By-Tor

I believe the "keep everything original" is more Rolex vintage-related stuff. Rolex service can confiscate and replace some extremely valuable dials, for example. Then they can polish classic ones and screw them up (in collector's eyes). Rolex is a fascist organization. I've lost all respect for them lately. Couldn't care LESS about their current lineup. But that's for another story. I wouldn't touch the dings, either. Your watch looks like two-tone so it's a bit different but original Navitimer is kinda tool watch, despite the polished bracelet. Dings are just handsome and give the watch some character. Lovely Navitimer... it's a legend!

Yes indeed. Some gens are just so expensive that it's impossible to justify myself buying them. Like those 16710's that I previously mentioned. It's not a $7K watch. There are millions of them. I wouldn't buy my gen Rollies for the prices that the market demands now.

Good observation. I've never worn any actual classic dress watches because of my physical size. Like Cellini.The dressiest one I have is probably a rep Day-Date. And even that looks silly small. But yes. Of course there are some larger dress watches that are nice. Some IWC's immediately come to mind.

You know I'm a genuine rep lover (pun intended). I love my reps. Some of my oldest reps are way over 10 years old and they've been super durable and good watches. I've owned over 100 reps and lots of gens. From cheap Invicta-type shit to relatively expensive items. For me some reps are just something to enjoy tremendously (like my old light-franken SMP Chrono), sometimes they're a path to eventually getting the gen. I owned many reps of the watches that I eventually purchased as gens. I saved a lot of money by getting the reps first. I remember when I got the rep Daytona. After wearing it for a day I realized immediately that it wasn't a watch for me. Of course I do respect it... but boy... what a boring watch it was! Best watches to buy as reps are Rolexes. Funny to say that as I own 16610, 16710, 14060 and 16570 gens. Now they're asking $7K for an old 16710. That's laughable. They're not worth that. Don't get me wrong, I love my Rollies... but as watches they're nothing special. They made millions of 16710's. It's not like they're gonna be next red Sea Dwellers, COMEX Subs or Paul Newman Daytonas, ever. And then again... why would you buy a Chinese rep for $500 when the gen costs $1.5K in the preowned market, like Omega Seamaster or TAG Aquaracer? Quartz model even less. Yeah it'd be a quartz but it's also something that you could leave proudly to your son. Building frankens is a great hobby. I totally understand the thrill of building them, sourcing the parts, etc. Ubiquitous did this a lot and boy he built some GREAT frankens. Unfortunately I don't have his skills. But does it really make sense to build a 16800 franken for $3K when the gen can be had for less than $5K? Personally, I don't like the "Batmans" and "Hulks" at all. They do nothing for me. To me they look cheesy... real douchebag watches. Like "tuned up Beemers". IMHO Rolex did to their designs what Jaguar and Porsche did when they changed E-Type to XJS and 993 to 996. They screwed up. Don't get mad... that's just my personal opinion. New fat lugs black SS Submariner is okay and since it has been repped so well, I don't see any reason to buy the gen... for what... 8K? I understand price of $500 in that sense... although that kind of price for a rep would have been outrageous back in the day. Gens have certain details that reps can never have. Like taking a huge macro picture of a genuine Breitling and see how the bracelet sits PERFECTLY between the lugs in 1/10 millimeter tolerances. I've chosen the watches that I buy (as gens) after long consideration. I bought my gen Rollies back in the day because I used to be obsessive about them. But I don't think they're worth the prices they're asking now. But on the other hand some gens are worth every cent. This can be had for $2K in the preowned market. People always said that the "There's no reason to buy the gen as the SFSO rep is just as good". It's not. Not even close.

A "bump" from 10 years ago. Pictures back up for this old writeup too. Back then Tudor Subs were $1500 in the preowned gen market. How times have changed...

Another review back from the dead. Pictures back up.

This looks pretty much the same watch as my old rep to me. http://www.ttw-1388....oducts_id=16804 Perhaps it returned to Trusty just recently? Fat GMT hand, crooked crystal, cg's need a bit of trimming. SELs not stting that great. But all fixable.

Yeah. The current asking prices are ridiculous though. I don't think these are worth 6K or 7K. But that's what the market demands right now. The prices got up in just last two years. 2 years ago you still saw these for 4.5K USD. Might be a bubble. They made so many 16710's.

You bought a PAM? Traitor!

I'd love to buy a new Rolex rep. But the Hulks and Batmans (or whatever fat lugs models) are just plain BORING. They do nothing for me. New white Explorer II is the only one that grabs me at all. It was like transformation from PERFECT Jaguar E-Type to XJS. Or Porsche 993 to 996. The new ones weren't awful but they destroyed the classic lines and noses.

Amazing. All you old friends in the same thread. I'm planning to stay around this time. I just bought my first rep in years. I think I have owned this before. Haha.

Why I bought a genuine GMT Master II? Well, my beautiful correct hand stack version broke. The adjustable hour hand was problematic from the beginning. This movement has been discussed a lot lately, because some new reps of ceramic GMT IIc versions use this "system". My personal advice is to avoid this modification, unless you want to play Russian Roulette with 3 bullets. Read Ziggy's review for more. I fooled myself and thought that it could be kept in sync with the "rolling over the dial" hoodoo and voodoo trick. Well it worked temporarily, but in reality the whole movement was just an accident waiting to happen. Eventually the hour hand adjustment stopped working (completely), and on top of this the tube of the GMT hand cracked. According to my watch repair guy, the "Mystery Modder" (greetings man!), this is very typical with the chs movement. The diagnose: The hour hand gear can't be sourced. This means the movement is trashable. It really pissed me off because I had spent lots of time and effort to modify this watch to excellent condition. See the review of this extremely fine replica watch (now unfortunately only in past tense) here. Well, (just like my movement) I finally had enough with this piece of JUNK timebomb Chinese modification, which is kept together with glue, rubber bands and iron wires, and bought the gen. As much as I love reps, I'm going to stay away from all kinds of unnatural modifications from now on. I should have believed what Ziggy told me. Another reason why I wanted a gen now, rather than later, was that all reports in the watch world say that the 16710 prices would skyrocket in the next 10 years. Talked to the owner of Preownedrolex.com and he said these are the hottest items right now, and he actually has a waiting list for them. I especially wanted the hour hand adjustable 16710, because the 3185 movement in the modern GMT II (and Explorer II) is both fascinating and impressive. Think about it, what's so special about the 3135 inside the Submariner, Sea Dweller and other basic Rolexes? Yes, 3135 is a damn fine workhorse, but then again so is ETA 2836-2 and the function is just the same. Let's start the review itself: First, who wants to read a sterile review of a genuine Rolex? They're boring and Web is full of them, written by genuine and sterile watch snobs. Ok, just kidding... but you get the picture. We want something counterfeit and shady here, don't we? So I decided to do a little comparison between the rep and gen. I still have one perfectly working GMT replica left. This "Noobfactory" version is equipped with a "wrong hand stack" Asian movement, and has some excessive mods performed on it. For clarity, all pictures of the rep are with the "Coke" bezel. Mods done for this replica: 1. New thinner and longer GMT hand with perfect "triangle" shape. From Joshua! Takashi glued an unfitting hand over the old one. Very cleverly done. 2. Genuine crown and tube (JustAsGood) 3. New bezel with sharp teeth like gen (bklm1234) 4. New, high quality gen-like bezel insert with Sans Serif font (Ebay). (Not installed on the photo above). 5. Crown guards modified (by yours truly) Let's start picking up the details and breaking the myths (if necessary). MYTH 1: Bracelet and clasp: Genuine modern Rolexes use the higher grade 904 steel, and it gives somewhat "whiter" appearance in the daylight. It's always funny when people (who don't know what they're talking about) tell that "genuine bracelet feels so much better and heavier". The difference is actually minimal with properly oiled and polished replica bracelet, and what people don't realize is that there are actually differences between the replica bracelets too. Yes, the genuine clasp feels a bit better, but how could there be any kind of dramatic difference when both are made of stainless steel for Christ's sakes... and the weight difference is probably measured in grams or half-grams! I don't feel much difference between the gen and rep at all, except the gen has smoother and softer bracelet edges. But so what, making the rep band edges smoother isn't probably a big task. The steel color difference is extremely minimal, and can be only noticed on a direct heavy light exposure like on the next photo. People who say that they can "detect" even a good Rolex rep from the steel color (from someone's wrist) are either delusional, or have some kind of super-human eyesight. It's utter bs. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the good rep bracelets. The crown guards are a bit thicker on the gen, but after modding the shape on the rep is perfect. Almost impossible to notice any difference in real life. The biggest problem with most replica bracelets is fitting of the SELs. There are usually noticeable gaps between the SEL and lugs. However, my franken-ExpII has utterly BRILLIANT SELs. But not all Noobfactory watches are so good in this regard. There are QC issues, and the SEL on my replica GMT tends to be a bit "wobbly". This could probably be fixed with thicker gen springbars. Gen SELs sit there extremely tight and the fit is perfect. This, of course, is more than reasonable exceptation from rather simplistic sport watch that retails (or retailed) at $6K. On the next photo, please notice the white "matter" crystal ring on top of the rehaut (on the rep). We'll talk about that later. The dial: The date magnification on genuine GMT Master II actually close to 2x, and the rep magnifications are always too big, as the next picture demonstrates. However, the difference is a bit exaggerated here as the rep is closer to the camera. And I've owned some ETA versions of the "Noob" GMT which probably had slightly smaller mags. Still too big though, and the date font on the rep is only 95% correct. There are some subtle differences, especially with certain date numbers like 10. The dial itself is very close on this brilliant Noobfactory version. Of course gen has very strong superluminova on the dial markers and hands, which the rep naturally can't compete against. Rehaut: The biggest visual difference is the rehaut, even compared to the best of the best Rolex replicas. It's not the depth, it's how the crystal and rehaut merge with eachother. Gen rehaut merges smoothly, leaving that very characteristic looking "dent" just below the crystal line, and the rehaut itself has very fine and shiny brushed finish. I've never seen a rep where this area looks completely accurate. Notice also the crystal height. I spent quite a lot of time to fit the insert there... make it properly recessed, and the height is perfect. The Noobfactory GMT has very good rehaut thickness, depth and shape... perfect actually... but as stated before, the appearance is too "matte" and "plasticy". MBK/TW watches are a bit better in this regard, but even they don't look all correct. I'm not certain, but the gen crystal might help with this problem. Look at the gen: The rehaut finish and crystal merging is "exact", and it looks shiny and beautiful. The actual rehaut depth on 16710 is lower than on 16610 Submariner, which might explain the smaller magnification. This is the angle where I can ALWAYS detect a Rolex replica. Yes, this all sounds very hardcore WIS Trekkie bastard stuff, but sometimes these smallest of details are so revealing. Value for money: This is difficult. You might want to ask how a plain, pretty simplistic stainless steel sports watch costs so much? Well, it has an inhouse movement, and everything actually is very well machined and scream quality, especially when you take zoomed pictures. But $6K... come on, it doesn't make any sense. These 16710's go for around $4.200 preowned right now, and the European prices are a bit higher. After long and hard search I managed to net my watch for $3550, which I consider very, very good deal for a superluminova/SEL GMT II with the "jumping hour hand" 3185 movement. Of course it will eventually need servicing, and a basic one costs 400 Euros! HOW CLOSE IS THE REP? On the next photo, which is which? Of course these two watches aren't comparable at all (technically), but visually they're extremely close (after the mods have been performed)... even by the replica "Trekkie" standards. The biggest difference is the rehaut. Although the depth is exact, it still looks a bit different on the gen. The gen, of course has a bit better "wrist presence", but the difference isn't that dramatic at all. Actually the gen feels a lot like "TW Best" GMT, or the "Retro" GMT that I sold to my friend TwoTone. Although being visually super accurate, the "Noobfactory" version somehow can't catch the same "wrist presence". It feels smaller, although the dimensions are exact and the rehaut depth is exact. It's impossible to explain why, the only thing I noticed that the outer diameter of gen bezel is about a millimeter wider. I knew they're going to be close, but it was still a shock to me how good the replica is visually, and also how close the overall "feel" is. This, of course, isn't very flattering to Rolex at all. The funniest thing after the photoshoot yesterday was when I was going to put on the gen and started to roll the crown & set the time correctly (I set the hands at 9:10 for my Rolex photoshoots) and I thought I was setting the gen. Then I noticed that it was the rep. Even now, I have to look them twice to tell them apart. And I doubt there are many who know the 16710 as well as I do. I've always said how close this rep is (providing you do the mods), and I don't know why the modders haven't found it yet. For some reason they waste fortunes for modding those MBW vintages, which require a lot of more work and money. The "Noob" GMT can be modified to superb condition for very moderate amount of money. And I'm 100% sure guys like Tribal and Ubi could do much better work than me. Maybe it's the handstack/movement issue... I never understood all the fuss about the hand stack, really... but people have different priorities. Myth 3: The "feel": Of course I'm happy that I finally got my perfect GMT Master II, perhaps my all-time favorite watch. I remember 2 years ago, when I discussed with Richard Lawton about purchasing one of his GMT reps... I bugged him with all kinds of weird questions (weird for a non-GMT freak), and he eventually said (in good spirit) that "the gen is the only one which is good enough for you". You were right my friend, you were right... Now you probably except me to say something along the lines of "Gen is gen, and it's an incredible feeling to have it on my wrist, reps won't cut it for me anymore, blah blah blah..." It's amazing how some people turn to boring "gen snobs" and start to look reps down their noses, immediately after they get their first expensive gen... like they "born again" or something. I actually find it quite pathetic. That won't happen to me. I have owned nice gens before, but I will always love the reps... and to me watch is a watch. I bought the gen for the reasons I described above, and because the Asian chs movement is such a terrible piece of toxic waste... and also because I actually think 16710 is a good investment (in the long run). I grew up with genuine Rolexes (my father is a collector) and there has never been anything "larger than life" on these watches for me. I'm sure the magnificent replica Ebel 1911 Discovery that I will get next, will give me the exact same thrill and excitement. Special thanks to my good friends Stephane and Jetsons. They offered to arrange me a GMT II from Stephane's New York trip. We considered this, because of the weak dollar prices are better in the US, but I managed to find this one from Europe, and for an excellent price. Also big thanks to all members who were so genuinely delighted that I got this watch. Probably more than me... I'm more of a rep guy, they're WAY more fascinating. Anyway... great guys, and great friends!

Indeed. Exactly the same thoughts about the President bracelet. Very dull and lightweight, especially the steel version. I haven't handled the gen platinum version though... and I'm sure if feels more substantial. Oyster is so much nicer. Middle links should be polished though. Maybe I'll polish them. Hmm...

Look, I put the Day-Date on old rep GMT/ExpII Oyster bracelet. It fits like a glove and the SELs and nicely recessed. I'm surprised how much more I like the watch now. It has been unused since the review but I wore it yesterday and today. It's pretty cool. It's still too small for a 6'3 guy and I'll probably put it for sale soon... but I'm surprised how much more wearable it's on a Oyster when you have big wrists and hands.

Sportier one with black bezel. Classier one with shiny bezel.

I received this from ricracy today. Great member great transaction. Watch in perfect condition. I also have a gen Ebel leather strap for this. But for now I'll wear it with the bracelet. I was stupid enough to sell my old BTR. Not going to happen again. And boy do I still love this watch. Not the most accurate rep ever, but definitely one of the most solid rep ever built. Superb bracelet, super strong AR. I'm still searching for the white version. So if someone wants to sell, contact me. PS: I wanted to add this to my review section (to the BTR review) but all threads are closed. I can't. I have requested two times already... can you please open the section? Thanks.

Another old review pictures back up. This was THE shit back in the day before TC. To be honest I thought this was "perfect" enough. I bought a gen 16610 two years ago and I still have my WM9 with gen crown, gen insert and new sels (a gift from bklm1234 when my son was born). It's very good, in my opinion, even compared to my gen. The only real difference is that the gen bracelet can never be replicated 100%. It has very special "feel", although being just that lowly hollow Oyster-thing. Can't put my finger on it what's so different. Mine has now gen crown and bklm's new SEL's. Thanks again bklm if you're reading this. You were a true friend and a great modder. PS: Please guys... make the review threads in my sections open again (so people can reply to then).

Hey Tribal my man... you're still around! Cheers!!!

Haha it's like Panerai and me. We never built any kind of relationship. What do you have in your collection these days Stephane?

Cool. How come the articles in my review section can't be replied at all? It was possible before. I'd like to add more replies to the reviews but can't.

I'm in the process of reuploading all my review pictures because Photobucket has "hijacked" them. But when I edit the post I can only see the photos, not the photo URL's. This is why I can't copy the reviews to any other rep forums (where the pictures are down too). How can I make the pics show up as <img>http//www.xxximage.jpg</mg> in the edit mode? You know what I mean?

Yeah that Discovery. Thanks. But I'm not selling it. Selling the BTR was a mistake. But those are very common. It was quite popular rep. They come up in the member sales quite often I think. And gens go for 1K in WatchUseek which is ridiculous for this very nice watch.

Haha great to see you mr. Belgium!!!!! Yeah I bought a "new" one. I've owned many of these but sold them all. I actually came back to buy this rep again.

Alaska is beautiful.

Haha. Thanks guys. I haven't taken any watch photos in years. I have to take a few eventually and see if my skills are still there.