stang

Are there any "brand-name" watchmakers that use the asian clone movements? I'm under the impression that replica manufacturers are the only ones to use the asian copies of the 7750 and other Swiss movements. I agree that higher quality Asian movements would be a viable option for manufacturers using Swiss movements, although, as you said, consumers are programmed to believe that Swiss movements are the pinnacle of horological achievement. The "Swiss Made" label does carry a ton of clout with consumers. Not that this is undeserved ... the Swiss have always strived to produce the finest watches and movements available. Their reputation is definitely well deserved. It just sucks that it's becoming more expensive to get a very high quality movement in a replica, whether it's Swiss, Asian or other.

After reading the replies and checking the latest prices on Josh's site, it appears that the price for a Swiss 7750 has risen about $200 in the last 6-8 months. A chronomat Evo used to be about $800 and they're about $1000 now. Apparently this trend will continue if I'm interpreting your comments correctly (or has the increase already been accounted for w/ weak USD and ETA's exporting restrictions?). I agree that the best solution would be Asian movements w/ similar QC to the Swiss counterparts but I don't think this will happen. For example, why improve quality when your competitor's product has increased in price dramatically ... this just makes your existing product more appealing based on the price differential. Cheaper ETAs would be an incentive to improve quality (more competition), not pricier ones. Overall, these changes seem to be making things worse for the replica market. Too bad, I liked the trend which seemed to exist a year ago when there were more and more Swiss powered watches becoming available. One thing I never understood was how the Asian replica market managed to obtain ETA movements in the first place. I thought ETA corporation and a number of Swiss regulations (or business practices) prevented sales of Swiss movements to non-swiss companies. At the very least I thought you had to be a well-established and reputable manufacturer of your own brand to obtain ETA or other Swiss movements. I didn't think someone from China could call up ETA and order 100 or so Valjoux 7750s and get them. Apparently, almost anyone could buy ETA movements if they wanted. Surprising. Sorry for beating a dead horse. I didn't know the horse was dead or that anyone had ridden the horse. Regards all, Jeff

I read on Timezone or somewhere else that ETA (supplier of 80% of the movements and ebauches' (sp?) from Switzerland) is planning to cease production and supply of its movements by 2010. Apparently, they wanted to stop supply earlier but some watch governing board forbade them from doing so prior to 2010. This, supposedly, will give other companies time to develop and "tool-up" for production of new movements to replace this void. Even sourcing of the hairsprings for the balances has become a major issue. Like the ETA movements, there is a monopoly on hairspring supply, with basically only one company (nivaflex?) producing them. Rolex now makes their own hairsprings but they are the exception. Since there have been more and more reps containing ETA or other Swiss (Lemania) movements recently (a very good trend in my opinion), I wonder how this transition will affect the replica market in the next few years. I'm guessing that availability will decrease with a cuncurrent increase in price for ETA based reps. Not good. Also, while the influx of new movements will probably create a greater diversity in the genuine sector, this will probably make it more difficult to have desired replicas made. Consider how many watches there are based on the 7750 platform. Currently, all a rep maker has to do is source an ETA or Asia 7750 and there are dozens of possible watches to clone using this engine. Now consider a chrono market with dozens of different movements. Different subdial layouts, different features, displays, etc. It will be almost impossible to buy one movement and have it used for many different watches. What watches will a rep maker choose to copy? How accurate will they be able to make the watches? How much will the price for a particular rep increase considering the larger investment and risk associated with specific needs for each watch? What movements will the Asian's choose to copy? I would like to hear peoples thoughts on this issue. I don't see this as being good for the replica market but maybe I'm missing something. Regards, Jeff

Ironmarshall, RE: the UN Marine Chrono from Perfect-Clones I'm assuming you're joking. The UN Marine Chrono would be my (realistic) rep dream watch, but the version from Perfect-Clones is a joke. It uses the 21J Asia auto with a faux chrono! :yucky: I'm not a stickler for 100% accuracy but a "chrono" watch without a working chronograph is just too lame. Since the genuine uses the ETA 2894, this watch could very easily be repped to 98% accuracy (only inaccuracy would be a 30 min subdial rather than the Gen's 45 min counter) using the 2894 movement. I could/would easily live with this inaccuracy just to get that wonderful movement in the beautiful UN chrono case!! The Maxi Marine Diver would be a nice watch too, although I much prefer chronographs. I like the UN's w/ gold cases and blue rubber straps w/ gold bars. I can't imagine anyone buying that cheesy UN Chronograph w/ the fake chrono (heck, they didn't even copy the subdial numbers properly! Soooo cheesy) Regards, Jeff

I know I'm in the minority here but I kind of like the new Silberstein watch (saw it on Andrew's site). Even though I prefer the beauty of Ulysse Nardin watches, I have to admit that I can appreciate the "fringe-of-sanity" watches made by Silberstein. For example, it's certianly a watch that will get noticed! Second, it's fairly unique in it's design ... I don't see many (read *any*) watches that look like it at work, at dinner, at parties, etc. You can pay 30 grand for a Patek and most people won't even notice it let alone have any idea how much you paid. At least with the Silberstein you can say "I paid $XXXX" for it when someone invariably asks you about it. I realize I'm being fairly shallow, but If I paid $10,000 for a watch I would want EVERYONE to notice it, not just the few WIS's there are out there. Plus, you don't have to worry much about someone showing up at the party wearing something that looks the same. I doubt I would pay the $$$$ for a real Silberstein, but I would certianly wear it all the time if I got it as a gift. However, I'm still waiting for a really good Ulysse Nardin rep. Marine Chronograph, Chrono Annual Calender, Sonata, Freak or Perpetual calender. Regards all, Jeff

By-Tor, I like the Zenith rainbow also. I think it's a pretty cool looking watch. Seems like an ETA 7753 (tricompax) would work perfectly. The extra cost of the Swiss movements is less important to me now. The Asia 7750 is much cheaper ... but not that much after having a $200 servicing. I'd rather pay more for a better movement up-front. Then again, I don't buy a lot of reps (just the SMP chrono so far, which I love BTW). Pugwash, I'll take your word for it that the 2894 is difficult to work on. This is why I would be happy if they just put it in a Ulysse Nardin Marine Chronograph "as-is". I could easily live with a minute counter calibrated in 30 min scale. The 45 min scale is far less important to me than having an excellent movement in a beautiful case. Since I don't try to pass off my rep as a gen, the 30-min subdial inaccuracy is of little consequence to me. Getting an ETA 2894 for around $1000 is far more important. (the cheapest watch I can find w/ the ETA 2894 is a new Invicta model which I don't like the looks of. Plus the cost is over $2000, maybe close to $3000 ... not sure off the top of my head). Thus, I wish they would just build the case and put in the 2894 as-is, no mods. I would happily pay $1000 to $1200 for this rep. Regards gentlemen! Be well, Jeff

After reading more, I agree with Andyking's earlier posts. I adore Ulysse Nardin watches too. Overall, I think UN makes the most unique and beautiful watches of any manufacturer. Sporty yet classic, masculine but not monsterous, contemporary and traditional at the same time! I love their use of colors, metals and design. The Royal Blue Tourby and the Sonata are unbelieveably beautiful watches IMO. I've decided on my dream rep... The Marine Chronograph using the ETA 2894 movement (same base mvt as the gen). I'd prefer it in gold (plating), w/ the blue dial, blue rubber strap and gold "bars" on the strap. This watch could easily be 99% accurate in appearance and function. The min counter on the gen is calibrated for 45 min while the base 2894 is 30 minl. This may be an easy fix mechanically (?) or just have the dial correct and the user would have to mentally calculate the correct # of minutes passed. Exampl:. dial reads 20 min so 20/1.5 = 13.3 min actually elapsed. Price should be around $1K, which I would pay w/o hesitation if executed (repped) properly. I am praying and praying and praying....

Hmmm, strange results. First I ran the chrono for 15 hours (stopped at the 3 mark) and reset it. The pointer moved, but in the wrong direction! It was then -0.75 hours rather than -0.5 hours and looked even worse since the pointer was between hash marks now. I then ran it for 21 hours (stopped at the 9 mark) and reset it. This returned it to -0.5 hours. I'll now try stopping it at 19 hours (7 mark) to hopefully have enough inertia to move it further clockwise towards the 12 mark. Anyhoo, this technique generally seems to be working ... just takes a long time to adjust it properly. THANK YOU VERY MUCH for the advice Tourby & Scoobs. Regards, Jeff

I would love to see a rep using the ETA 2894 movement. There are now many rep watches with ETA 7750 movements, I would like to have one with the 2894 movement (it's smaller & lighter than the 7750 and has 37 jewels). The price of the movement from Ofrei is approx $430 while the 7750 goes for approx $390. Here is the link if anyone is interested: http://www.ofrei.com/page240.html Valjoux 7750 http://www.ofrei.com/page_183.html ETA 2894 Therefore, the price of a rep using this movement shouldn't be more than the $750-800 being charged for the ETA 7750 models. I can't think of any watches that use this movement off the top of my head (except the TAG monaco which I don't like). I think it would make a great Omega Planet Ocean Chrono rep ... even if the subdial arrangement and pusher-2-crown level isn't correct. (the 2894 has small seconds at 3-o-clock & the pushers are lower than the crown). But ... you would have one of the best looking watch designs with one of the best (reasonably priced) movements available. The subdials on the 2894 are closer together so this would reflect the genuine's spacing better. A Pam submersible rep would also be really cool. I would pay 1K for either of these reps. On a tangent, I would also love to see a Hublot Bigger Bang if that could be repped for a reasonable price (probably not).

Steppen, I believe the 7753 *is* a modified 7750 ... the only difference between the two versions being the placement of the minute subdial (12-o-clock for the 7750, 3-o-clock for the 7753). Other than that, everything is the same. There is also a 7751 (chronograph) version which has moonphase display and something else (I forget what, a GMT, month display, ??). This model is sig different than the 7750/7753 (more complex & expensive). Jeff

Tourby, OK, thanks for clarifying that for me. I will try running it for 13(+) hours then resetting it to see if it corrects the alignment problem. LOL ... but seriously, I love using the chrono. I'm a scientist so I actually have use for the chrono in the lab to time rxns, instrument troubleshooting, etc. I also like to keep the chrono running much of the time because that is the only way I can get "center seconds" operation. I loathe small seconds displays but chronos always use the center hand for the chrono. According to the master (The Zigmeister) it is perfectly fine to have the chrono running constantly. Since it's an automatic, I don't have to worry about burning up the battery quicker by keeping it on constantly, as in a quartz. I recently had the movement serviced by The Zigmeister so I'm confident that it will run reliably so long as I don't do anything stupid to it. I recall The Zigmeister saying that a properly serviced Asia 7750 (the new models) will be almost as reliable as the Swiss counterpart. I've worn it almost every day for 8 months (much chrono operation to boot) and haven't had any serious problems with it yet. I dropped it and the min hand came loose and now this reset issue. However, the first problem was my fault, not the watch's. Thanks for the feedback and advice Tourby & Scoobs. Have a great night! With regards, Jeff C.

Tourby, I'm having the same problem w/ my A7750. Several weeks after having it serviced, the hour totalizer (subdial) started resetting to the 11.5 hour position. Although it's only 30 min off the "12-o-clock" position, it's annoying me. The chrono runs fine and the min subdial resets to the "12-o-clock" position like it should. I had trouble understanding the advice you gave to Scoobs. Do I run the chrono until it reaches the 1 hour (or 8 hour, 9 hour, etc) position, then stop the chrono and reset it? I've already tried resetting the chrono from a few different "hour" totalizer positions (and it always resets to one index left of the top (0/12 hour) position. Did I interperate your instructions properly? Do I hit the reset button while the chrono is running? Do I have to run the chrono for over 12 hours so that it completes one full turn before resetting? I don't have the skills to open this thing up and I don't want to ship it out again. Thanks, in advance, for your help. Sincerely, Jeff

I'm not sure what forum The Zigmeister peruses but I figure this one is a good bet. I wanted to extend my sincere gratitude to The Zigmeister for servicing my watch and reluming the face/hands. The Zigmeister fixed the dislocated minute hand and did his thorough servicing work with a very quick turn-around time. (once my appointment date had arrived) The Superluminova application looks and works excellent, much better than the original lume. There are a few scratches on the minute hand which are noticeable upon close inspection, but I was warned that this is a distinct possibility when relume work is done. The quality of the relume work more than compensates for the appearance of the scratches ... I would definitely do it again. The $200 fee for service of the A7750 (complete disassembly, cleaning, oiling, reassembly, etc) is very fair in my opinion, especially considering the fees others charge and the questionably thorough job they do (swish & dip???). I trust The Zigmeister's skill and ethics. Similarly, his relume work ($100) is very reasonable and beautifully done. The skeleton hands on the Seamaster are very difficult to work on, but he did a great job. KUDOS The Zigmeister!! (I wanted to acknowledge you publicly rather than via PM). FYI to members, the waiting list is very long but worth the wait IMO. Cheers Rob! Sincerely, Jeff (Mustang)

ironmarshal, I, too, am a huge fan of Ulysse Nardin watches. Overall, I think they are the most beautiful watches I've ever seen. They seem to have a very rare and enigmatic blend of styling features which makes them both very unique and stunningly beautiful. They have masculine, modern and classical features all blended wonderfully into a magnificent overall effect. I love the skeleton hands, blue, gold & rose color combos, mix of materials (rubber & metal ... like Hublot), classic dials/indexes/bezels, etc. A few of my favorites are the GMT/perpetual limited 42mm(gold/leather), sonata cathedral, and Maxi-marine chronograph. The marine series is truly beautiful and the special editions are stunning (eg the Freak). BTW ... I was BLOWN AWAY when I saw UN's "Trilogy of Time" collection. These are the most unique and creative watches I've ever seen. They make "grand complications" seem mundane by comparison. Unreal. I wish I could afford a Marine Chronograph, I love that watch. Maybe someday a replica will be available for us financially-challenged watch lovers! : )

If I remember The Zigmeister's review of the new A7750 @ 28,800, he said it is remarkably better than the older versions. Once it's cleaned and oiled properly (~$200) it should be as reliable and accurate as the Swiss model. Even w/o the service it seems to be quite sturdy. My SMP chrono w/ the A7750 is running fine after 8 months. I dropped it and the min hand came loose but the movement is still running fine (as judged by the chrono operation and sec/hour hand keeping proper time). Hopefully, The Zigmeister can get to it soon. Good luck and have fun! Jeff