Devedander

Perhaps I got it wrong, but I see this as being a contradictory comment. On one hand, you are legitimizing marketplace forces and the use of supply and demand as a method to determine pricing, on the other, you appear to be suggesting that dealers out of China cannot justify pricing on this baisis. Doesn't make sense to me, but again, maybe I got it wrong.

No... they can totally justify their cost on varying marketplace forces... assuming those forces are legitimately there. However you can't just claim rising cost if it doesn't seem justifiable. The statement you quoted wasn't clearly worded... I meant that in this particular case I don't think our dealers can legitimately claim some of the rising expenses that have been suggested... not that they aren't allowed to claim rising expenses in the marketplace overall.

In a free and open market, commodity Pricing is ALWAYS determined by marketplace forces, i.e. supply and demand. Dealers charge what they do because they can. They compete with other dealers. If their prices rise too much, you will take your business elsewhere.

This is true to an extent... but remember we are not in a regulated market... price fixing, gauging and other such practices are something we have to watch out for, indeed it's exactly why these types of forums exist. $1000 submariner sites are one of the vestiges of bad business in an unregulated market. If dealers raise their prices across the board, where exactly will you take your business? If one gas station raises it's prices by $5 a gallon and others decide to follow suit where exactly will you go? There are laws in place to make sure this doesn't happen in normal open market business, we have no such luxuries in our microcosm market so you can't apply all open market rules and theories here, it's more of a wild west sort of thing.

There are the sites that send you nothing at all, which are a different breed all together, but the ones that are simply overpriced... remember there isn't all that much besides price that seperates our dealers from those sites in some cases... it wouldn't take much to make that gap somewhat insignificant....

If dealers cannot compete with other dealers on the basis of price (adjusted for other factors such as service, willingness to customized, etc...) they either lower their price or go out of business. The other factors alluded to in your post (risk, expense, etc...) are profitability factors, but they are not relevant to the price of the product in the market. As far as pricing is concerned. All that matters is competition, service, and supply vs. demand dynamics

I don't see how you can claim risk and expense are not factors in market price... these are absolute factors... if someone can grab my case of watches and run off with it, or grab a watch or two and run off, I must factor that into my expenses and compensate with my profit margin. A drop shipper has no such risk and thus no need to compensate for this.

And look at the chanel j12, the higher quality one that incurs more risk and expense to create due to the dangerous final firing process, commands a much higher price... why? to cover expenses and risks.

Look below at later in your post where you directly relate risk to reward... reward comes from profit margins...

So again, how can you say risk and expense are not related to price in market?

As for the indigenous chinese watch dealer selling his product for 1/2 of what our dealers sell it for, he/she operates at a marked disadvantage vis-a-vis our dealers, in that he does not have access to the global market place. That lack of distribution capability restricts the marketplaces they can participate in, and by extenson, their potential clients. The consequence of more product and less market is higher supply and lower demand which equates to lower price. That is the nature of a wholesale business. By contrast our dealers have access to wider range of consumers. Less product, more market, lower supply, higher demand, higher prices.

First off this would be valid if the supply of watches didn't MASSIVELY bypass the demand... in ShenZhen there is litterally a city of watches waiting to be sold... if anything it's the opposite, our dealers wider market should give them the befeit of greater sales and volume discount. You don't see Walmart charging more than everyone else because they have a lot of stores and a lot of customers do you?

As for their profit margins, I have already stated I think we get services for our $$$ as it is, however I think we all need to be vigilant about watching out for ourselves. It's not a very long slippery slope between our dealers and "scam" sites. We have an advantage in this market that not many people do in other markets ie we know basically what the wholesale prices are so we can gauge what the markup is.

Again it's not the desire to make more money that I have a problem with, it's how trasnparent that desire is... if dealers say prices are rising on their end from the factories... yet we don't see this at the street market vendor level (I keep in contact with my family in China who isn't into actually buying and sending me these watches but can let me know how things look there - planning whether I need to go to ShenZhen or can shop from my local city on my next visit) there is something fishy... again our dealers must outsell most of these street vendors (you mentioned some very good reasons why above) and if they can't get better prices than the street vendors should at least not be doing worse.

Why does it matter? It's back to the leg pissing/raining thing... if you tell me something that's not true you are pissing on my leg and then we have problems. It's the same reason we protect each other from scam sites... it's the point where it turns from business to taking advantage of people.

Finally an editorial comment. Considering the risks, costs, and value provided, I really do not consider a 100% price market to be all that unreasonable, at least not for the products we buy. As has been said before, this is not Walmart. Our dealers risk alot.. as consumers it is unlikely we will ever run afoul of the law for buying a replica watch... worst case, we lose the watch and/or our purchase price... but the dealers risk is far greater. If High risk did not = high reward, who would be in this business?

I don't think it's unreasonable etiher, but it certainly shouldn't be shrugged off as nothing or looked at as a starting point to add on to to achieve fair profit... nothign wrong with rewarding risk. Just keep an eye on how slippery the slope gets... I have seen it time and again in many situations (I am not talking about here with watches, but in general with many things in life) where people essentially credit the same risks over and over to justify increasing reward. ie no new risk, but increased reward - a very simplified example would be "our dealers have to deal with customs losses so they must factor that into their profit." Then next year prices go up, customs losses stay the same but higher prices are attributed to customs losses... someone comes along and states that there is nothing wrong with prices going up as our dealers have to deal with customs losses that street vendors don't... repeat at al.

joe I am assuming you splied in parrallel as if you had gone in series your winders would all go half as fast as they should...

But in parallel you are drawing twice the amperage through the board... that's the equivalent of putting 5 transfer gears on a 7750... it will be interesting if that all holds up in there under the load...

Ouch... that sticks out pretty bad

I get them confused yet... people need to stick with PT and Angus... that keeps thing easier...

Yeah - I never said to accept blindly everything they offer, that's why I buy from different Dealers...

Bought a IWC Jones from River for 79,- USD shipped (Sapphire and the "old" movement with real cnc-crafted bridges - not the stick on plates they offer now...) - that's incredible !

Got an Ultimate PO from Silix for 150,- USD instead of 220+ from the other Dealers - compared it side by side with a friends one (who bought it from another Dealer for much more) - exactly the same...

It's good to hear that we are all still thinking for ourselves - I just hope that option remains open to us... it wouldn't be hard for one dealers to impliment a rise in prices that leads the others to follow suite... rising tide raises all ships

Thread jack but did you review the Silix PO? I have been very impressed with Silix products and prices and would love to hear more about his PO...

There's a huge difference in a colour copy of a Japanese gen watch catalogue and TTK's amazing photos.

Yes I didn't make it clear enough but I am speaking of the Josh/Andrew/Silix/Pauls out there. The ones who are a whole different game like TTK and narikaa (the ones who really do stock things in hand and or take their own photos) fall into a different situation, not what I am addressing so much.

And to be clear we are talking about buying watches here where Silix and Joshs pics do fine... it's nice that TTK has awesome photo abilities and we get the see them, but it's only tangential to the product.

If you went to a restaraunt that charged 50% more for the same food as the one down the street but said "we polish or dishes to a super high shine by hand which adds cost that we must pass on" what would you say? I would say, "well fair enough, but if you are adding to your bottom line for a service which doesn't really relate to your product (taste of food/quality of watch) then that's your own busines mistake, not one I am going to pay for." And yes I know many restaraunts charge a buttload for basically plate polishing... and I would think most of us are the kind to see through that... if not we would be shopping at goreplica where you can get overnight shipping and the convenience of COD for a meer $800 markup...

And I don't really think anyone is arguing this as one of the reasons for rising prices anyway... I mean TTK is the only one I know of who does such a spectacular job and I get the feeling he does it becuase he loves photography and has a history in it anyway... I can't believe he coudln't get the standard stock shots the other dealers do for cheap or free whatever the other dealers pay for them...

We can go back and forth about details and possibilities and point out minute differences, but the big picture remains, our dealers make a very comfortable profit margin and it's important to not blindly accept what you are told about a situation... there is a lot that the general membership doens't know but there are somet things we can be reasonably sure of (like the price in ShenZhen or the price in my City etc - if our dealers can't negotiate at least the prices the guy on the street with a booth get's... well then that's an even bigger problem) and I don't think anyone should take it as an insult if what they say is questioned in respectulf and open manner... like I said, the truth will always withstand the laugh test so no one should be offended if their argument is put to the laugh test.

You're right - but those Dealers don't speak English THAT good, don't operate Web-Sites, don't operate several accounts to offer you easy payment services, don't ship your watch half way around the earth don't shoot photos from all angles for you, and mostly they don't have a clue of watch details and so on...

You're right, our Dealers probably DO make more profit - but they also offer more service. You can get a burger at BK - or go into a nice restaurant, your choice.

(I like BK, by the way...)

Reply fair enough but it may surprise you that some of these street dealers speak decent English (again Chinese aren't the ones buying $100+ reps, it's foreigners who make up that market and that's the money market). Sure websites and payment services do cut into expenses, but these guys have to pay rent on the booth and don't have the luxury of drop shipping... I mean if you look at it fair and square things balance out pretty even on the expenses from with the execption of shipping related expenses...

Our dealers don't have to house their own merchandise (I know some do but I am not speaking of those perse) and don't have to worry about being robbed or having their watches snatched up and run off with... they don't have to wrap up their store and carry home their watches every night, then set up again in the morning. They don't get stuck in a little booth 8-12 hours a day who knows how many days a week because their market won't email them on a blackberry (I saw the same guy every day for 2 weeks straight in the same booth - how much is giving up that freedom worth in terms of profit margin?).

Remember it's a two way street, both have issues the others don't have to deal with...

As for shooting photos I think it's been covered most dealers use photos provided by the manufacturers. On the other hand street vendors tend to have lots of glossy mags showing watches and binders of products they have to put together and keep updated... both are probably cheap or free and both take some man hours to maintain... kind of a wash...

As for watch details, yes our dealers are better on that front and that's worth more... but then again we are still getting seagulls and "sythetic" glass saphire so it's a double edged sword there... it's nice to have a dealer who will tell you when the gold is ugly or that this particular watch is not good quality really but remember they didn't even have to stock that piece... no expense to them to offer that avice, and it means when they sell you a segull or mineral glass crystal you have now paid a large overhead to still get an inferior item.

And now we are adding in our own assumed expense/value scale... is it becomming more expensive for these dealers to speak English well? Then how does it account for increased cost? I am not arguing that our dealers offer us values and services we should be paying for above and beyond the street dealers, only looking at why these expenses are going up...

In a strictly business sense it's important to be open minded in terms of hearing or thinking things you might not like to... I mean remember, dealers are not our friends, not our buddies or family members... many of them are nice and some members have made relationships with some dealers, but dealers are businessmen and I always think it's important to keep your mind thinking clearly and logically with business... don't let emotions keep you from calling a spade a spade.

This forum is here for us to protect ourselves and others from being taken advantage of... and it's important to remember that at any point the people we may neded protecting from are the very ones we trust right now... everyone should keep everyone honest in this game...

While our dealers definitely need to make money for their services I do start the question the costs involved in these services...

While I was in China I was hundreds of miles away from ShenZhen... and I was dealing with guys who spend 12 hours a day in a tiny rented booth selling these things... no such luxury as on the side with a day job, these guys were paying their bills with just this and paying rent on their little booth... these guys have no problems taking back broken watches, doing minor repairs etc... and all at prices about what people are reporting in ShenZhen...

If these guys can get the connections to pull this off I have to wonder why it's such an expense for our dealers too... I mean these booth guys have a much lower margin, and still can get these services (replacing broken/defective items) with no trouble...

I fully understand our dealers have other expenses to deal with such as loss due to shipping and such, but when a guy in a booth charges $150 for a watch our dealers charge $300 for and will replace hands/dials/whatever doesn't work within reason it really takes some of the heat out of the argument of expenses...

And before anyone comes out wheeling that I am not there and that if I was a dealer I would know the real details, I am first to admit to that, but I don't think there is a flaw in my logic anywhere that if a guy across China paying rent in a booth in China but not in Shen Zhen, where business is pretty poor for this kind of thing (most Chinese citizens don't buy reps for thesmselves because right across the street they can get a nice dept store watch for SUPER cheap) can make a living doing this and covering breakages and such the same as our dealers then for $100+ profit per piece over these street vendors I can't really believe our dealers aren't still making a decent profit after accounting for their special added expenses.

Charging what the market will bear I think is a completely legitimate argument and I couldn't blame a person for doing so, but for the dealers comming out of China specifically I just don't see that it can be justified this way. If they really are getting such high expenses for the same service the street vendor guy gives for dirt cheap then maybe our dealers need to look into updating their connections... obviously the connections to get this done at low prices exist...

I like our dealers for the most part and feel they are making a fair markup on their wares, but I am never afraid to question the specifics if things seem fishy... I mean if a dealer comes out and say "I am charging more because I can and you will pay it" fair enough. If they come out and say "I want to make more $$$ for my work" ok with me.

But if they say "My expenses are high and I must do this to keep in business" it makes me think twice... not becuase I mind paying more or I would have a problem with the last two statements also, but because I don't like it when someone pisses on my leg and tells me it's raining... I am not outright accusing anyone of this pissing/raining situation at the moment, but just saying that it doensn't hold up in my head... guy in booth and our dealers only difference in service in terms of cost is covering lost in customs situations... yet dealer needs 100% markup to do it and even then it's not enough?

And remember 100% markup is not a 100% increase in profit margin... it's probably much higher than that. If the booth guy in China sells for $150 he probably paid $100-120 so $30 profit. If our dealer pays same but charges $300 that is $200 profit... he can loose 2 watches to customs and replace and break even.

I have had dealers tell me flat out this is fairly rare with some exceptions (like Texas where many dealers simply won't ship to anymore) so from the horses mouth it's not a huge expense.

I am not calling anyone out, and dealers no in China may have added expenses or not be ablet to get the same connections (in this case it comes down to something else... is it wise to even try this business froma location where your opperating expense is forced to be higher?) but I just say reasons are reasons, they exist and who is to say either way, but I for one will always apply the laugh test to any reason given for something becuse if it's true it will hold up and no problem.

My Daytona has no such marking...

I hope that's just water all over the watches... I hate to think of the pain it would be to wash oyster juice out of a bracelet...

Number 1: Always ask first if they work on reps

Number 2: Did you only try one shop? There must be more options...

Number 3: $14 from Harbor freight got me a crystal press that would probably do the job for you...

In this case though it sounds like you need to let this project go and move on...

How do you guys get the super thin slotted screws inside taken care of? Even my 1.0mm is too thick to fit in the slot for the 1.2 mm screws...

For anyone who wants to setup multiple paypal accounts here is all I did:

Create an account at epassporte.com

This site lets you change the name and address that appears on your credit card at will... ie I can make my credit card name "John Brown 123 Fake St, NY NY one day, then change it to Mary J Blige 4432 Main St, Capitol, AZ in just a few seconds and do it as I please).

Create a PP account with whatever info you like, match it to the epassporte info (or vice versa) and use the epassporte card to verify.

Use this account to recieve funds.

Have a different 'real' pp account.

Every time you get paid at the 'fake' account, immediately transfer to your 'real' account. If the fake one gets shut down, change your epassporte info and go again.

I have a 'real' one only becuase I dump money to my bank from it.

Worked for me... btw I didn't do this because I am selling anything that might get my pp closed, I did it becaues I was tired of getting hit with fees on every transaction... now if you pay me by cc I send you to my 'other' account where I have to pay fees to accept cc, but if you pay me by bank backed or pp funds where there is no fee involved, I have you send to my main account. Saved me a LOT in fees.

what joshua and andrew can do is set up a regular merchant account on to their site from their bank where ever they live, and we can check out with our credit cards on their sites, and no need for paypal.

Think that one through just a little bit more

So being rather tired I was pulling my crown (that sounds dirty) and on the third pull I stupidly didn't push it all the way back in... it got pulled in date set position and now when I put it back it only goes into date set...

Is this a matter of opening it up and reseting the keyless works or is there a simpler way to fix this (or is it worse than fixing keyless works)?

Thanks!

There ya go... the rotor was the step I was missing, thanks!

Now I got a bigger problem but that I will put in a new post....

http://replica-watch.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5984

?

After looking more closesly it seems that the gear the click holds moves... I don't mean rotates on it's axis, it's axis seems to move...

Here's what I am doing, I move the click out of the way, nothing unwinds, so I turn the crown in an anti winding direction, the gear actually completely moves towards the click quite a bit (probably 1/8th inch) it gets to the point where the tooth of the gear touches the click evne though I have moved it out of the way and then more reverse winding of the crown simply engages the clutch and slips so the gear does not unwind...

Still looking for any help, thanks!

MB is great for UK members, sucks for US members... you will most likely have to load it up using wiretransfer (read: fee) because most US credit cards block transactions to gaming websites and MB can be used to fund gaming so they are blocked (at least on all of mine).

This is really gonna suck if they stop taking paypal...

I am surprsied your AD worked on the bracelet given that it's obviously now gen... but yeah anyone can screw something up

Ho exactly did you break your link especially without damaging others? That seems tricky... and scary..

I must be missing something... I have the crown in the wind position, push the click aside... nothing... nothing unwinds, the watch just keeps running... it sounds to simple to be missing a step... any ideas?

It seems I can't get the click far enough out fo the way... even when I push it as far as I can it still touchs the tip of the gear... I can crank the crown backwards and teh gear rotates until the tip touchs the click... but that's it... I can then push teh gear with a pin and it will pass the click that one tooth, but the click slips in right after, so at this rate I have to unwind one tooth at a time

Am I supposed to press the crown release button first?

Any advice appreciated...

I don't know... I too believe the ladies only comes in quartz and auto is only for the larger mens size... perhaps there are different factories or versions of this?

Who is TT? Is that TTK or Two Tone?

Well as for the high end model I can't say myself, but I can say this one is quite shiny and nice looking...

It's important to remember this is only one piece so a small sample, but someone at RWI recently got a high end one... http://replica-watch.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14213

Hmmm... the gap is rather sizeable but perhaps foam would be doable... now that I think about it perhaps even some foamy tape... I have some double sided foam tape I will try to make a cheap one out of for a test... considering it seems the movement is safe from water, maybe the tape would suffice to keep the majority out and also provide a decent filter for airflow as per The Zigmeister...

Unfortunately this all means taking the caseback off again which probably involves the bracelet... ack....

How tight is the bezel? The bezel on my girlfriend's watch is loose (turns very easily, and can be rocked back and for quite easily).

It seems pretty tight... clicks and holds each click like my sub rep does... I will check it again when I get home but I didn't get the feeling it was loose at all...

@Ubi, thanks for the compliment! I like to give back to the community that has given me so much

@sammalone good stuff... yeah if I open it again I will take more shots, there are lots of pics that didn't make the review (sadly my lighting setup is poor and my hobbie room is effectionately named the "garbage room" for a reason so getting good shots is not easy...

@tonton thanks! I appreciate it!

@phoband This is indeed a sweet watch, however the diamonds are what makes it for me... I just don't feel the non diamonds ones so much... the funny thing is this still has the rotating bezel even though there is no way the diamonds help you figure out any sort of timekeeping

The funny thing is I was in Kohls (or maybe target) and saw some watches that looked very similar... same design but I am pretty sure it was plastic... funny the designer knockoffs you can find out there...