Devedander

Yeah... if it's one of those little booths in the mall NO FRIGGIN WAY... if it's an actual store that sells watches, I have had good luck with things in the past like simple resizing and battery changing... but I really wouldn't trust them beyond what you can do yourself with a $20 basic toolset...

Sorry to hear this... I am very afraid of any kind of mall store service.

Ok let's just back up a bit here, so far 2 Mods have come out and said they agree with puggy, I have been giving it a little bit of a wide berth but 'What the heck" yeah I agree it is a great thread and also encourage all to take a stand about this.

That said please don't expect the Admin to enforce any kind of ruling here, it is up to you the consumers to ring in change as Alan just stated if you are not happy vote with your wallet there is enough buying power here to change the way dealers think.

Ken

Fair enough... I probably should have said something more along the lines of "it's in the admins realm of abilities to pass decission on what constitutes a "trusted" dealer as are decision concering how everything else runs on the forums."

Absolutely the same pic... all else asside the dot just before 51 on the dial is exactly the same...

Maybe we should take a hard look at the Marketing of said product and the Privilege of selling on this Forum?

Exactly... a few boycotters or some harsh words... not gonna go far... but as I said I think it was pretty well covered that we are indeed important and valuable to dealers (why else would they pay to be on this forum?) as a forum and as a forum it is up to the admins to decide what is acceptable of a "trusted" dealer... does he simply have to pay dues? Does he have to meet some criteria?

As it is right now as far as I can tell, trusted dealers must pay dues and not run off with your money... outside that, there seems to be a LOT of wiggle room...

Exactly... you try selling some oregano as weed or try selling some ground up tylenol as cocaine and see how far "whatever, it's an illegal business" gets you then...

I absolutely agree Pug, and I am glad someone has said it who is not in a position to be noob bashed or some other rediculous method of slander that oddly seems unpleasantly common on forums the world over...

I see lots of rationalizations as to how bad other markets are, how we really know what they are saying, how it doesn't even really matter...

I don't agree with any of that...

It's all a slippery slope that ends up in Ebay sales marketing reps as gens and =sites that sell 100% accurate 31 jewel Italian reps at $2000 a pop.

I also agree we are here to protect ourselves and keep this game honest (honor amongst thieves). If we don't do that, we are what replica center says we are (and disconcertingly close to what replicacenter is).

What does it matter as long as the hands go round? It matters... it matters to the tune of hundreds of dollars... if it doesn't really matter, how about our dealers price all their watches at the lowest common denomiator, the asian 21j... how does that strike? After all it doesn't matter, and you can't honestly charge more for things that don't matter right? That's a scam right? That's not what we support right?

We all know all the details? Really? We don't have threads by experienced, veteran members asking questions about these issues? Missleading isn't missleading if it's possible to research the truth behind it? I am sorry that doesn't hold water and nitrous passes the laugh test better...

Hell if we have to send one to The Zigmeister to find out the truth, that says something right there.

I agree there is a line to be crossed between marketing (ultimate, best, noobmariner) and straight up lying (Lemania, Sythetic Saphire, Solid Gold). Someone brought up infomercials and creative advertsising... they always have fine print or disclaimers... some dealers at least have the disclaimer at the bottom of the page that "water resistant" doesn't really mean squat and is not warranted in any way. If dealers wanted to put asterisks next to ETA, Saphire, Gold and at the bottom of the page follow up with "well not really" then at least I could give them that.

Let's not forget we are not the only ones that shop those pages... and before anyone says we only need to protect ourselves take a gander at the ebay scam section and explain to me exactly which members of which forum we are protecting there...

It's worse elsewhere? You could be more ripped off? Ok... tell you what, I will rape you in the a** and then tell you about how at least I gave you a reach around, but in some places you don't even get that. We friends? I don't think so. Other places are not our "Trusted Dealers" and so not in any way what we are talking about. If all I have to do to be acceptable is find someone worse than I am, then I am putting way too much effort into life.

No honor amongst thieves? Anyone who says that please put your hand up high when you offer a watch in the member sale section... then count how many seconds it takes for someone hot little finger to hit "Chargeback" in their paypal account.

Can we make a difference? Can we influence our dealers being such a small portion of the market? I don't know. But there is an old saying about being part of the problem and part of the solution and while I don't think for second my vote will swing a presidential ellection, you sure don't see me sitting on my butt come voting night.

And think about it long and hard... our dealers put an awful lot of effort and time into the forum and forum members all things considered for a group that doesn't make a difference... in sheer numbers I can believe we don't account for much more than a drop in the bucket, but in terms of higher end rep sale (which, just like in the gen world is where more profit is) I think we are a decently loud voice...

I seem to recall stories of Paul swearing off rep forums and saying he didn't need em... then somehow comming back... if the forums decide part of being a "trusted" dealer means that people can "trust" what you say to be the truth, then I think indeed we might well have leverage.

Pug I thank you for saying what needs to be said and I hope it will make some difference. I personally have been pretty lucky overall and gotten mostly watches that are really what I thoght they would be (and I mean thought without having to research a buttload to decipher a term that already has an established meaning as something else) but the more weird terms get thrown around the less comfortable I feel and the more devalued I see places like rep forums being...

Remember... slippery sloaps get steep fast... the best way is to not set foot on one in the first place...

The movements are different... the cheaper one I believe is more or less a 21j asian running at 28k...

I'd love to see Paula wearing nothing but a ladies Datejust...drunken [censored]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gThJYRkz8tw

I woulda took up on that deal also... I am >< close to jumping on that sub anyway... randy lemme know if you decide not to, I would be happy to do so..

I am hoping that this is indeed the "copy" ETA movements some have been wanting with the wake of ETA not selling anymore in the future...

Yeah, but it does look a little closer to a real ETA than the on in the beginamriner... at least to my rookie eye...

Sent off an email to see if River can specify beat rate...

Here I was hoping to be told about all kinds of problems I didn't see that makes it a no go... and here you guys take away any possible I excuse I have not to spend more money! AGGHHHH!

The LV has always been tempting but having a noobmariner it seemed silly to invest more into another sub... but Rivers new entry into the LV category shipps at $99 and has an Asian 25j ETA copy that seems interesting to me... what's the verdict on this from the more savy members?

I thought Simon was wearing a Breitling at first too but it didn't look like one by the end... subdials looked odd and was awful small for most breitling chronos...

It did [censored] me off no end how he left the strap out though... mentioned it and my buddy gave me crap about noticing something so stupid...

Oh wow... that is super sh*tty... sorry you had to learn that the hard way...

Black diamonds is going to be a special order for sure... be ready to pay out the nose for that if it's even possible...

If you ever need to resize your strap and you're new to this whole thing, take it to a shop. It's one of the most stubborn bitches I've ever worked on. Damn, it's tough. I broke one pin wrenching it out with pliers, when the tools I used would go no further. Seriously, pay someone.

Absolutely agree... Both my PO and my SMP have given me a helluva time resizing... the PO actually put a nice hole in my hand where I pulled on it with a pin half out, it slipped and drove the dull, oily, dirty pin a good half inch in the inside of my index knuckle... hit bone, and pulled out with a very sickening meaty "plup" to leave me with a sore hand for days and two broken pins...

2. No seller price coersion, collusion, or fraud

And what I am trying to say is that approach will only work if one of the following happens:

1. They all collude to raise prices

2. They are testing the market to see if other dealers will also respond with price increases

2. Current supply exceeds demand (and i am afraid that in certain cases that is what is happening)

3. They each independantly determine that they their current profit margins are not acceptable enough for them to stay in this business. If they raise thier prices and the price increases do not stick, the natural course would than be to exit the business.

And to keep it short and sweet those are what I am addressing. Everything else was some tangential spinoff to explain points that each of us think the other is addressing but they probably aren't

Again short and sweet: I don't think our dealers are ripping us off, but in business it's a fatal mistake to let down your guard. No one who is doing honest business has anything to fear from being questioned. Those who are not, well....

Things like cartelling and quangoes happen all the time in free and open markets. That's the problem with free markets and open markets. It's why we simply don't use them in the western world, contrary to what Americans seem to understand.

What we have are highly regulated markets. We need them to keep capitalist from succumbing to the lower prices of their neighbours, so we impose subsidies and duties, carrot and stick, in the hope that it keeps the faith in our economic strength alive.

There's nothing overly wrong with our current capitalist system, but to call it either open or free is a fallacy.

... just my 2.6c US

Absolutely correct! When I speak of open market business again I probably use the wrong term, I mean open markets as in our regulated but open market places, not truly "free" markets. And you will see earlier I reference the fact that we don't have the luxury of a regulated market here, so we must be vigilant in protecting our own interests as we don't have a governing body to do it for us.

I would love to see this start a trend of high quality Asian 21j reps... most of the basic watches I would be more than happy to have in Asian 21j...

Also curious to see where the Asian ETA lable comes from on this as it doesn't appear to be ETA...

hmmm.. very tempting.......

I do believe that the Co-axial movement in the genuine Planet Oceans actually makes the movement a bit more juddery than a normal 28k movement? I wonder then if the asian movement will be more like this? If its reliable it could be a fantastic bargain!!!!

Doubt it... it's listed at 28k so should be same smoothness as ETA... damn... the spoils to those who wait

My mistake on price vs cost... used the words incorrectly. Hopefully the point can still be figured out, I am first to admit that what sounds good in my head comes out wrong on screen sometimes. Stupid punctuation and inflection

As for the J12... Well then our dealers are straight out lying to us already. I was told that the J12 is high priced for a quartz watch because (amongst other reasons) ceramic carries a high level of breakage and problems and since loss is high on production the price is high at our end.

I am curious who told you it was a higher quality product... it's a quartz watch... something generally not desired in this hobbie it would seem.

Following your example, if you raise your price to compensate for your loss, and have competition who sells the same product for the same price with the same service levels than you do, and that person does not raise his price, you will not sell a lot of watches, until he starts to run low on product. Perhaps that person does a better job with security, or has better breakage rates, or whatever... The game here is to control your expenses and your losses to the extent you can. If your costs are higher than yoru competiton for whatever reason, and you cannot compete on price for a like product, you are doomed. That is the nature of the market.

All else being equal and fair, yes that's how it should work. But things are rarely equal and fair and thus why we need to watch out for things like price fixing etc... that's why we have laws to prevent price fixing and unfair market control... again we do not have these in our little world. So you must think one step ahead, every dealer knows if he raises his prices and others don't, it hurts him, but if all dealers know this and realize the only way to increase profits is to all do it at the same time, then they have but to find a way to do so while keeping face.

So how do you keep it fair and the way it SHOULD be in the absence of laws to do so? Be vigilante about what can be said while keeping face...

This is a high risk business. If, as a producer, you cannot achieve a profit (reward) that justifies your risk, you do not get in the busines.

I agree completely. But if you will notice, no one claimed prices were going up do to need to compensate for risk... the only thing mentioned I noted was that prices from the factories were going up. Something which street vendors do not reflect so brings into question.

But the suppliers in ShenZhen do not have access to the same markets our dealers do. That lack of access and distribution capability restricts the demand.. they effectively act as wholesalers. Refer to my previous post.

No they don't, but it has nothing to do with the point being made becuase our dealers do have access to the wholesalers in ShenZhen and the factories they get their watches from. Are you really saying you think there are NOT more than enough watches to cover the market demand available to our dealers?

And again think about it carefully, I think you have it backwards in your head, as in almost any market having a LARGER market means you get REDUCED prices, not the otherway around. Otherwise the mom and pop corner store would not be so expensive compared to walmart.

Your argument is based on missuse of the supply/demand curve... if I only have a market of 10 people and thus sell 10 items a month I must make a high profit to stay afloat. If I suddently get a market of 100 people and thus can sell 100 products per month I can significantly reduce profit margins and still make money and even better I should be getting a better deal on my product from my supplier. Larger market SHOULD = lower prices, not the other way around.

And the real comparison is not even to guys in ShenZhen but rather to the street vendors in my own city in China which is very far from ShenZhen... if these guys in street booths can get these watches at $x in the small quantities they deal, actually stock then, not have the benefit of dropshipping and have to incur the expenses invovled with brick and mortar (well tend and table) type operation, our dealers (who by your own argument have a larger market share) shoudl have no problem getting the same prices. Thus the questionable nature of claiming higher from factory prices... if factories were bumping prices, wouldn't the small volume street vendor be showing the same results?

I think you are readind more or other points into what I say than what I am intending to say. What I am trying to say is: All things considered I don't understand how our dealers can claim increasing costs from the factory as a cause of increased price to consumer when others in the same business, drawing on the same resources in smaller volume do not seem to suffer from this.

"Yes, of course you broke the himmelerblog hammer, I forgot to mention that small tidbit when I responded to you, but then again, all of us have done the same mistake, welcome to the club..."

I hate it when I break my himmelerblog hammer, just the thought of it makes me break out in a cold sweat. One of these days I will learn, but until then me and himmelerblog are enemies.

Ouch... sorry to hear that...

Good God man! Change that title! Sent he pulse jumping for a second there...

Sucks that you have to do this but hopefully it will all end up for the better. Good luck getting it all taken care of smoothly!