archibald

Excellent Review and pictorial!!! This comparison confirms my belief that aside from the bezel and CG, they can't really make subs any closer to gen until they make new cases to fit the 2892 and solve the crown/rehaut issue once and for all. If they do make a new case w/ even the asian 2892 and a better-toothed bezel, it would be great out of the box, and also able to be modded into a watch so close to 1:1 you'd have to have a loupe built in your eye to tell the diff on the wrist...

Even if that pic is of a J series, what relation with the I rep?

Here is a pic of a "I" series:

To make the things even more confused:

2 - There have been reports that the J series actually have the "L SWISS MADE L" close to the 6. Ok. But you tell that the rep is I series (on the caseback, I suppose). And that makes the "L SWISS MADE L" placement inaccurate.

Or not?

BTW, the BB102xxxx number would even suggest a D series...

You may be right, my friend. I assumed by the date of the TZ post that linked to that page that the the watch was an I series--they could have posted pictures of a J or an earlier model--so I violated my own suggestion!

As far as the missemilation or case numbers, I have no idea...not a good sign though, if it is wrong. That link says 2600.

It seems to me though that on the wrist, the watch is exceptionally accurate and can be made as close as any rep made to 1:1 w/ just a few very common mods--especially since (either earlier or J) there are 4000 genuine pieces w/ the L Swiss close to the 6.

White Gold is a mix of gold and palladium and/or nickle...

Nearly all white gold jewelery is Rhodium plated. Rhodium is related to platinum and palladium and is similar in characteristic color. As a plating material it is HARDER and much more durable than gold.

Unplated "white" gold usually causes more allergy reactions due to nickel leeching than plated...

Unplated "white" gold is also "cheapskate" white gold as it is cheaper (Rhodium is roughly 5 times more expensive than PLATINUM, and 10 times more expensive than Palladium)...

I would like to see where any jeweler or watchmaker proclaims that their "white" gold is unplated... and their reasons for not doing so.

The only situation where you can achieve the "proper" "white" gold color without plating is with a very high ratio of palladium (1/2 the price of gold, where's my discount?) or nickel (where's my bigger discount and where's the Doc? my wrist is rotting...)

Somewhere in the archives there's a thread in which I quoted from a Watch Time article on white gold, including a list of companies that rhodium plate--almost all of the companies mentioned exclusively use paladium gold (rolex I believe uses a small amount of platinum in all their gold, more in their white gold) and companies that rhodium plate are in the minority . I only remember the two watch companies that I was interested in at the time, FM and JLC: neither rhodium plate as a trip to the AD or at least a quick google image search will demonstrate.

.

<cough> "White" Gold <cough> is RHODIUM PLATED.

Gio, what's up with those endlinks bro?

Some WG watches are rhodium plated. You'll have to research whether or not Rolex does it. FM, for example, does not....

thank you .. i now stand corrected and pleasantly so.. i should do more research as now "it's all good".. ok lello commented he will have DW.. i have a gen. crown and it's going for relume as soon as the DW is available.. if one thing good came from my blunder it's 'learning" to do the footwork before posting as i am sure this is the first time it's happened.. so i will learn form the members that have gone down the same road.. .. and now can pass it on..

so do you guy's think the 11 marker is a bit off or is that an original genuine flaw.. or am i crossed eyed??

I wasn't coming after you Lani, just making a general observation based on almost 5 years around here and unintenionally spreading misinfo more than once myself by not following the golden rule of rep evaluating: "My memory is OK, but a pic of a gen is the final word."

I think the 11 is a little off at high zoom, but probably not on the wrist, and even better is probably fixable during the course of a The Zigmeister relume.

Actually it's a little of both. It's not pixellation, per se, but rather ink absorption into the vinyl. When coombined w/ the intentional misshapen letters as per OEM it creates a blurry look w/ the cyclops, which is why I've always said that these are really best on 1665's. I wouldn't put one on a 1680, and I designed and constructed these DW's. The good news is that silk screening would produce a 1:1 overlay and would also allow a VERY rigid medium to be used. I just could not find a screen printer in the states who would work at the tolerances needed and/or do a small run cost effectively, so I had to go with a hybrid process using thermal transfer printing and professional quality inkjet printing.

I have the vector file, of course, already aligned and in several versions, exact copies of different OEM DW's. I also have the capability (which I recieved after making these overlays which were cut by hand) to cut a perfect ring to .01mm accuracy. I also have the perfect, rigid material to do more DW's than MBW has ever made. Just can't print the f***ers...

If anyone has access to a professional screen print shop 'll supply the material (already tested for ease of instalation, rigidity, and UV screen print ink compatitbility) and do the cutting. You just tell me where to send the vectors.

If anyone wants to do a brushed metal version I offer my heartfelt prayers--everything is doable easily except for the brushing. If anyone can send me a radially brushed piece of metal that I would use in my 1680, I'll immediately send you the vectors and cut them out in exchange for 1 overlay...

As far as installation goes. between my watchsmith and I, we've installed a dozen or more of these floppy overlays with absolutely no difficulty on a variety of watches (I've made overlays for my overseas, nautilus and others). There's a trick to it, a trick that is way too hard to explain in writing but I'd be happy to help anyone who PM's me.

I don't want to speak for Star, but I suspect he means lots of little things--the weight, Rolex's proprietary gold color, the glow of the blue dial (rolex's prettiest, IMO), general fit and finish, etc.--all working together to make a gen immediately recognizable even side by side from the best rep.

Any updates on the new YM?

And the daytona, too?!?! I'm thinking we won't hear anything about anything till after CNY, but maybe Angus will drop by during the festivities...

Thanks!

...that's what I'm after - Sinister, with a touch of downright evil

So far I've found the whole PVD search a little on the evil side. Would it be correct to say that the color choice for this process is, like DLC, dark gray or slightly darker dark gray? I've been looking for a PVD process other than pretty-rare-these-days TiN that can match the TiN shade OP used for their early PVD watches. I've been getting conflicting infor from PVD shops: a TiAln guy told me "Got to do TiN." Another TiAlN guy told me "sure, I can match it." And a TiN guy told me he couldn't match it becausze it was a different kind of TiN on the OEM crown I gave him!! When I saw this thread I was kind of hoping that there was a way to color match w/ this process, but that's not the case, eh?

Nice 104! Thinking of ordering one myself

Slightly off topic... Found this pic on a gen forum.

Note the L Swiss Made L. I thought this was supposed to be a flaw on the older 104 reps.....

I wonder if that's a 48. Really off topic: that guy's wrist looks like a giant version of my sons wrist when he was a chubby 2 year old...

It would seem, based on the issue of the "L Swiss Made L" placement that the 164 (All of the other QC questions considered equal) would be the "Best" of the 3 out of the box. Save for the size of the Dots as dial markers and those could be possibly be addressed during a re-lume. As far as the "L Swiss..." issue on the 104, there seems to be some question about the "L kissing the butt of the 6, even on gens. The picture of the 104 on Timezone.com, Panerai reference, Contemporary, shows the "L Swiss" almost kissing the "6", plus the previous picture in this thread, could lead you down the Panerai Model Differentation road like with other models ( Slight odd-ball changes as yearly models evolve). This is one of the neat issues about Pams, always expect the unexpected.

Rogerwine

I agree, Roger, and I sense a classic RWG myth being born. The rep is of an I series piece so it appears to me that the 104 pictured here means the L SWISS is pretty high on the gen. It's always tempting to say that things we think ugly (which the "6 butt kissing" L siss certainly does) are innacurate (which in this case isn't). We ought to really just look at some pics of the watches actually being repped before we go and make pronouncements. I know I've sure been guilty of this.

Anyway, given those timezone pics, the 104 is definitely the most accurate of the 3. A DW, crown, and a lume and it's as good as you can make it.

edit: the crown.. The Zigmeister has moded the genuine crown to fit my 029 it is thinner and has more "teeth" refer to my post on bazonkers thread ..his 229 post.. i have pics of the genuine crwon.. as far as I know only The Zigmeister hs been sucsessful in modding the genuine crown to the rep. ... the CG if you can ever get a genuine .. can not fit..

Re: the CG: It's all about the length of the tube and stem, baby. What you want is the inside lip of the OEM crown to sit flush w/ the side of the case when the lever pushed the spring all the way, as per gen. In the experience of my local smith, who's fitted about 10 OEM crowns to both handwinds and autos, OEM CG's and Jimmy's fit w/o modification and stock rep CG's need to be milled on the underside to properly lock. If that's not an option, the tube and stem have to made longer which means that the above description of the lip can't be achieved. CG's that have been previously modded to fit palp crowns? Fugettabotit.

Beautiful watch indeed.

But up till today I am still very reluctant to get any of the APROO no matter if it is MBW or whatsoever simply becasue the flaw of the subdial arrangement is just too obvious. Any AP guy can spot it as fake immediately.

I don't mean to offend anybody, it is purely my personal problem.

Still hope one day the correct running second at 12 will come up, like they did it with the running second at 6 for the Daytona.

And correcting the subdial spacing like they did on the Daytona as well. I love the EOD AP... but sadly I could never wear it for professional reasons, which is a long story. Beautiful watch, Raymond!! Wear it well, especially since it has your aniversary for a serial!!!

My HBB Gold Mat is on its too. I'll post pictures when it gets here. I would love to have the RoseGold+Ceramic bezel too but it cost way to much.

Can you guys save a lazy ass a few clicks? Does the gen have a solid back? I've been waiting for a decent rep of one of the 2 or 3 gen HBB's that have solid cases since I have an irrational fear of stickers on movements.

Looks like a winner to me!!!

Oopps, missed this thread. The answer is that Muller has changed the lume over time and that it also depends on dial color--I have 4X casablanca dials 2 black, a salmon, and a white. The lume varies between them. One black looks almost all C1 the other mostly C3, the while looks all C3, the salmon almost all C1. Age may be a factor, but the good news is if muller really has changed the lume as it looks like they have, you can never get called out.

hey guys... this post is 8 months ago... the prices for ETA movements rised up 200% - 250%

a genuine SOPROD 2893-2 GMT (same in genuine Panerai) which i had offer for $229 would cost today approx $450

Wow...they should trade options on ETA movements in New York. I was depressed that I bought a 2893-2 for 10 bucks at a flea market and then had to shell out $160 in pats and labor to get it working. Now I'm not feeling so dumb.

I know the hands can be made to fit (or easily sourced). What I'm about to find out is whether or not the movement ring is also moddable since the above movement is going into a 2836 63 case.

If the cost of movements ever goes down or the chinese start making modules for their 2892's, someone could make a tidy little bundle selling movement rings for folks to swap out 2836's in PAMs and Rolexes.

I have a wakness for seagull Venus copy watches too and can't bring myself to sell any of my 5 (Patek 5090, Lange 1815, Pam 163, Muller chorono) even though they're all so inaccurate I never wear them.

BTW, isn't there a 40mm PAM powered by the venus 175? That'd be a cool rep since theoretically the subdial sapcing would be dead on.

I`ve been waiting for more then two years already, how much more?

I bet we'll have to wait for.........................ever. Unless they do the non-chrono version. I'm sadly 100% sure that a rep of a 2894 powered watch we shall never see. The good news is gen used monacos seem to be going for well under 2 grand, and since a decent rep would probably cost $400, it would hardly seem worth it.

I may have misspoken, but it was about 1 month away. Please PM David for more info.

If davidsen can improve the fit and finish of his products (check out the brushing, CG fit, and hands installation on the 082 above) a new 104 would be fantastic.

OK, lets do this.

I have talked to Lello about the printing side and that looks to be a runner. After all if his printer can get the numbers accurately lined up on a skinny datewheel then getting a simple Panerai dial printed properly will be a 'penalty kick'. So, don't be too concerned about the printing. If only Davidsen would get the engraving accurate then I don't care how badly his printing is carried out as, providing I can buy a dozen dials from him, I would just strip them and get then finished properly. However the engraving isn't looking too good.

The big question.......

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY CONTACT FOR GETTING ENGRAVING CARRIED OUT??? We are talking reasonably simple shapes at a fairly large size but the engraver needs to listen and understand that he shouldn't interpret anything, just copy the quirky lobsided shapes that the 'strange man' wants.....no improvements or smoothing out the curves etc. Can anyone suggest a CNC engraver? I have accurate 1:1 scans of the correct dial and loads of high resolution artwork but just need someone who can engarve simple shapes on brass. Doesn't sound too much but I haven't had any luck locally.

Are you sure lello's EU printer will print Panerai's name AND logo on a dial? If so, that's great!

There havet to be dozens of CNC shops in the states who could easily do this--and since there would be no branding on the dial there would be absolutely no trademark issues. If I had time to do it I would try Thomasnet. Your problem is going to be finding someone who will work in very small runs w/o killing you on setup fees which in my limited experience ordering CNC work is the significant part of short run jobs.

I also wonder if laser engraving is possible. That might be cheaper since setup costs would be lower. Just don't want to see this one go the way of the

Santos 100 Dial project...

OK, so they got the dial color wrong, which makles it a no-go for a lunatic like me, but sane people can rightly assume that anyone who knows what the dial color is supposed to be is going to bust you on the CG, crown, mag, and date font anyway.

The caseback is amazing. Absolutely first-rate. The fixed A's are a milestone. And the fit and finished looks like a major step forward.

We can only hope that this piece is a sign of things to come--I'd buy a 104 based on that watch in a heartbeat--since the crown and CG can be fixed on autos, all that baby would need is a lume, DW, and cyclops.

ON EDIT: Hmmmm...I'll have to think about this. The 36 nobody would believe I own, but I may be interested in one of these for my gen dial 003...

Z3....I didn't elaborate enough in my post. The reason I said it was stupid to think of putting the 7751 in the IWC is because it's an automatic movement with a rotor...it looks nothing like the hand wind movement in the IWC, therefore it would look very wrong behind all that glass!

Has someone independenly verified that the new 7751 has a real, working moonphase? That would make dozens of new reps possible!!

Barker Blacks certainy don't qualify as reasonably priced, but God knows what they'd cost if they were branded by one of the hot Italian companies. The closeup shows why I love great watches and great shoes--and craftsmanship at its finest, made by people who give a sh** about their jobs. Hand painted dial and hand stitched shoes ...