TeeJay

I have seen where some use it to be funny but wondered if that meant the perp was banned?

Yup.

What does one do to get banned from rwg? The sire is pretty laid back I can't imagine.

Threatening Admin, trying to sell frankens (purchased from members here) as gens on eBay... Doesn't happen often, but those're two examples which spring to mind.

I would if I could, I've just got a lot on my plate at the moment, and not even enough cash to pay my own bus fair at the moment, so I won't be able to make it, but I hope everyone attending has a great time

I'd say go with WatchEden, so that's one vote for each dealer

To answer your question, no, it doesn't matter, I'm sure they all have access to the same stock...

Good to see you back

There was a really cool one posted a while back for the Submariner. Something like 'remember this face' in the title, and a photo of a US Naval officer, that one was awesome

I'd suggest getting comfortable with decasing the movement first of all. Then maybe with swapping the dial and hands. Those're the basics from which all future mods will spring from and depend upon. Best of luck, and enjoy your journey, you'll soon be doing things to your watches you never thought possible previously

Very nice work As mentioned above, you'll feel so much more satisfaction if you complete the project and fix the issues yourself, rather than sending it out to someone else There's nothing in this hobby as satisfying as being able to look down at your wrist, and think "I built that!"

If that's the case, he needs to be wearing a Panerai!

But not a rep, or the Paneristi will nail it to a tree

And of course, the very first, 1954 6200 Not even called a Submariner

Sorry to hear that, good vibes are on their way

If you take away the obviously higher labour rate and account for ETA's markup, the actual cost to produce would be the same. After all, the watches to go through the same basic processes. We all know the chinese cut corners however, and that our rep movements rarely come oiled or clean. That all costs money.

These are luxury items though, and you are not paying for the watch as much as you are paying for the brand and all the air racing teams, movie stars, athletes, etc. that they pay millions upon millions of dollars to endorse their products. Setting a watch price has very little to do with actual value, but much more to do with targeting an audience that has the money to pay for a perceived exclusivity.

And life has been treating me well Teej, just been a little to busy with life lately

I see what you mean there, afterall, the movement in a budget PAM is pretty much the same as the movement in the Swiss version (and possibly even the real thing) it's only when dealing with stuff like exotic hair springs that the movement can be considered to be superior to the regular version

I have to admit, I never thought of it in terms of the cost 'paying the wages' of the endorsing celebs, I wonder what percentage they get out of each sale You're quite right about the exclusivity being a perception, I recal someone once said on forum that essentially anyone with a moderately well paid job could afford a decent watch Of course, I doubt saving the McWages for a gen Sub would ease the sting of having to say "Would you like fries with that?" Thinking about it, someone who did do that would probably be called out more, because of people's misconceptions and perceptions of them/their job.

I certainly know that feeling, glad to hear life's been treating you well though

It really depends. To me a watch is a status symbol. Day to day basis I wear my beloved Seiko or maybe even Omega for more serious business. When its dress to impress it's a different story. The watch I choose depends on the people you're about to meet. If it's a club night then it's rolex. Most recognizable watch throughout all the social classes. When it's a posh cocktail party, it will be Patek Phillipe or a Breguet. In addition, we watch aficionados know all our friends by their watches, so if I know what they are wearing I will try to wear a watch of similar standard. Generates more discussion and people tend to like you more if you share a common interest.

But I do like watches because of their aesthetics. Some of my favorites include cheap quartz watches that just look cool and special.

When buying a watch, you buy the BRAND. Everything works that way. I just bought some no-name pots and pans from Tesco,

If, for the most part, a Rolex is a status symbol at least of some sort, then would a vintage Rolex be less of a status symbol to those outside our circle? If you're wearing a `50s or `60's or even a `70s model does the rest of the world still say 'Oh, A Rolex!' or is that reserved for the new ones with ceramic bezels and not the well-worn vintaged looking ones? Does Ebay or inheritance take some of that status away?

I think Freddy answered the question perfectly, but, something I would like to add to that, is don't forget, the name Rolex itself. Sure, a vintage watch might look like a beaten POS to a civilian, so they'd be less likely to comment on it, and if they were, said owner might say "It's my dad's/granddad's Rolex he wore during *insert war of choice here*" and the instant the civilian hears the R-Word, their opinion of the watch will go through the roof. Not because it's old, not because it is an inherited item with sentimental value and a load of stories it could tell, but because it's 'a Rolex', and those are magic words to hear. Once, an ex-fiance who knew I liked watches, in conversation, said "One day, I'm going to buy you a Rolex." Things didn't work out, people move on, shit happens, but those words were magic. Didn't matter what model she might have one day planned on buying (at that point, I couldn't've named or distinguished between any Rolex model) what mattered, that she was going to by me 'A Rolex'. That's how civilians think of Rolex watches. Not about the history, not even about the actual value, but brand-name recognition

IMHO, it's not worth paying more for the Swiss movement. Unless your wife is actually interested in watches, she won't care as long as it tells the time, and Asian movements do that just fine Can't really suggest any different dealers for this watch, so I'll just say go with the price you like, and I'm sure all will be well

I would say 'yes', it is possible to have too many watches, but I think it depends on the person's wearing habits. If someone is to change their watch daily, or even several times a day based on their activity/wardrobe, then that allows for more variety (but probably still revolves around a few core favorites) on the other hand, others (I fall into this category) tend to wear a specific watch for a while, maybe only changing for activities or even seasonally (I'm aiming to be seasonal, but also with a daily beater, and something for more formal wear) I think as long as people are wearing the watches, then that's not too many in a collection (unless they are someone who specifically chooses to collect and not wear them, but keep them as display items) I'll look forward to other's thoughts on this aspect of watch collecting

In terms of what it actually "costs" to build these watches, i'd guess our reps cost about half of what they are sold for. Meaning a $300 watch costs about $150 to build. Now so long as we are talking about non-inhouse movement watches like Breits, Tags, Omega, etc., I would expect their actual value to be 3 to 4 times that of the rep, meaning if the rep was produced for $150, the gen would likely cost no more than $600. The thing that would be the biggest difference in the two would obviously be the movement, as the ETA (7750) would cost at the very least $200, while the Asian version would be well under $100. Costs to produce the other parts would be similar however. So bottom line is movement costs and labor are more expensive on the gen.

I agree, absolutely. Higher quality grade metals and other materials, so indeed, higher production costs, and a justifiable reason to charge more. However, other than a slightly different hue and shine, the difference between the SS of a gen 16610 and a rep 16610 is something which can only be detected by either a true WIS, or a scientific destruction test, it's not something that the average watch-wearing Joe Sixpack is going to notice, let alone appreciate. This was why I wondered above, as to if that average guy on the street would be prepared to pay a little extra for the watch made from the higher quality materials, if there was no brand name involved, as they're less likely to appreciate an 'invisible' quality

On another matter, good to see you posting, I hope life's been treating you well

these watches are luxury goods, worth is determined by its value consist many things, and trademark is big part of the value, no matter how good a fake can look, its practically worthless because its a copy

And yet that's the crazy/fun part of this hobby... When I sold off my original watch collection, it paid for a big chunk of my wedding, that's not 'worthless', but a quantifiable cash price I would suggest that the perception is what makes something valuable/worthless. For example, the guy who had a Sub for ten years thinking it was gen, only to send it off for service to be told it was a rep... How might that watch's value have been percieved prior to the revelation? Would people have thought it was an expensive watch? Would the guy have thought it was a worthless piece of crap once he found out it was fake? All that would have changed, was his perception of the watch, the watch itself, remained the same... I agree, these watches are luxury goods, but, adding the word 'luxury' to something, while it make an item desirable, it does not automatically make it valuable. A gen Sub is simply not worth the $$ price Rolex puts on the price tag. Even our reps aren't worth the price tag the dealers assign them. What we're paying for, as you say, is the brandname, the trademark, or in this specific instance, the 'skill of the forger' to create a (near) identical copy of the coveted original

I havent seen him aorund in so long and wanted to throw some love out there

anyone else miss him?

Hell yeah, it's been too long since my bro was on the forum. I know life has a way of taking over, but I still miss my bro and the pillar he brings to this community

Teejay

Thanks for your reply! I wasn't plan on using the whole 8k. If I went brand new I wouldn't spend more than 5500-6000. But worse case scenario I could troll eBay for a good deal 3500-4k. I am going to push this weekend to make it happen. I use the reps to trial them to see if I want to invest in the gen. I have had too many pam's reps and know it's time to finally invest.

Luke

No worries, always happy to give advice where I can I have to admit, personally, I can't see the point in buying the gen, when the reps're just as good, but to each his own, best of luck with your purchase

On topic, I can see your logic: Use the 8k to get the Rolex, then flip the Rolex, and use that cash for the PAM... Makes sense, and if you can do it, go for it. On the other hand, I would question if the gen purchase is really worth it, given the quality of reps available. Also, with regard the 8K. Credit card, line of credit, it doesn't really matter, but, would you want it if it was called a 'debt card'? Is it really work putting youself 8K into debt, just to have a watch? (when quality reps are available for much cheaper) Entirely up to you, best of luck whichever way you decide to go

I use a wad of sticky tape, press like hell and crank it open. No worries.

That's pretty much my method too, but with dishwashing gloves

I've been doing a lot of reading (including outside of this forum) because the subject matter of rep and gen watches and the inherent value of reps and gens fascinates mr from a philosophical perspective. The quality of a gen would undoubtedly be better overall, I don't think that issue is in dispute, but the question is 'how much better'... I would say it's mainly the movement that distinguishes the two (not including functionless 21j movements that don't correctly operate like the gen, but actual clone movements that replicate the operation an in most cases the functionality of yhe original, such as th A7750 and 28xx clones etc to name just the most obvious) With all the interesting posts on the level of finishing doe in china, with final assembly in Swiss to be able to stamp the movement, that is frankly the clincher. I would say that the products with slightly finished ETA movements (Breitling pre B01, Longines, Omega etc) are inherently worth less that the hand finished masterpieces from the hand-finished wonders from VC, Patek etc.

If we consider the case, I would say the level of machining sophistication that the Asian factories have is almost (but not quite) on par with the German CNC machines the Swiss use. I've gathered that tolerance issues when creating reps are not the fault of lack of tolerance in machining, but laziness from the factories. Though, to be fair, some pics of the latest super reps has shown that they are definitely pulling up their socks in this area.

A wise man once told me the 'Golden Rule' of product cost breakdowns. He said that, in most cases, for western-produced items the costs were almost always 33% labour, 33% production materials and 33% overheads. Incredibly, though you might think different industries skew this value, most industries creating a tangible product for sale need people to design it, male it and market it. This applies to Rolex, but not to Rolex clones. For Asian makers, they don't advertise, as Rolex does that for them (;o)) and labour costs are lower than in Western countries. So in a clone, you ate really only paying for tooling costs for the machines for the factory, the movements are sub US100 for the most expensive Chronos and a Swiss 6497 can be had for peanuts at Retail, so you know they're cheap to make at wholesale, there's a small wholesale profit to the dealers and then they put on their 20-30% which is fair enough.

Considering the fact the Asian movements are not as well finished, often not waterproofed to the same levels or in some cases not even functionally equivalent, it's ceasy to make the mistake than most people make and say they're not worth as much... But it's comparing apples to oranges. Speaking about the ETA-powered sector, they took about the same time to build (shorter with the asian cases and movts with less QC) and about the same amount of effort went into making each one. They both take a similar time and effort - the Swiss just did it properly the first time ;o)

I would say that Frankens represent (ironically enough) the MOST value for money. They are heavily QCed and remachined by their obsessive owners (the finger is squarely pointed at the Paneristi of the forum) who obsess and discuss the various thicknesses of CGs and the level of concavity of their crowns to within micron tolerances. Gen dials and hands (and in some cases, movements such as Concepta's wonderful Portos) are added and the end result is usually twice to three times the price of a rep factory item, but still only 10-20% of retail and at 98% accuracy. Cost/Benefit seems highest for frankens, which is why we see so many on the boards being made and traded. Plus it's fun )

It's been interesting to read the various perspectives on this issue, fascinating topic.

You touch on the subject of waterproofing a few times... Now I will admit, I have not had any of my watches professionally pressure tested, and I have received one watch from the dealer which leaked (the replacement did not). However, other than that, I have never had an issue with the level of water-proofing of my watches... They've been bathed/showered/swum in, all without issue. It's been said that micro-breaches in the case seals will actually close up under high pressure, so it's actually under low pressure immersions (as detailed above) that a watch is more likely to flood or fog up. With many watches, particularly the diver's watches, the very nature of the design and construction of the watches makes them water-resistant, with flooding issues down to manufacturer's flaws (which can occur in all branded mainstream items, hence why companies carry warranty) I would be the first to admit, that the a21j movement in my sub is not as nicely finished, or with as exotic materials as the movement in a gen Rolex Sub, but, it still runs at +0.5 seconds over 24 hours, so what would the added cost of the higher grade materials actually get me for my money, especially if the case surrounding the movement is identical? (as when dealers supply a watch with both Asian or Swiss movement options, and the movement being the only difference) Longevity of performance, perhaps? Well, given the cost of asian movements it's as cheap to replace them as to repair them, and of course, even the gen movements still need periodic servicing, so that kind of longevity, we're talking about in decades, rather than months and years, so to be honest, not an immediate concern

Fantastic pic

Superb news TJ! Thanks for updating us on how she's doing! Such a great pic! Your godson is a very happy looking boy!

After all the goodwill people've shown, I couldn't wait to share the good news Indeed, Robin's a pretty happy little dude, wants to do Jurassic Park for real when he's older I wish I could spend more time with him, but wifey is what you might call 'the jealous type...'

Great to hear TJ

Yeah, really good news

Thats great news TJ! Miracles do happen!

Absolutley, they do indeed

great news!

Val.

It is indeed, many thanks

Interesting discussion

I think if all brandings were to be removed, and the gen and rep compared to each other purely 'as watches', then the gen would benefit from higher grade materials in construction, which would make the piece more costly, but, I would question whether that made the watch itself more valuable, simply because the difference in material, are largely laboratory observable only, and at the end of the day, a water resistant SS watch, is still a water resistant SS watch, regardless of the grade SS used... Without any branding, it would be interesting to see how much a consumer would be prepared to pay for the watch with the higher grade materials