archibald

I'm having I hard time deciding if tourbillions are nice looking or ugly.

I love the technical complexity though!

I like them even if I'm not a huge fan, but since I've decided every collector needs one example of every complication to make their watch collectin complete (and have an excuse to blow cash on another watch), I'll pick one up of they put one in a watch I like.

Since, as per River's vids, it looks like the center tourbillon movements are a 1:1 swap, they ought to replace the innacurate flying tourbillons w/ the center tourbillon and a "wavy" blue hand in the Muller version they already make. Aside from the tourbillon looking a little different cosmetically (who has muller tourbillons memorized?) that would be a sweet watch.

For what it's worth, I'm using IE (version 7 beta) and can't even remember the last time I got a popup ad.

Just move your mouse up to "tools." Then click "privacy" tab. Then check the "block popups" box. Then click "OK". No more popups.

As long as this has been bumped, anyone thrown on a gen dial or bezel yet?

In principle, sure. I don't call it being ripped off though, but yes, the principle is the same.

However, your maths are way off. You've not included research, design, marketing, tax, duty, service, packaging ... none of which applies to the rep.

Not to mention full page ads in every slick magazine in the world, executive bonuses, sporting tournament sponsorships, real estate costs in the highest rent shopping districts in the world. That's my point: When you by a rep you're paying for the watch manufacuring + dealer profit + shipping. When you buy a genuine watch, especially those powered by stock ETA movements you're paying for those things and all of the above. Someone griping about whether a dealer makes 200, 300, or 400% profit on an item that is comaparively cheap is pointless.

What's that old joke?....

"A man says to his wife 'sorry dear, but I've been made redundant, so you will have to go out and be a prostitue to raise some cash for us to live on'. After her first night out the wife returns home looking totally dishevelled, and places her haul on the kitchen table. '$110 and 50 cents. Not much! And which miserable bastard gave you the 50 cents?' the husband asked. 'All of them!!' she replies.

(best thing this thread was for was a good crap!!)

Wow, I haven't seen a rep's-cost-14-cents-in-cina thread in a long time.

Let's see. A 2892 powered, steel, genuine Muller probably costs $400 bucks to produce. They sell for $8,000. Appying that math to a 2892 powered conquistador, the rep should cost about $1.50 to make. If they cost the factories more than $1.50, the rep industry is ripping us off less than the luxury gen industry is ripping off their customers. Plus, genuine customers have to leave their houses, generally, to buy watches.

Who cares what everybody in the rep industry makes? We get cool watches for amazing prices. And we're talking about watches, for God's sake, not smart bombs. Beleive me, no matter what country you live in there are rackets going on that are far more eggregious, rackets that you should have spent the time you spent wondering how much TTK makes, on an email to your elected official.

My doctor (who wears a gen gold Navitimer, BTW) chrarges $110 to spend three minutes to tell me what I knew when I walked in the door--that I have a cold--and then he signs a slip of paper so my insurance company can pay $125 for 10 decongestants that cost 11 cents to make, which I can't even get if they don't pay the doc $110 to sign the paper. And in the richest country on earth there are millions of people who can't even afford to be extorted to get the medicine that might improve their lives. Now that's a racket!

Anybody want to show off their 18kt FM? I'm still waiting so I was hoping to see something from the lucky people that have watch in hand.

Cheers,

CM

I'm still waiting too--anyone who ordered a 2824 recieved theirs yet?

Sadly, they don't make good reps of most of the gens i adore--PAM 082, 120, or any anthricite dial, muller automatic chronos, JLC dress watches, Glasshuttes, etc. But they make enough good reps of watches i like alot, that I only have 3 gens out of as many as 20 watches at a time.

My personal rule is this: never buy a gen of watch that is decently repped and never buy a replica of a gen that can't be decently repped.

To each his own....I can't argue with your thinking, but as a relative newbie, I prefer to remain "unburned", so I'm sticking with the guys I've had good experiences with...Actually, I buy most of my watches from individuals here in the CONUS these days, great prices, no customs problems, and 3 or 4 day turnarounds....No problem so far...

If you're happy, go for it. Hobbies are supposed to make you happy.

Everywhere I call say they do not do it in house.

I even looked up the only AR coating fabrication company in my state and they turned me down as well..

Try the biggest eyeglass store you can find in your area. I think it depends on your local shop--I've had one store (same parent company) tell me no way and another sure no problem. I bet it would help if you go in when one of the kids needs an eye exam, or you need a pair of glasses/sungalsses etc.--the implied quid pro quo. My 51 got done perfectly for $48 with a choice of several coatings.

Thanks for your insight, Frank, but here's a short version of the subtext of this thread, in case you're not familiar: Paul was a very solid dealer for a very long time until he tried to corner the high end PAM market, lost that gamble big time, and left 60% of RWG high and dry. After a wierd time during which it was unclear whether or not Paul was even running his site, it looks like he's had a decent if not perfect record and may be trying to earn back business by offering some pretty amazing deals. Apparently, some RWG old timers, well aware of the valuable information available here about buying reps, are giving him another shot. We're trying to determine if a bargain is a bargain in the case of paul. We know we'll have only ourselves to blame if Paul takes our money and then starts posting semi-coherent insults along with pictures of his pool.

I'm willing to cut paul some slack on his paypal problems--he tries to be a volume dealer so, just by the law of averages, he's bound to run into a customer that files a dispute.

Before you get to subdials and movement's etc, you should ask yourself, "Can I pull off owning a 38K watch." If you can, nobody will notice the subdials are 1.03mm too far apart, or that the movement is a Venus 175. They'll just think it's real even if they know what a vacheron is. If the answer is no, everyone will think you're wearing a fake, even if you were wearing a gen.

Nobody who knows me would believe I could afford a $40,000 watch or would buy one if I could, so I just don't buy reps of watches that expensive.

He can do both ways.

You can present him a drawing (I made an AutoCad drawing of the buckle layout with the text on an approximate font) or you can show him a picture. Or both!

Now this is the beautiful part: if some type (character, formatting, etc...) on the drawing is somewhat less accurate he will copy it from the picture.

Cheers,

M.

Sounds great! Thanks for the info....

You don't get me right...

I know very well how the regular pricebuilding works - but thats not always the case...

For example: If one has a Omega SMP from the legendary batch in good or even new condition ?

These pieces are unique meanwhile - why should one discount them ? That would be not very clever...

That's what marketing text is all about. If you feel your watch or package is unique, you should explain why in your offer, e.g.: "This is NOT the same SMP offered by our dealers. This watch is from the legendary batch that has the correct hands and is in mint condition. Also, I am including a genuine dial-- therefore my price of XXX USD is firm."

If people don't understand why the price is different it's because they don't understand why your watch is worth more than "stock" pieces-- and proboably wouldn't be willing to pay more whether they have to PM you for the price or see it in your offer.

Personally, back when pricing on RWG was optional in the members section, if I didn't see a price listed in an offer I clicked the "back" button, never to return...

Also, maybe because I'm such a poor negotiator or maybe because only a few buyers care whether their watches are improved from 98% to 99%, I've never gotten back the money I've put into heavily modded watches.

It's an interesting question. However I think that our hobby may come to an end because of other factors to do with the Chinese tightening of laws and their ever growing economy.

Very true, but as long as there is a huge gap between manufacturing costs and sale prices of luxury goods (which there will always be) there will always be a market for fakes. As long as there is a market for fakes there wil be makers of fakes. As china's economy becomes less "wild west" rep making will move to some other developing economy...Hell, maybe a future version of subs will be called Baghdad Best.

Unfortunately the cutout for the crown is much larger... and the lever is engraved and waaaaaaaay thicker.

Absoltely--but my hope is that they'll plug the "current" crown and lever cutouts into the new size and shape when they program their CNC machines for the next generations of H series guards. At least part of the work is done....

Congrats to you and mom, and best wishes for a healthy, happy boy!

Awesome Work!!!

A general question for your engraver: How do they go about copying a font? Do they need to know what the font is or can they "copy" a picture? I assume if they copy a picture they need to know the depth of the engraving, right? (Not going to copy your excellent idea--just thinking about some work I need to do on a Muller.)

Thanks in advance...

I just did a quick and dirty measuring job on Photoshop--the crown guard is about 9mm wide and the crown is about 2.6mm--on an actual size pic of the gen the guard is about 9mm and the crown is about 2.4mm.

I remember reading somehwere that the H series guards are 9mm wide, so if the measurements are close hopefully we have the first of many accurate H series guards.

I bought a Bell and Ross on 20th.

I went ahead and used WU for the so called "so called ultimate" and so called "so called perfect" LV's. We'll see if Paul can earn back a little of my business.

That's a faux tourbillon, not worth $2K

I don't know whether the one the OP posted is faux or not but there are many watches on the bay that feature Sea Gull's new real center tourbillon for about 2k. That is a real tourbillon, and when prices come down to the level of the flying tourbillon it'll be worth buying a rep powered by one. My vote for first one is of cousrse a Muller:

1111.bmp

Since I've started getting every asian movement serviced, all my watches work the same whether they're ETA or Asian.

Keep in mind that watchsmithing prices vary widely. I found a local watchsmith who services 7750's for 50 bucks w/ a 72 hr turn around. My regular watchsmith charges 140 and keeps them for a week. It's a pain to bring a watch to one watchsmith for movement work and another for mods--but I save a lot of money.

Wow...beautiful crown. That's a rare, crisply machined detail you do not find on many sub reps. This one has the rarer dial printing though. My search has been for the dial with the more common spacing between Oyster Perpetual Date. Might be worth a second look though. Hey, these are cheap enough, I can buy both and switch the crowns!!!!!! Someone please stop me!!!

OK...you guys convinced me to play Wo-Mart Roulette... I ordered both, & will swap the dials and crowns then sell a super crazy sale so called "less-than-perfect but cheap" version to someone who is not insanely anal retentive like me. Even if I decide to throw on an OEM insert I'll be in it for way less than an MBW when all is said and done.

One question--when pauls says "deep rehuat" on his "so called perfect" version is he being accurate? It looks maybe slightly better than previous CN versions but not as nice as the TW bests. What do you all think?

Thanks for that - I've tried asking sellers to remove the back, but all seem very reluctant! I'll keep an eye on the one at RWI - I'm bidding on a couple at the moment so will see how they go first. Thanks again.

My local watchsmith works out of a high end antique/vintage watch and clock shop--he says you have to be very careful w/ the clocks that have angelus movements these days. Many people have figured out that the clocks were often made with various 8-day movements so may of the clocks w/ the 240 (or whatever the one Panerai uses is numbered) ave been stripped of them to sell separately and then replaced with a different movement. He also told me that the pars needed to convert them can be twice as expensive as the movement themselves.

Granted, he tries to talk me out of every major project I propose, but this info makes sense to me--Panerai has given dealers of these clocks a windfall...$20 clocks now going for $3-400.

Yuck!

You may be too new to remember, but back in the days when the top of the line PAMs had undecorated movements and dime thin crowns, when we all would have killed for LV's we'd [censored] loudly about today, some of those would have been regarded as cutting edge rarities.

Narikaa's post reminds me how jaded we've become by 98% PAMS and "perfect" rolexes--in a way I think we were more sensible back then--when I wore watches like those I got called out as often as I do when I wear my high end panerais and mullers, which is never, and I blew off a lot more flaws than I do today---and had a far more varied collection as a result.

I deninitely do not miss the days when every chrono was an idiotic day-date, though.

On wearing a Rolex:

I have had my watch on my wrist on the following occasions;

Immediately after the birth of each of my three children when I held them for the first time.

Twice when I thought I might die; once while a volunteer fireman in NJ in a house fire and the second while rafting the Gauley.

When I shook hands with G. Bush Sr., B. Clinton and R. Giuliani.

When I caressed my wife, my lover and my girlfriend. Each separately and never all in the same day.

When I was arrested.

When I was promoted to Vice President and when I was told to close our plant and let go all our employees because our site was being closed and moved..[/quote]

This guy is totally immune to irony--If you wrote 100 drafts trying to prove you were a self-aggrandizing, elitist, Wal-Mart brand-sentiment slinging [censored] you couldn't do it more successfully than this guy did without intending to. My fav is bragging about wearing a rolex when he went to tell the working stiff's their jobs had beeen outsourced.

I'm sure he's a nice guy in person, but he should think before he writes...