine, I am wanting to sell the Orient. Still want one?

I haven't seen a better modern sub. I also am surprised this hasn't received more attention, because it apears to have corrected glaring flaws that members point always out. Other opinions.....?

From the pictures, I wouldn't know it wasn't genuine. Can't see the pearl to clearly, but the dial, rehaut depth and crystal look genuine. And for a "classic," there are no lug holes and the end link appears solid. I never got the impression from the pictures on Josh's website that his classic sub looked this accurate. Am I missing something that the picture hides?

Liked your story. Truth is, if your social or economic status, or at least perceived status, makes it plausible that you might own a several thousand dollar watch, it would never occur to 99% of the people that yours is a knockoff. Moreover, in many circles, people don't even know that good knockoffs exist, and it would never occur to them to buy one or that anyone "like them" would buy one. I know two firefighters who own new submariners. They're not rich, but they pull overtime and they like watches, so their priority was to buy the watches they want. It would never occur to me that theirs are fake (and I don't believe they are). A lot of people who idolize a certain watch will also extend themselves to buy a high-status watch. So, unless you or your social and work circles are incongrous with nice things, it's usually just not an issue! BTW, nice Explorer

Thanks. You know you got me started thinking about a gen. Seeing your pictures and reading the post after you bought it and had it on your wrist clinched it. No big discount for ss subs around where I live. $4250 USD is about as good as it gets. One or two jewelers will do it off the books--no tax. Event the preworn ss subs in mint condition go for $3800+/-. Bigger discounts on the tts. Will post some pics soon. I'll pose some next to my noobmariner.

Fountains Jewelers, in Plantation. Many jewelers will broker one for you, and the jeweler's exchanges are filled with non-authorized but reputable dealers for new and pre-owned.

Seems like you've been buying or scouting for some gens yourself. How's the gold fairing on that EL tt? After a good hard polish, mine is starting to show black streaks of tarnish, I guess.

This is my second gen (the first was a tt sub also purfhased recently). I guess you could say I have a thing for subs. I'm very much done buying any watch, gen or rep, for long enough that I have two cents to rub together in my pocket and still pay the bills! But it was worth it to me.

There are two classes of rep buyers: those that appreciate they are reps and treat them as such for novelty, collecting or just because they like the style; and those that want "perfect clones." After all, that is the name of Jos's website, so it is not unreasonable for anyone to expect great accuracy and decent quality. Overall, I think the quality of the rollie reps (my area of interest) is very good. This is something to be greatful for. The accuracy ranges from good to very good, occasionally excellent. It is only natural for those falling into the second group to expect the best, since reps are always being improved, or at least, changed, and marketed as such. So why shouldn't some people be dissapointed when the new sub comes out and has a better dial but now the crystal is wrong when it was previouisly correct? And then there is the cost, often between $200 to $300 USD. One would expect more for this price, versus the $40 reps you find on the street. On the other hand, the dealers take risks and experience losses, and this must be built into the price. What I'm saying is, we are extremely fortunate to have honest and conscientious dealers like Andrew, Jos, King, Eddie etc. Most posts on transactions are very positive. However, when it comes to the products themselves, buyers on the forum have every right to pick at the reps, as good as they have become. For one, many updates correct one thing and screw up another they had right to begin with. And for another, some of the posters desperately want genuines, but can't afford them, and get frustrated with the slow progression and occassional regression of reps. This should not be directed at the dealers. I think Andrew is 100% A+. I have to say though, that portraying the factories as trying so hard to get it right doesn't jive with previous posts explaining that the factories are purely into making money, and that there is little incentive to get it 100% right. Because, how would you get the buyer to go for the next iteration if there is no flaw to correct?

That's the nicest TT sub rep I have seen yet. Better CGs, etching and rehaut (even if not as deep as other MBWs) than other TTs being offered. From who did you get it?

Dang, here I am still reading...

What I thought was interesting about this is the that the guy who practically tried to talk me out of the gen sub IS the owner. The guy, who is not an AD, KNOWS his Rollies, whereas I've been to many ADs like Mayors and many times the salespeople there know so little about their Rollies that they think my Invicta is a sub, even when I tell them it isn't. AD does not = knowledgeable. We are all so knowledgeable about the tiniest details of our watches that we take for granted how good they really are, and that nobody will doubt the authenticity of them unless you are someone who would not likely be wearing one in the first place. In my case, at least, it was my own knowledge of the flaws that nagged at me when I wore my rep.

While I am not a frequent poster, I have lurked around for several months, reading every sub post there is, and contributed a few pictures of my genuine TT versus my Eddie Lee rep. But my two black dial stainless reps just weren't doing it fo me, and I'd been hesitant to buy a TW Classic or Andrew's newest sub and be dissapointed by whatever new or unresolved flaws exist. I figured I'd wait until a convincing ss sub came out, but not settle for "ultimate" or "best" subs which had only minor improvements. Then I read Arturo's post. He went to an AD and bit the bullet. He inspired me to do the same, convinced it could be years before a really good black dial ss sub comes out (if ever), knowing that I'm not interested in doing mods. I went to a well-known high-end jeweler who's been around for 15 years and has the largest selection of nice watches outside of Torneau, and who is known for having one of the largest volume dealer of pre-owned rolexes in Florida. As we discussed the watches, he noticed I was wearing my Trusty $108 Noobmariner. He asked to see it. He was really impressed. He had noticed that something about the dial didn't look quite right (that white glue residue or whatever under the edge of the crystal), but didn't assume it was fake because he couldn't put his finger on it from his casual glances. He noticed the movement had a junky feel to it when he wound it, but said that given a long but casual look he would have thought it was real if not for the fact that I was shopping for the identical item. The guy was suitably impressed that he asked why I would want to shell out $4200 on a genuine. Here I was feeling pretty good about my rep, which so many of us pick apart for crown cg, rehaut, etc. But I bought the gen anyway (my bank account is so hurting). While I better appreciate how good our reps are, I love wearing the gen, because it feels so solid, I know the markers won't fall off or decide to stop working at an inopportune time, but most of all, because I can't pick at or improve on it. Peace of Mind! Now maybe I can stop reading sub posts.......

If you go to Ebosa.com (there is a often a promotional link to there on this site), and you search under wristwatches, you will see scores of "aftermarket rolexes" accompanied by celar but unprofessional pictures of genuine rolexes (either the camera lens has never been cleaned or the watches are filthy). Minimum bid is around $350, with no reserve, or you can choose to "buy now" for $1500+/- It's got to be a scam. The only thing that muddies the water is the 99% positive reviews and feedback. Can a seller fake reviews on Ebosa? I don't think they can do that on Ebay. Check it out. What's your opinion?

The whole point of this forum is to share knowledge. Opinions are great, but they are just that, and they don't really help anyone because everyones' are different. What every noob and not-so-noob wants to know is how do other versions of the sub compare with whatever they already have or are thinking of purchasing. The only practical way this can be done is for people who own any given version(s) to list the flaws in as much detail as possible, and post pictures from different angles if they can. The types of flaws on modern subs are well known. Those versions worth listing usually have flaws that fall into three, four or more of these categories: -solid bracelet -lack of efinement of bracelet and bad end link interface with case -For gold: off-color, lack of durability and end link plating vs. solid gold appearance -bezel turns too easily, often unintentionally, or has only 60 vs. 120 clicks and/or non-genuine sound -color of bezel and dial (mostly a problem with blue tt subs and LVs??) -crooked or misaligned markers -sloppy markers -crystal doesn't sit high enough above bevel (crystal height can make a big difference in appearance and if correct, can help offset the lack of depth from inadequate rehaut) -grossly inadequate rehaut depth (an annoyingly prevalent problem with modern subs) -poor date magnification and/or cyclopse alignment (very common) -incorrect date wheel color and font -pathetic luminosity (often inadequate on hands but so-so or decent on hour markers) -incorrect pearl (often wrong color, shape or depth) -degree of crispness, color and boldness of printing on bezel insert and dial -case thickness -wrong crown guard shape and size -wrong crown size -visibility of Rolex crown at 6:00 (often too obvious) -incorrect markings or other special details There will still be different opinions as to how correct any of these aspects are for any given version, and some people will get a bad version of an otherwise good rep. which can skew things. But a pattern will emerge and people will be better able to figure out which flaws they can most accept. For me, I go crazy trying to tell how deep a reahut is from dealer's pictures, and it's very difficult to compare amongst dealers. For example, I know the TW classic ss sub gets it mostly right, but at what cost (in new flaws) versus my ss sub with shallow rehaut but few other major flaws? I think Craytonic got off to a good start in this regard. Maybe the most important flaw of this approach is that some of us are better-equipped to evaluate our own reps because we own or owned gens, and some people only think they know all of the gen features. So, it would help to be able to qualify each reviewer's source of gen knowledge.

Very nice. Whose LV is this you modded, and where did you get the black bezel insert? Besides strap, what else did you modify?

Ya. Rehaut depth is obvious. Wish they would fix that.....

The left one IS the gen. Under more natural lighting, the differences in dial color would be apparent.

You're right; the left is a gen.

OUch! i HAVE 4 reps from RWG dealers, all of them subs, and so far so good (jinx). I've developed a tolerance for certain imperfections and inaccuracies, but this is after collecting the 4 in a pursuit of better reps and then accepting that I have found the best I am going to find. After reading your post, we'll see what time has in store for my 4. My 2 uncannily accurate and excellent $40 street cartier reps worked great for several months until I dropped them (cheap crystal in both, plus hand fell off in one of them), and I had 2 $8.00 movado reps that looked good and ran for years. It's luck of the draw +expectations, I guess.

There are some tt subs out there that are mighty beautiful and very close to the real deal. Several dealers have blue dial tts that are no harder to distinguish from the real watch than any other sub replica. I have two tt sub reps, and there's nothing about the gold that will give them away to the casual admirer, even on a close look. If you really inspect it thoroughly and know what you are looking for, it still isnt' the gold that's going to give it away first; it's the depth of the dial ring (rehaut) and possibly the blue tone of the dial itself. Those (to me) stand out moreso than the fact the end link is plated and not solid gold, which is the most widely cited flaw. But the color of the gold is good and will not give it away at all. If you like the tt sub, I'd encourage you to get it because it is beautiful.

I think it's beautiful. Who'd you get it from? Also, does it have any major flaws other than the usual fake looking pearl and plated end links?