correctime

mitch....??....oh mitch...???

I agree with tha as well.

I've had them all along the way as well as the late great WM9's, TC's and a Sean

(though I didn't actually do anything with the Sean case as it was at that time RedWatch posted his 16800 build...so I sold the Sean case)

If TC's are 90%, what is a piece using "all" gen parts with the exception of the mid case considered ?

"EVERYTHING" gen but the mid case...........with the correct date era warranty paper(case engraved to match the paper), boxed set with all accessories, the works......??

For me, a super Franken with genuine movement is as good as the real deal. Of course, with a gen on the wrist, never any fear of being called out. Rolex will always be considered fake. When I wear an IWC or PAM, no one knows what i am wearing. So, it's always assumed to be "real" whatever that means.

I have to agree with daniel...Super Franken builds with gen mvts. IMO are as good as having the real thing. If a case accepts "all" gen parts with no modding required then what's the real difference between a Super Franken and a gen ?

Gloss, color, finish, smoothness ??

I've seen alot said regarding the differences in the look of 316 SS and 904 SS.

In my opinion that can only be noticed if the two are side by side...and even then that can be difficult if your Franken piece has been in the hands of a jeweler that "really" knows the properties and densities of all the various metals and "really" knows how to work it.

Question is...when does a rep become a piece that the gen world would accept ??

Or should I ask when does an aftermarket build become good enough to interest the gen world ?

Richard Carver is still running it on a Windows 95 box-- can't you tell. 

 

Best bet is to use Watchrecon.com --- Watchrecon USED To allow you to filter by forum, but for some reason removed that option. (If anyone has in-roads with them, tell them to bring back the per forum feature)

+1 on watch Recon.

THAT's a great search engine for watches and parts 

Great input Brother. And greatly appreciated.

So then  you're saying it's possible that some Rolex Factory printed 16800/16803  dials (NOT refinish jobs) would have.......

1- the hyphen not centered above  30 second indice (which is perfectly centered under the 6 position stick bar) ?

2- a tiny head hole on the coronet at 12 position?

3- the R in oyster not being under the right leg of the R in Rolex ? 

The "picture framed"  opening for the date ?

4- the ends of the < in T<25 not lining up perfectly with the 29 second indice ?

Look at this dial and see the long coronet. 

 

A recent educational "sit down" regarding Factory Printed Rolex dials on  beyeler and singer dial plates has me skeptical about your dial not being refinished sometime in it's life...for 2 reasons:

1- tiny head hole in your tall coronet

2- the hyphen between Swiss and T<25 isn't centered above the 30 second indice.

(the placement of the R in oyster in referring to the R in Rolex is iffy too.

This newfound information is debatable and is open for discussion.

I mentioned this to dutchguy upon seeing his Super Franken builds (which by the way look AWESOME) so this is a good thead for facts and info from the Rolex Pro's.

Does anyone happen to own a 1985, '86 or '87 (exact dates they switched from painted markers/matte finish is sketchy) 16800

168000  that they've owned since new...one owner...knowing the dial has never been refinished ??

Flat S? Anything else and I'm flat out guessing!

Flat S? Anything else and I'm flat out guessing!

YES...the flat S.

Very limited production run...even shorter than the highly sought after 168000.

Good eye Panerai153 regarding matte finish.

I didn't know this until I began the 16800 build but as it was put to me, 16800 dials with gold ringed marker came glossy from the factory.

Over time they did one of three things:

1-nothing

2-turned matte

3- lacquer cracked causing the "spider web" effect.

I asked my buddy the same question regarding why it was pulled. 

It  was actually pulled by his father out of his fathers watch that owned it new since 1985.

These guys (my buddy and his father) have been in the Rolex/Fine Watches and Jewelry game for decades.

His father is somewhat of a perfectionist and the darking of the markers appearantly bothered him. (he too asked as his Father "why would you pull a perfectly good dial")

there's also a very interesting story regarding that insert. It's the transitional version from 1986 when Rolex switched case material from 316 to 904 SS.

pictures don't show it nearly good enough but it seems this insert has a brighter silvery gold metallic laquer used for the numbers.

By itself it looks more like a 16800 Black/Silver insert but the idea was to use this approach, allowing the reflection of the 18k bezel and gold font on the dial to turn it gold.

I haven't handled this one yet (but it's mine now ) though the pics he sent me shows it works...the numbers turn gold when on the 18k bezel ring.

Not nearly as vivid in color as the gold metallic insert of the standard 16803/16808/16613/16618 but certainly gold.

IMHO it's a perfect match to the shade of gilt font on the dial and the patina'd markers and insert pearl are icing on the cake.

I'll be using this dial/insert combination on a 16803 I'm planning.

I LOVE the dark patina but I'm sure finding a set of gold 3035 tritium hands to match will be difficult.

I've got a set of NOS silver 3035/3135 hands still in the pack from Rolex to trade if anyone happens to have (or knows someone that has) gold hands with dark patina.

How much of a discount ??

I could use 2 of these

http://ndtradingcorp.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=467

Matte dial with WG surrounds?

yellow gold surrounds on the 16803

(WG is on the SS version 16800)

But nope....I really can't believe this is being overlooked

NICE !

These vintage models with the domed plexi's are staring to "grow" on me.

Congrats on a great looking piece

No idea Brother.

Now back to the subject of the 16803 please

Beginning of '85(dialed produced only in 1984 for '85 models) is correct but this particular run didn't last until '88.....it ended in late '84...VERY short production and VERY rare... C'mon guys....look at the dial. What do you see that stands out amoung the rest of the 16800/16803 dials ?? This and the insert was offered to me by a buddy (and a great guy with an unlimited fountain of Rolex History Facts.....40+ year veterans) I immediately spotted it....and of course immediately accepted the offer to purchase

Thanks for all the input guys.

But the detail I immediately noticed, putting this dial at a low production run time span is being overloooked.

I know the exact year this watch was pulled from....trust me it's a correct 16803....but what year ??

panarei153 was right in saying it's a pretty rare dial so it's likely he see's what I see.

It's as rare as and had a limited production run as the 1680000

Is there anything on this dial that signifies the transitional model of that era??

I have to admit my heart skipped half a beat when I saw  this

So the build for a 16803 TT begins.

Can anyone acurrately put the years of proction run on this dial. Thanks guys.

Something with a gold bezel and crown paired with a Blue dial/gold hands.

Congrats....that looks awesome to me.

I've always liked the looks of the Tudor Snowflakes.

Well done Brother.

Wear it in good health.

There's a member over on RWI that has experimented with something similar to your idea of paper OL's but he uses water-slide decals for his.

At least that's what I've heard...I've never actually seen one...or even seen pics of one posted.

Considering the fact that rep Factories have been  spitting out DW's and OL's for decades now and still haven't gotten them "perfect" as of yet,  I'd say do what's necessary to have them done right...and on the SS Blank.

(built it and they will come.)

While a paper OL may very well work great (and look good too) going that route is merely a "temporary sollution".

Why not go with something nobody else seems to have available at rhe moment.

Having alot of interest in them here is one thing

but produce something (dials, DW's and OL's) that's accurate looking enough to use in a gen and that takes it an entirely different level...for the better.  

A friend of mine is goldsmith she will try the bezel for me in a couple of weeks. 18k plating.

The problem I have is to somehow tear the bracelet apart so that we can plate the midlinks.

Unfortunately TC couldn't deliver a bracelet that wasn't put together yet. So all the links separate. That would make the job a lot easier.

Interesting to see if your friend succeeds.

I will keep you posted.

He used the gen 16613 parts...actually disassembled the Bracelet links for the making of the moldings.

He sent them somewhere here in the US to see about having them produced but it seems the links have a coronet/hallmark somewhere on them and the Co. said they wouldn't do it.

I'm not exactly sure where he stands on production of the bracelets at the moment but I do know he's molding/machining the 14k and 18k bezel rings himself.

Well I am going for a gen insert, gen datewheel, gen hands and WM9 dial from BK ;-)

Bracelet will be the hardest to achieve for both of us.

I know a jeweler that's in the process of molding links for these high priced TT Bracelets

He's working on the first run of the 14k and 18k bezel rings too.

(yes...he's a jeweler/gemologist and knows how to add the alloys to 14k for that darker 18k look....though he's doing a few in 18k too)

That's a modern gen 16610 insert...likely just mis-labeled when it was listed.

He "does" have a pretty large supply of parts to have to list and you can be certain he knows his parts, numbers and models.

The seller is a top-notch guy.

He's stands behind customer satisfaction and honors the full refund policy.

Anthony would never intentionally steer anyone wrong.

I've said it and will say it again, we need a Sapphire subs subforum. Organized data matrix with all the data for these submariners. Yes, there is a search button, but it can take a whole to get certain basic details.

That's really not a bad idea Brother.

How is your build comming along ??

As has been mentioned....the rehaut is too deep for a 16800.

And nope...the LV never came with lug holes.

Maybe sell the case (or use it for a 16610 build....it certainly looks great ) and pick up a 3035 holed case for a 16800.

Junk it....and send it to me please

Joke....finish it Brother.

As has already been mentioned....you're so close........it'll be a keeper and you'll be glad you did.

Nope....it wouldn't be incorrect at all.

While they would have first came with the T<25 dial,  a service replacement Swiss Made Lumi dial would be installed by RSC when serviced.....so you're good either way