archibald

So I have one of the sweet 222's on the way from EL, upon which I will stick a Tommy crown, a watchmen cyclops, and a davidsen AR sapphire. I also know that he date hole is going to bug the [censored] out of me.

I also have one of the 1st gen 104's, a sort of a mediocre rep I never put on, which also uses the chinese 21J. So...can I set the date on the 222, swap the case w/ the 104, and keep the newly holeless bad boy on a winder? If I ever need to change the date again, how hard would it be to crack the back and set the date w/ a little screwdriver or a high-tech bent paper clip or something? Would I have to remove the movement to do this?

Yes, I know I should just buy a gen, or live with it, or see a shrink, get a life, etc. But aside from the troubling psychology of this intended project, is it technically feasable?

nice one ..

You guys have better luck than me. I've only worn a rep into an AD once, by accidident (was picking up dinner from the Maggiano's next door decided to pop into the watch store forgetting to take off my 168) and was instantaniously called out by the WIS ninny behinf the counter. I had no choice but to [censored] with him, berating him for having the nerve to sell $500 watches for $6000. Still, it was not pleasant.

My advice: always wear one of your gens to the store. If you don't have a gen, pocket the watch. If you do wear a rep and they say they love your watch, there's a much beter chance they know it's a rep and are not dumb enough to call out a potential customer, than it is you fooled them.

So I assume the rep case can take gen dial without modification.

If so, this probably is another group buy material

I assuming so on a rep w/ this level of accuracy. But I won't know until I have a watch and dial in hand. I'd be happy to be the guinea pig--and let you guys know if it fits.

BTW: 2 more buyers and we're good to go!!

@CM: You know, that's one thing I forgot to ask, but I'll do it ASAP and then repy to your PM and post here.

How about color of dial ?

I am also totally pumped

Admin, as one of the originators of this idea and a fellow FM afficionado, there's no way you're going to miss out-- shoot me a PM when you have a minute and you and I will work something out on payment and customs.

4fun: I have you down for white dial. I think I read that black is also available--I'll look back through my PM's. If you want a black dial version please contact me.

Also, I might be able to source some OEM dials in different colors They are expensive, and randomly available, but worth it. ( They have a wine dial/rose gold Casablanca down @ the local Neiman Marcus-- unbelievably stunning. And $9800...w/ discount)

OK, my brothers--It's nut cuttin' time. All the details have been hashed out, more than enough buyers say they're ready to go, and my PM box is cleared. The base model (2824 Yellow Gold) is $1249 including EMS.

A few final details:

1) Because he is one of the best in the biz, our delaer has managed to score a limited number of rose gold pieces. These are from a different source on his end, so the price for 18k RG is an additional $135.

2)Decorated swiss 2892's are available on a custom-installed basis. In addition to another $300, these pieces will require 10-14 days for movement sourcing and installation.

3)For US and UK buyers, customs issues are the dealer's problem. I am working on a way to extend that offer to EU buyers. If that's you, please tell me where you live when you PM and I will advise. Theiving mailmen in our countries are our problem.

4)The "base" models in both colors of gold will ship 2-3 days after all 10 buyers have paid.

Ok, there it is...but can I ask you guys a favor? I have to save a bunch of PMs for another ongoing project and thus I can't clear my box completely. I believe every possible question about the watch and the deal has been asked and answered in this thread. Please PM only if you have firmly decided to buy a watch and are ready to pay. Otherwise please ask any questions you have in this thread. I will check it often.

I don't know about you guys, but I am totally pumped...

Just stay away from solid gold in reps... nobody can be 100% what we get. But we pay a premium... often for nothing...

That's partially true, I guess. I have no problem w/ solid gold--as long as a trusted dealer says "solid 18k gold." what I do not understand is what anyone would pay extra for solid 14k in a rolex. Rolexes are 18k which looks different from 18K. Why have a heavier rep if it won't fool the eye first?

You guys are being pretty post-modern today--a thread about a thread about a thread. Personally, I've had one problem with one dealer--out of well over 10 grand's worth of transactions, 95% of which were completely unremarkable which is how they should be. That success rate is 100% attributable of the rep forums, which were started so that rep collectors could discuss reps...and rep dealers. Anyone who sells watches on these forums should be prepared to have their wares--and their business practices--scrutinized. That system is what makes the majority of transactions go smoothly.

On the other hand, anyone who buys watches here should be prepared to have their business practices discussed by dealers. If the dealers find their new subforum useful, groovy. I don't see how anyone can have a problem with it.

Pricing: I don't know about you guys, but as soon as i saw four dealer-started threads in 24 hrs. abut customs issues, my first thought was "Translation: about $15 a watch..." Crackdowns always suck.

on here know, I was a single parent with four children for many years -- I did not accept a dime from her.

... a basic understanding of the counterfeit industry should make it clear why the deliberate flaw concept is impossible. These people are independent, diverse and disconnected - and the players change from day to day. There is no person, or group, with whom a Chinese Official could work out a deal, or reach an understanding with.

Bill

I don't think anyone would assert there is any kind of codified or even formal "deal" between anyone. As I understand it the relationship is this: "If we catch you making reps that do not afford us this (im)plausible deniability, we will shut you down." It's up to the "players,"whomever they are on a given day, to decide if they'll push their luck, and what happens to people who do push their luck it depends upon the dilligence of the Chinese authorities.

Frankly, I just can't think of response to the "impossibility" of intentional flaws. It's just contrary to reality. "Those trees may look green, but here, let me explain why they're not..." As numerous posters have pointed out: You make MBW's for 10 years and you never notice Rolex starts with an "R?"

It would be interested to hear your thoughts about why the Chinese are incapable of making a correct crown in any of the 167 versions of 44mm PAMs, but western amateiurs can get it right.

It seems to me you can argue why repmakers include flaws in their reps, but to argue that they don't, because the practice doesn't fit your understanding of the chinese approach to international intellectual property law, is just silly.

Marco - hate to tell you mines been done for ages - Got it on a nice whisky colour 24/24 strap with a Pre A logo buckle in PVD!!! One thing I am curious about is if you have removed the small lens that is on the movt covering the date. Your mag looks huge compared to mine!!

Congrats marco--excellent workmanship and a beautiful watch!

OK, Here we go

That strap turns that watch from "I wouldn't be caught dead in it" to "well, add another one to the list." Excellent taste. Wear it well

Excellent post, Bill, but maybe a slight clarification is in order: Granted, there's a 51% chance I was hung over when they covered international trademark law, and as you point out the central violation of infringement is creating potential confusion between a trademarked product and a product not manufactured or licenced by the holder of the trademark, but that being said, in real life trademarks are protected far more agressively than your explanation would indicate. A recent favorite of mine is the 25-year-old fight between between the Beatles and Apple computer.. The Chinese know this, and there is probably not a person in China who would argue that "officne" gives anyone relief from any international trademark issue.

As I have posted numerous times, I have it straight from the "horss's" mouth (not a rep dealer, but a former colleague who makes her living trying to convince the Chinese to protect intellectual property, although many dealers will tell you the same thing) that the "intentional" mistakes have to do with the relationship between the rep makers and the chinese government. The chinese government insists upon some sort of deniability, even though it is utterly implausible deniability. Why? Because they're smart.

When the Americans, or the French, or the Swiss send someone over to [censored] at some chinese functionary, a LV Sub, heremes bag, or pair of Jeans in tow, the functionary in front of them invariably says "replica? I see no replica..." They know all about trademarks. They just don't care because enforecement of trademarks is one of their wild cards in trade negotiations. When concessions are made, they'll admit the problem. When more concessions are made: they'll make known their intent to enforce, and so on and so on.

There's deliberate mistake and deliberate mistake, though.

One is putting Polfy on your cases so they don't get seized and the other is placing the Omega logo less than a mm too high so people will buy the next gen as well. One of those is likely, the other is plain conspiracy theory.

This, I agree with. The intentional mistakes tend to transcend versions and models. The Omega logo is a perfect example of a mistake mistake.

Yes, the 1815 should be an easier replica, but that does not mean it will be accurate. I do have a flyback crono with a Lemania movement and it is as good as it gets for replicas...but not even close to the gen. The subdials are at 3-9 whereas in the gen are at 3:45 and 8:15 (or the other way around)...that means that they would have to rework the whole movement to accomodate the change...(Lange's movement originality!). I consider it a very nice fantasy watch (*not a popular brand like Rolex) and I use it often. Is it a great replica watch? yes. Would I buy another Lange replica? no. I considered (and wrote it off) as part of my learning curve on replicas. You are right, leave the finish to the germans...maybe one day there would be a german replica maker...though I doubt it because I picture a german jail like a very cold and damp place with a big guy named Otto who would make you his frau every other night...

Still Lange's are Lange's...just in their own category!

Cheers

Alex

Yeah, the decision to try to rep the 1815 flyback was another example of the wacky decisionmaking process of the repmakers. Why spend all that effort on a watch that is so blatantly unreppable--even if they were inclined to modify the movement a la the daytona, they couldn't do it on the seagull "Venus" 175.

If anyone expects the fit and finish on a lange rep to approach even that of an oem Panerai, let alone a genuine lange, they're going to be sorely dissapointed. I guess a super-anal retentive with skills could buy the ss version of the rep, refit and polish the parts by hand the way some people do w/ Rolexes, and then have a high quality plating job done, but even that's a lost cause. Anyone who knows you can't buy a Lange down at the Fashion Time in the Mall will know it's a rep in 3 seconds.

Similar experience, once you had a real L&S in your hands, nothing comes even close. Lange & Sohne is probably one of the leading upper upper tier brands. Their movements are just INCREDIBLE. And it is impossible, at least today, to replicate the finish and attention to details these pieces show. I had two in my hands years ago in Zurich and the memory still lingers... Pricing is steep, an 1815 can go for $13-15K and a Langematik for over $17-20K. They released a limited edition (Basel 2006) perpetual crono in platinum...I'm salivating all over my keyboard...(where are my pills???? )

Alex

Funny, kruzer00 and I were discussing this exact thing yesterday--there is no question that L&S is the fit and finish champion of the world--leave it to the germans. But for those of us who money actually has meaning, I'd also love to see a rep of their new three hander. Every detail on that rep has been repped to a very high degree of fit and finish on previous lange reps--the second hand, the central recess on the dial, and even a very similar 3 piece case. C'mon makers--this one's a no brainer!

Please, don't tell me you actually believe the whole Deliberate Mistake billiards. I had you down as fairly smart.

Pugster, I had you down as fairly smart... although you're still a noob so we'll let you slide.

Aside from the existence of intentional flaws being obvious on its face(the Chinese are too dumb to make a 1.9mm, 45 degree beveled crown, and require westerners to get it right on try #3?), numerous "in the know" people with direct connections to factories have confirmed numerous times that numerous high reps have at least one deliberate mistake.

This was a hot button issue back when the first super accurate reps started coming out-- dozens of threads back on the old RWG. Go read them.

LOL. That must be one heck of a fun time.

It sounds like you have earned it; enjoy, sir.

First, thanks for your service--and wear those watches well!!

I'm curious, do those packages go through iraqi customs, the US Military, or both? My next door neighbor worked for the CPA, and from what he says about the iraqi government, I'm not sure I'd trust my new LV Sub being handled by some iraqi customs official...

do you guys really not know who the dealer is or are you joking??? seems obvious. why so secret?......i guess if it's a secret i won't tell..... i've known for awhile...... i will tell you that it's not paul!! i can see it now......."CRAZY GOLD SALE NOW" LOL

An update: Yes, flav everyone who has PMed knows who the dealer is.

Lim: I know I wrote a reply, sorry if it didn't arrive...I'll send again.

Chronus: I have you as part of the 10...is this right?

EL informs me that he is travelling often--as soon as he replies to my last PM i will update immediately.

Sorry guys...yellow gold only. I prefer rose gold (and most muller gens are in rose gold). The upside is i have before me the 2002 catalog, which has this watch, and it says "offered in stainless steel and all colors of gold" which for muller means yellow, rose, red, and white.

I can live with those flaws. What I really care is the case. If it's like 2nd generation case, then it really sucks

I agree: 1st gen case, I'm in. 2nd gen, no go. flavor flav, can you let us know when yours arrives?

Chuck Norris verses Balboa. Now that would have been a movie.

They would have to call it "The Monotone Chronicles"

I hope people don't start buying in to this WW III Talking point that's being pumped out of the right wing bung hole. The other night Jon Stewart had a scary little montage the of all the usual suspects--Coulter, Novack, O'reilly, various FOX heads, etc saying the words World War Three--whenever you get that kind of repetition, you're listening to a concerted PR op. But why? Why would the Administration and their pals want people to wonder if Armegeddon is just around the corner? Easy. November 2006. Getting out the right wing vote. They're afraid even the dimmest wingnuts what the rest of us figured out a long time ago and won't be able to tear themselves away from Dr. Phil to go vote on election day. But not if it's WW III! See, the last thing we want to do going into WW III is have anyone other than [censored] Cheney with an iron grip on power! And don't forget: Jaysus ain't coming back until WW III gets going. So if you want to make sure you get the express train to paradise, you better do your part to make sure WW III really happens. Now get out there and vote WW III! Vote Republican!

etaworldgoods is apparently watchhonpo's US seller and is reliable--but that's not the problem w/ the swiss datona. Even if the movement works dispite the 11 gears, and that's a big if, your watch will be an instant tell for anyone who knows wht the subdial spacing is supposed to look like. Nothing you can do about it. Why spend $600 to fix a flaw only WIS know about only to create another that a WIS will spot in half a second?

Sadly, the only way to get a super-accurate "modern" daytona is to go through the headache of building a pre-2000 frankenwatch.

I never used to like the vintage daytonas but after a year of trying to put an El Primero franken together, they're lookingbetter and better

Power reserves are pretty useful, and they tend to look purdy too.

I've always been puzzled by the day-night complication. I mean, unless you've spent the last 40 hours holed up in a hotel room doing coke, does anyone really need one?

Admin i would have thought that you'd be the one to take it off their hands...and @thedoc any comments on the jules audemars? i have had my eye on this one for a while and never really saw a review (at least not recently)

I know way less than half what thedoctor & thomasng know about AP's but the Jules was my first high end rep--EL's ETA version. The rose gold plating was excellent, and aside from theproblems caused by the date window position, it's a very very accurate rep. They even made a decent stab at the rotor...

On the NF: I like that there's no space between the A and P issue on the faldo, and the brushing look supurb in the pics. Expert's: are there any front-side glaring faults that would make a nitpicker like me get persnickity about this one?

As per the other thread, the blue dial is a fantasy--the closest corresponding gen says "Firenze" not "GMT" on the dial and has an engraving of the original Panerai store on the back. Yet another episode of "The Wacky World of Repmakers:" Everyone hollers for a blue dial PAM and, out of the dozen or so models of genuine blue dialed watches, they rep.....none of them.

Love that strap, though, Swdivad!

Any late breaking on the Muller?

Funny you should ask, I was going to update this this evening: We're in a holding pattern for the time being: The buyer of watch #10 is rustling up the dough, and the dealer and I are working out the fine print-e.g. what happens in the event of a customs issue, acceptable payment methods,etc--if anyone else is interested now's the time to contact me....

QUOTE(narikaa @ Jul 4 2006, 01:54 PM)

Copper

LOL! Nope, and it's not a day-date chrono either..