archibald

Now there's my kind of guy...c'mon by-tor: admit it. You bought that shirt to go with the watch....

PAM is also getting smarter. Better crown guards, engraving in between the lugs, changing the spelling on engraved bezels between 250 and 251, etc.

Pretty sson they're going to start putting holograms on the backs ...definitely true and a good observation. Richemont has some experience with their watches being repped, so we can expect more of this kind of stuff avery year. Actually, I dont mind it that much. I think our friends in China will be able to keep up with most of the obvious-on-the-wrist stuff....eventally. And my own perfectionism aside, I don't really give a rats ass about the unseen parts of the lugs or the backs of my watches. Since I don't get the "I brought my watch to Tourneau today" trip, who's going to see them? If Panerai can come up with stuff that makes rep as real scammers' lives miserable, more power to them.

Could someone please be so kind to list the flaws of this 212 so i know where to look?

Dial

--Markers point "inward" instead of "outward"

--lume area on hr and min hand too wide

--6 and 12 slightly too thick

CASE & GUARD

--"REG TM" too big (or the guard itself too small)

--Pushers slightly too long (could also be an illusion caused by a too-small guard)

BACK

--No OP or Serial #'s

--Incorrectly decorated movement

The only two I can't live with are the markers and the caseback engraving. When they fix those I'm in.

I have a Chronoswiss Tourbillon from Eddie Lee. It keeps excellent time and cost $599.

The big differnce between old and new is that the new one is a center turbillon which exists on a lot more gens than they flying tourbillon which is used on only one or two. If the prices come down on these babies we have a shot at seeing some really sweet reps. If tehy ever do wind up in reps it will be interesting to see which model they go into first.

Just the comparison that I've been looking for!

For a while, I thought that I would have to go buy a gen in order to make the comparison for myself...

I didn't know about the casebacks either but unless you're looking at side by side pics who's going to notice? Anyone who knows how thick panerais should be down to the millimeter will have already recognized your rep long before they stack it on top of their watch.

The crown guard problem is caused by the repmakers not making a new crown for the H series res--they just brushed the old ones.

Anyone who wants to take up this project please feel free to PM me--I've got way too much on my plate to persue a new project, but in the course of another project I've had a crash course in a few types of digital printing technologies, graphics issues, etc. and there are at least two I can think of that may work for this one. I'd can probably save whoever ends up taking this on some trial and error legwork.

A quick general question: I assume it's not to hard to erase the printing off of a dial, but is there a way to just remove the black printing and not the white underneath?

Man, you had me all excited. What's been fixed? The major flaw--markers, serial and OP numbers, lume area thickness on the hands, movement decoration--all look the same to me

I tend to agree with you. Normally a seller would claim the item was 100% genuine, verified etc, he does none of that. Unsurprisingly he hasn't responded to my offer of visiting an AD.

I don't know about you guys but I hate this kind fraud, the I-can't-help-it-if-prople-don't-have-rolex-movements-memorized excuse, more than I hate outright fraud. This guy's a scammer and a weasel. 99.99% of the earth's population is too busy working to pay their bills than become WIS's and this seller knows it.

balance spring....easier just to replace the movement i think.....but i can't find one.

The only solution other than replacing with a swiss 2892 (ouch!!) I can think of is to see if a 2824 fits--Based on my experience with mullers it probably will fit. They seem to be almost interchangable--I bet if you looked you could find a2824 powered version of your exact rep. Then you'll know it will fit.

It's damn frustrating, I know, going from a movement you paid extra for to a cheaper one--but that's the risk we all take when we pocket the cash we save buying reps w/ rep movements. When I replace a movement, I just count the money I'm still saving off the gen.

It looks like the black panda dials have the concentric circles, the silver one does not.

Anyone know what the non-panda/silver metal/blue hands gen is made out of--white gold, i assume? That's the one they should have repped if they couldn't plate with rose gold.

Anyway--as far as the gold and subdial swirls go, who's going to call you out on a IWC? IWC's are like panerai's IMO--the only people who know what they hell they are are never going to be fooled by a rep anyway.

I love the PO chrono...but It's definitely got love-hate written all over it.

When I tried one on, I (briefly) considered selling my Master Hometime to buy one--the main problem with it is that it may be the most beautiful, least versitile watch on the planet.

The good news if you hate it is--you probably won't have to see too many pics of the rep posted here because they'll never be able to get the subdial spacing right until the glorious day some chinese rep factory owner goes bonkers and tries to rep the el primero.

I usually hate the clunky sport RO's, but this one is gorgeous.

From the examples of high end CNC engraving I've seen on the web, the back should be a snap for the top factories, and there are $60 reps that have crown-rotated bezels.

Another vote for a rep of this one...

I thought most of the problem with the Daytonas was that all of the subdials were shifted, not just the seconds....

It will be interesting to see how this one plays out

ON EDIT: Somday maybe I'll learn how to count to 30.

Looks good but it seems that Paul does not accept Paypal.... :/

Looks like much better quality, fit and finish, than previous versions but I'm still on the line: the subdial configuration is a dead giveaway. Man, if they put out a PAM with the wrong subdial configuration people would be calling for the execution of the repmakers responsible--and fewer people know panerais than know AP's.

First of all, it is possible that Jimmy sent you the wrong gasket...you may want to check w/ him to be absolutely sure.

But more likely, your smith suffers from repitis, a common affliction infecting watchsmiths. Most smiths suffer from repitis to a certain degree (mine won't touch crystals--if I want a crystal removed I have to take the bezel to a different smith accross town, who wont touch any chinese movements at all). The collector must be paitient with those infected: probably 99.99% of the fake watches they've been asked to work on are $20 pieces of crap bought on some street corner. You have to explain to them the different level of reps, about CNC machines, that the chinese use real stainless and saphire and even swiss movements identical to those used by Panerai and muller. Even then, some of the more gravely ill won't believe you or won't care, gripped by an irrational predjudice against fairly priced watches or terminally paranoid--convinced you are a secret agent for Rolex checking to see if watchmakers working from the back of cheap jewelry stores will agree to work on fake watches.

In short, this guy sounds like he's got it bad--I'd move along without wasting time arguing w/ him.

Pug is right. The other thing to bear in mind is that even if you have a direct swap you should be aware that you may not be able to swap out the Aswian dateweheel for the Swiss. THis was the case on the Breitling CHrono.

If you were talking about movement parts, I can say w/ certainty that it's a no go on the date whee. If you meant case parts: the dial wont work (because of the date position), but everything else should.

Shameless bump, but very curious to see how this one is working out...

So far so good --I think a 2824 probably has arrived, but it will be up to the buyers if they want to post reviews, of course. To my surprise the vast majority of customers are going "for the gold" so to speak, ordering the most accurate version w/ the decorated movement. Because of the lag time for those movements to be installed I don't think anyone has recieved theirs yet.

I believe there are only yellow gold 2824 movement watches left in both black and white dial, Rose gold is also available in 2892 powered watches w/ either dial color. I have no idea how much longer the dealer will offer the group price though, so if anyone is interested please contact me. The 2824 can ship immediately, BTW.

I have never understood this MBW stuff. This is a watch that if it showed up in a replica review without being touted as "OEM upgradeable" would have most of the guru's here laughing at it's imperfections. From what I've seen, the basic CN Sub has far fewer flaws than the legendary MBW. Yeah, I know feel is the difference but so what if the detail flaws are so glaring?

I'm with you--sort of. A modded MBW will be better than a modded any-other-version because of the MBW cases and their ability to take OEM inserts without making them smaller. You have to ask yourself if the increase in accuracy a modded MBW will give you is worth the extra dough youll spend. For some it's worth it and others are fine with the out of the box accuarcy of the latest subs. All are happy, and that's point of hobbies.

I wasn't saying the trend is going down yet, just that the high end manufacturers think it is begining to peak and will track back downward. Of the 'haute horology" manufacturers, very few caught the wave of the trend (Chronoswiss and IWC come to mind) and of the mainstream manufacturers, Breitling seems to have ridden it into the beach.

I guess I'm just an old fart but 42 mm is about a maximum for me. Even my beloved Breitling GT looks a bit grotesque to me at times.

Actually they seem to be hedging their bets, or at least settling on a narrower range of sizes--the malkler models--36mm to 38mm--are getting bigger, and the largest models are either getting smaller or being offered in more than one size. JLC has cranked up their dress watches to 40mm, and AP has increased the size of the RO, etc. My 2006 books have fewer 43-47mm watches than last years' books.

I bet they're going to settle on 39-42mm for most watches.

If you get called out it will be from someone that is more of a freak than we are here. Congrats, wear it proudly.

The 120 is my favorite PAM--and for the money the rep is an outstanding value. But I'm not going to get one until they improve the dial, since no one is more of a freak than I am. The 120 dial should look exactly like the new blue GMT dial( grayish-blue w/ brushed main dial, "swirled" subdial) except w/ the correct printing of course. The mag and, I bet, the date wheel can be fixed.

The 40mm PAMS are damn near 1:1--it's a shame they didn't give the dial the attention those gorgeous cases deserve.

Another vote for white.

I say black, since black is sportier to my eye--a black dial combined w/ the design of the RO makes this about as versitile of gold watch as you can get.

I assume this version sports the same flaws as discussed on the SS version--in addition to the lack of gold stamps on the back which I assume the gen has.

Still, if the plating on this is decent, it goes on the list.

d@#$, 36mm---no can do on my too-big wrist, but maybe they'll improve the jumbo or rep the new 40mm RO.

Dorm room furniture for the hip hop generation.

Personally, except for that little food department by the checkout where you can get those addictive little cardamom biscuits for a buck a bag, I think IKEA is the world's biggest marketing scam (OK-looking scan-modernist furniture at Wall-Mart furniture quality and twice the price) but at least your IKEA has a "coworker" with great taste in watches--at mine they just scowl at you as they give punch-in 7/8 the pieces you need for your kid's shelf.

If you like that style of furniture--check around the nearest big city for a conignment shop. Ms. A's furniture tastes are IKEA-like, but the guy at the store she shops at gets slightly used versions of the furniture that IKEA copies at about the same price IKEA sells their s***. Sure, you're not going to get it today, and you won't have the honor of putting it together yourself...

I'm a little angry right now at a couple of people talking negativly about this watch to perspective buyers and possibly wrecking Rubys group buy...This is pretty poor form.

Surely there is some etiqutte between dealers...

This is just the way it goes--the same thing happened (although less overtly) in the muller group by thread. The way I see it, it's just like any other business--you just deal with it. You should verify with pictures which movement is in this watch with pictures or at least how you know it's the new 7750--I think there are two asia 7750's ehich beat at 28800--one that The Zigmeister says is pretty good and another that there are some reports of reliability problems.

The "perfectest" sub still costs too much money, IMO--I understand tyou'd have to take the old MBW case, do the crown guards, then use jos's dial, crysal, and bracelet plus an OEM crown, tube, and insert (which will set you back about a grand unless you can do the work yourself) and even then you'd still have a watch a rolex WIS would call out in 2 seconds because of the imperfect dial and general fit and finish.

What I decided to do was buy one of the new subs, throw on an OEM tube,crown, and pearl and deal with the fact that only 99.99% of the people n earth will think it's real.