panerai153

I would never send one back to the dealer for service. I would expect that the "Swiss Trained Technicians" are the same teenage girls who assembled the watches in the first place . Their service probably consists of unscrewing the back, spraying it with WD-40 and them possibly a dunk in some light weight oil, turn it over and let it drain, screw the back on and send it back to you, if they do anything at all.

Phonic cases are like $1400. If you have the dough, go for it but i wouldnt bother unless you are looking to fit a gen movement. If you are using ETA then i would go with the MBW case and dial, with PT movement and datewheel.

dizz

i would compare using a phong case with 2846-2 movement to putting a VW beetle engine in a Porsche 911 . You an do it, but what do you have when you get finished. Some of the more experienced modders on the forum have stated in previous posts, that if you are going to do serious modding, you need to establish some sort of cost/value ratio to determine how far you can go. As and example, a fairly decent white letter Rolex 1680 can be had for around 4500.00 USD, give or take a few hundred. A white SD 1665 goes up a fair amount, to 9-11k. Possibly you may find one cheaper, but not usual. So if you use a cost/value ratio of say 20%,, in other words, I'm not going to spend more than 20% of the average cost of a genuine to build a franken, you could afford to spend around 900.00 USD on the 1680 and around 2k on the 1665. Most folks were using a figure from 10-20 % which I would consider pretty logical. Although at 10%, you aren't going to be able to do too much to the 1680. That's why no one around here is slapping a genuine 3135 movement in their WM9/BK 16610 Submariners. The watch alone is around 600-700 USD (when you can find one) and a movement is probably going to cost you at least 1500.00, so when you add a genuine bezel/insert, hands,crown /tube, you are over the price of a good used genuine, which can be had for around 3-3.5k. Doesn't make much sense to build a franken or super franken that is more than the genuine watch.

So basically, the more expensive and rare the genuine, the more you can afford to spend building a super franken.

i find that interesting to say the least

I believe it was rolexfinder. I understand he lives in Bankok and has access to the MBW watches there. I may be totally wrong, but it rings a bell. That may have been a one time deal as well, it's been a while back, and I remember reading the posts that there was a source for the MBW watches.

the dials are awesome! better than Yukis even and nowhere near yukis prices

You might be able to find a used one here on the forum. Quite a few folks here have upgraded to genuine dials and or better dials and the old MBw dials are sitting in their parts box. I should have a DRSD MBW dial in a few weeks as i'm converting my 1665 to a genuine movement and a better dial. Put a "want to buy" in the Tools,parts forum and see what comes up. Also someone here was getting a few MBW 1680,s and 1665's a few months back. i believe they were going to China and were going to bring some back for members who preordered. I can't remember who it was, but some of the other members might be able to give you more information.

Is a case from jewelry and watch that much closer to gen or can I put a little work into

a yuki case? blink:

What are you planning project wise? Super franken with genuine 1570 movement?

What sort of prices are you looking at for these? Are they making a good SD rep as well? We really need a well made, accurate SD to replace the WM9 project watch which is slowly fading into the sunset

Deals can be had. My AD pretty much gives me a 15% discount on Rolex (If I were so inclined). On the other hand there is another snobby dealer in town he says "the price is the price, and they are not allowed to discount" (Bull5hit).....

If you really want a Gen, from an AD, shop the grey market (Jomashop.com) and offer ~$100~$200 over grey market prices. If they are a55holes, tell them fine, you will deal with the 'warranty' issues and buy 'grey'. The only advantage to the AD is the paperwork and 'while it is in warranty' service.

Back to the article. I can see them opening Boutiques-- in addition to AD's, but I can not see them pulling out of the likes of Tourneau, Hyde Park, etc. Rememeber, many watch impulse buys, especially by men, are while their wife/girlfriend/mistress are shopping jewelry etc. Rolex would LOOSE money. Plus, scorned AD's would blast them, and sell the hell out of competing brands.

That's exactly what I mean. The dealers who are cut off would become Rolex's biggest enemies. As you said lots of watch buys are impulse, and I can guarrantee, the impulse goes away if you have to drive to the closest large City to buy. No problem if you live in Dallas,Houston, NYC, Chicago, LA, Etc. but if the closest city is 100 miles away, and it's 200k population, you are out of luck.

Interesting how different AD's handle discounts. Years ago, I bought several Rolexes from Hausman's Jewelers in New Orleans. They had a pretty strict policy on discounts, basically no discounts, BUT if you were trading a watch, any watch, they would really deal! They would give you 1000.00 USD for a Seiko, as a trade on a new Submariner . Actually it was more like 100.00 USD for a trade-in , because a new Submariner was only 500.00 USD. The Seiko was probably worth 30 bucks. that was their way of getting around the Rolex no discount policy .

If I were starting a project like this I would find a MBW watch /case ,preferably and older one. Then all you need to do is find a 2846-2 movement, Silver flat 3 datewheel, a genuine or better insert /pearl. genuine crown and if not a genuine superdome T-39, a Clark superdome . Put that all together and you are going to have a really, really nice 1665 SD. I have nothing against the PT vintage watches, but for a modding platform, the MBW will present fewer problems down the road when you try to start fitting genuine and good aftermarket parts.

Just the other day, a friend told me he heard of a Rolex only store opening up near me in Orlando, in the Mall Of Millenia. It makes me wonder why they did not go this route years ago. Sure, it will be a big investment on their part in the beginning to set up and run their own shops, but they WILL pass that cost to the customer, and the customer will pay it because after all, its Rolex. In the long run, it will give them better control of their products and ensure to everyone once and for all "the only way to ensure you get a real Rolex, is to buy it from us". Nothing more exclusive than that.

Cheers

That is exactly why it has been 25 years since I purchased a new rolex from an AD. they won't deal, and if they end up with Rolex boutiques as the only source for new Rolex watches, they sure as hell won't deal. I would bet however that if that is the business model they plan to follow, Rolex sales will plummet. Lots of watches are sold by jewelry stoeres that are long time Rolex dealers. take that away, and you lose your sales outlets in every small to medium size city in the USA.. I feel sure most folks wil not travel 600-1000 miles to purchase a watch from a Rolex store, when they can buy something else at their local jeweler right down the street. May make the market for used Rolex stronger, as that will be the only way lots of folks have access to Rolex watches.

So you can see where this is going. A fair number of people here have moved beyond the issue of reps or gens. If you have been playing with watches (rep and gen) for years many tend to migrate to frankens. And when you look on your wrist you are not seeing the watch. You are seeing the project that took you quite some time and effort to assemble. Kind of the opposite of instant gratification.

You are absolutely correct. I only have one rep that is still "Out of the box: i tried to sell it, and my wife told me that it was one of the few she really liked!! All my other reps are pretty much modded to at least the "Franken" stage. I probably wear my reps about 75% of the time, genuine the rest. it all depends on what I'm doing. Some activities don't lend themselves to reps. such as Scuba diving, I wear my genuine Ocean7 ploprof or my MKII Stingray, when I wear a Tuxedo, I wear my IWC Calatrava, outside of those activities, It pretty much deppends on what my watch mood is for that day! It is very gratifying to look down at your watch and realize that there is a "Story" behind that particular piece, You seldom get that same feeling with a genuine. Once the thrill of "new" wears off, the genuines are pretty much "Just another watch" ., that is unless it has some special sentimental attachment. First nice watch, gift from your father, wedding present from your spouse, all of these will give the genuine a "Story" as well.

To sum it up, I see a genuine as a watch. I see a rep as a potential project ,that with the right parts, the right help, it will be much better than when I purchased it.

In my vintage watches, both rep and genuine, it is a total non-issue. they are all dead, or at least dying. in fact to me lume on a repped vintage., like a 1680 or 1665 is a sure "tell" that something isn't right, however on a modern watch like my WM9/BK 16610. lack of good lume would also be a "tell". So It depends on the watch and what your watche's genuine counterpart looks like in the dark.

The dial looks correct & I would keep the existing hands (since, presumably, they are gens & fit the 157x movement). I would also figure a movement overhaul into your plans. I just hope you get what you paid for. The fact that the watch is missing the dial makes me suspicious.

Very unusual. usually you see the dial,hands and case sans movement. I sure hope you aren't buying a watch that was flooded, and/or has a trashed movement. If I were you, I would get it to a local watchmaker who works on Rolex and let him have a real quick look at it before your return option runs out. If it's the least bit suspicious, send it back.

Freddy,

I would bet that even if by some chance Rolex instituted a reintroduction of vintage watches, they would be bigger or changed in some way that new parts wouldn't be interchangable with the older watches.Only Rolex Experts and WIS are going to notice a change of .5-1.0 mm. I seriously doubt whether doing something like this would be economically feasible, as the market would probably be fairly limited. This is all just sheer speculation on my part, aas i have absolutely no facts or marketing info to back it up.

Thanks for the heads up regarding the messages attached to the auction. I personally know one particular dealer who outright lied in a message to this senior seller. I think it's an outright disgrace, and in my opinion is no different than knocking down an old lady and stealing her purse. This certainly has made me lose any respect I had for this dealer. Thanks again for posting the link.

JJ

I actually saw the link on the Rolex Forum, went to Ebay and read the auction. I thought it was pretty interesting, as it was and older gentleman who was the original owner, and basically treated the watch as all of us who bought Rolex watches back in the 50's and 60's did. It was a watch,period! Bought to be worn every day under every conceivable condition. only after I went back and started reading the comments did my anger boil over. I thought some of those pleas to end the auction were out and out despicable attempts by dealers, who all DAMN well knew what the watch was worth, to cheat and old guy out of a valuable watch. But you didn't see any of them offering to buy at 60-70k, they were all trying to steal the watch. It is pretty evident that he caught on real fast, because some of his comments were pretty terse.

It will be interesting to see how this one plays out. I would bet the last few minutes of this auction are going to be real interesting.

Well I saw it, and I thought its my kind of deal. Thats to say incomplete and cheap

Seems to be a Datejust maybe, what looks like cal.1570 movement.

Hands seem blackened at the lume area, this pic is the listing pic :

So now I ll need some luck finding a nice datejust dial for a 1570, yep I do know how to pick 'em.

I asked for a condition report, that came back as working but un tested.

I love a challange, What do you think ?

If you got it dirt cheap and the 1570 doesn't require and expensive overhaul, you may be OK. As for dials, there are tons of datejust dials floating around. They are on Ebay, and the vintage rolex market almost always has some for sale. I'm sure these are all dials that are from "cannabalized" watches that are broken up mainly for the movement.

Good luck with your project

The seller is in Texas,Mulholland is in Florida.He probably hoped a direct flight to GBI in Houston, went out and looked over the watch himself! I believe I would if I was paying north of 60k for a watch.

i wouldn't be surprised if Steve kept this one around for a while in his private collection. Even the high end stuff is stil a little depressed,so holding on to it for a while until the economy improves may be his plan, but if The Euro implodes like it's looking, i wouldn't want to be holding a lot of high dollar stuff. Remember what happened to the exotic car market back in the 1990's when the Japanese economy crashed. A lot of folks got left holding the bag to the tune of millions of dollars when the (ex) super wealthy buyers quit bidding!

Saw this post over on another genuine forum, clicked on the auction, and read the story. It's really intersting, and a stunning example of and early big crown Submariner. The watch is a one owner, being sold by and elderly gentleman (in his 90's) who bought it at a Navy Exchange in the South Pacific in 1958.

Read the story, look at the photos, but by all means drop down and read ALL the plantive appeals to end the auction early. Just shows you what stories some of the "Collectors" can concoct.It's pretty obvious just from looking at the starting price (9.95 USD) and the shipping (4.95 USPS Priority in a flat rate box!) that this old gentleman had no earthly idea what he has.

Here is the Link Vintage Submariner Dive Watch

Sad news indeed.

The bright spot is that, for years, I have heard that most of the (seemingly) anti-customer policies employed by the US arm of Rolex over the past 20 years were due to Brill. If that is true, perhaps his replacement will loosen things up a bit.

Always sad when anyone passes.

As to the customer relations, I don't think we will ever go back to the days like the 1980's that you described in another post, where you could walk into and AD and purchase parts, bracelets. etc. over the counter. But it would be nice to have leadership that treats customers as valuable assets, rather than like they were coming in to rob the store! Another thing that needs to be addressed is the problem that quite a lot of watchmakers are having maintaining a parts account. I'm all for watchmakers having continuing education requirements to keep up their skills,especially on new watches coming out. But it seems as though Rolex NA's taking a rather Draconian approach to the situation. Do they really think a guy like Bob Ridley needs to go sit in a class for hours and days being taught by an instructor from the "mother ship" . Especially since watchmakers like Bob have probably forgotten more about vintage Rolex watches than this instructor will ever know.

Ubi,you are the MAN!! Great build. Another one to be proud of.

you have put together a really beautiful watch. :thumbsupsmileyanim: I hope mine comes out looking as good!

Listen to the ones here who have gone through all this before you. GET THEM SERVICED. First off, these are not genuine watches. Rep factories have zero quality control, no matter what the dealers tell you. the folks building the watches are not watchmakers, they are parts assemblers. If a little dirt gets in the case, they drop a part on the floor, it goes straight in the watch. They aren't going to take the time to disassemble a movement and clean and oil it properly. maybe if you get a fresh ETA it will be OK, but maybe not, as thye probably buy bulk movements, not the individually sealed ones. If it's runnng a slow beat 2846-2, I can guarantee it's as dry as desert sand.Those movements are either removed from old watches, ot they were bought NOS and have been sitting on a shelf somewhere for 20 years.

As persist said, factor in the cost of a service when you buy. otherwise, buy cheap genuine watches which are more likely to arrive serviced. Treat your watch just as you would any other piece of precision machinery. When you buy a car, you have the oil changed regularly don't you? I would expect that if you ran your car with the same oil that came in the engine new, and you never checked the level, at some point in time, you would be on the side of the road with a dead engine. Watches are the same. they need to be clean, dry (no water) and lubricated to operate properly. Assume the rep you purchase is one out of three, probably dry, but also likely to be dirty and not lubricated.

I agree I don't know of a single rep that wouldn't benefit fom some modding, some more than others. However if I were to pick a best "out of the box" Rep, it would have to be the WM9/BK version 1,2 or 3 16610 Submariner. they aren't perfect, but they are really,really good.

So is it safe to say that since my "MBW" 1665 starts with a 6193, it's not a true MBW?

It could still be an MBW, it's probably not one of the old model MBW's from back around 2005-06. The older models take genuine parts.From what i'm reading some of the newer ones don't accept genuine parts such as dials, crystals, without modifications.

Man, I would take a couple of those in a heartbeat. like the man said, in some of the scans, the rep looked more genuine than the genuine!! Someone needs to see where that guy got the fake from. i would bet he bought it at a watch show, or Ebay. You really need to have them in good light and a pretty good bit of magnification to tell them apart. By itself, not many folks around could tell it was a rep.

That has come up time and again over on the genuine Rolex forums. one has to ask why one particular person can have a 40 year old watch serviced and the next guy comes along with one that is very similar in age and condition and they tell him ,"Sorry, we don't service those older Rolex watches" As Freddy says, it's probably not what you know, but who you know that gets you in the door.

I do know from experience, having had several Rolex watches serviced by RSC Dallas, you never get your old parts back.Some of the parts that were replaced were in pretty crummy shape, but I've had hands, a dial and several bezel inserts replaced as well as a crystal exchange every time. The crystals were throw away, but they took off parts that to me were perfectly usable and in reasonably good condition. I will say in comparison, we are buying parts like bezel inserts and crowns that are in worse condition than ones that were changed on my watches at service. Of course that reflects the fact that most of us can't get new service dials,hands, inserts, etc., as there isn't any source for them. It would be wonderful if we could walk into an AD or a RSC and buy a new insert, a set of hands, bracelet endlinks, etc., but it ain't going to happen! And the guys who have over the years cultivated some fairly reliable sources for parts aren't going to take a chance on getting cut off, by telling everyone where they can get a brand new 1680 service dial. and I don't blame them a bit.