TeeJay

If I had to get rid of one of those, I think I would lose the 16610. If it was a matter of choosing to get a 1680 or a 16610, I would suggest a 16800 as a happy medium between the two

Here are the Example QC Pics from Trusty Time of the watch I ordered from them and what I expected it to look like:

Notice the case construction, the ceramic seems to be a combination of shiny polished black ceramic, and kinda brushed too. This is how it was on the TT website and how I've seen it also from other people who have ordered and received this rep, and it is identical to the case on the gen.

Now this was the case that the watch on the QC pics that was sent to me was using:

Notice the matte finish on the black ceramic. This case is from a BB All Black II rep (and it is used on other BB rep models too). The watch on the QC pictures I received featured the Matte case and everything else was like it is on the first picture, so it was basically a mix of BB ALL Black II Rep and the Ice Bang rep, something I hadn't seen done before. This is what led to my theory of the factory pulling a rush job trying to make this rep with whatever parts they had. Perhaps the only ceramic case they could find at the time to build the watch was the matte ceramic (incorrect even for this rep) instead of the polished ceramic they have always used.

Ahh, I see what you mean about the finish now, and yes, two totally different watch components. I would definitely discuss with Andrew what you want, and that you're not prepared to accept the matte-finished case. I'm personaly very scheptical about all this raid business, and don't believe anything Andrew and Josh say about anything (but that is just my personal opinion and one not shared by many) With regards the M/N issue, I agree, it is different to what you had been discussing, but 'bait and switch' is a fairly common occurence in the rep world. I've previously ordered a 16610 Submariner from another dealer, the sales photo showed classic small 16610 hour markings on the dial. However, what I received, featured Maxi Dial hour markers. The dealer I use doesn't use QC pictures, and it wasn't really a deal breaking issue, but it was a good reminder that that is how this hobby goes sometimes, and it can be a case of rolling with the punches. I used to be very much of the opinion that if someone orders X, they should receive X and not Y, but things like the Submariner Scenario, I've come to tolerate things a bit more... As before with the M/N issue, yes, not ideal that Andrew would source you an N rather than an M if that was what was discussed, but the CQ pics are a double edged sword that give dealers the easy out of "but you approved it..." (personally, I don't like QC pics, I simply take what comes )

First off, welcome to the party

1. There was no mix up. The watch you received was what was in the photo. That it was not the watch you wanted you should have paid closer attention to the pictures and discussed with Andrew prior to telling him to send it.

2. It is a replica watch. It is not going to be 100% like the original. If you cannot accept such minor variations, then I don't think that you will find replica watches a satisfying purchase....

3. Not at all. Very few people have experienced delays due to these raids, so either the dealers are able to go above and beyond to still provide goods, or there are no raids.

4. Everyone has their own favorite dealers, recommending one is like recommending someone's favorite meal: There's no guarantee another will like it...

Congratulations to Cathy

Never got round to taking the box shots last night... The watch was a birthday present to myself last year, originally with a black dial, the rhodium dial was gifted by JMB as part of another project, but they combined to make the perfect 80s Yuppy Watch, many thanks, J

I'm proposing a comparitive list of rep only serial numbers so folks can compare/identify models/factorys. I'll get the ball rolling with:

CQout 5513 3865055

CQout 5517 2950417

Silix vintage sub (case is etched as 16610) R863698

so could some of the watches on cq etc actually be the same or just as good as the watches dealers would sell

how would admin mods and the rest of you guys think about me trying to set up as some sort of fair trade dealer only selling tot he site would put no extra risk to the forum

im pretty sure if i put my hand to it i can get rep factory details in a few weeks or months

Possibly, but also a case of 'yes and no', and very much a matter of case by case basis, rather than an overall level, from what I can tell. The 16610 and GMTII I have recently received, have no serial numbers or case etchings. The 5513 and 5517 I got a few years back do. I really wouldn't like to say for sure... For me, the thing which appeals about the site is the 100% buyer protection, which is bulletproof

Indeed T. We all have are reasons...be It personal or otherwise....for feeling the way we do. Cheers.

Absolutely so

Not the clearest photo, but it shows the colors fairly accurately (might do a box set photo later if I get bored enough )

I'm going to a wedding tomorrow, and really not looking forward to it... The bride's one of wifey's co-workers, but not someone I would really consider a friend, and I know my invitation is only as a Plus One, rather than an actual friend, yet for some reason, we've been invited to the ceremony, the sit down meal and the reception. I wouldn't've minded the reception, and do appreciate the sentiment in being invited to the whole nine yards, but feel there are more deserving potential guests Anyway... I put this on earlier in the afternoon so by tomorrow, I'll have re-adapted to the feel and weight, rather than spending the day flicking my wrist and looking like some poser, when I'd really just be trying to get used to it again and to shift it comfortably on my wrist

Ha Ha...It's no secret that TeaJay has no love for the cartel. Tell us how you really feel T. I do respect how TeaJay feels about the TD. There are some here who just dont have much faith In the cartel. But I can only go by my own personal experence. I dont feel I have ever been ripped off. Paid a bit more that I should have? prehaps and most likely....at times. But I have always checked my watches and they were what they were advertised as... Swiss eta and saphire crystal for example.

I also dont have a problem wearing a cheeper rep. I have a quartz Hublot and a 23j UN that I love to wear. No one has ever suggested that were not the real thing. But I also try to avoid situations where such conversations might take place. A jewlery store or watch shop for example. But there's times when I want to wear something more substantial. I just purchased the new Seawolf from Josh. I didn't like paying $378.00 for a rep.. but sometimes there's no other choice If you want the good stuff. Swiss eta 2836....6mm thick saphire crystal....double sided AR....c1 Super lume. If these things are Important to you....then you have to pay for the privilege unfortunately. Again...I dont like paying such prices...but I dont know anyway around it.

So far so good on my side.

Mike

For me, it's not so much a case of feeling ripped off by the prices (which are a very reasonable alternative to the gens ) and I know Andrew and Josh come up with the goods with very few issues, I just don't want to do business with them for other reasons It's like I'm sure everyone knows of someone, who all their friends like, yet for some reason, cannot stand them themselves

Classic, elegant, understated. A stunning build, J

This thread has been entertaining and tells me three things:

1.) There has been or continues to be some form of crackdown (we can read that in the Newspaper)

2.) Our dealers will continue to do the best they can to source what their clientelle wants; however we as consumers need to be more careful as to who actually has what to sell. Their clearly have been and may continue to see service disruptions. Our dealers have historically done an excellent job providing the majority of the membership with their "illegal" needs. That is their business.

3.) Those who have been dissatisfied with the dealers continue to be, albeit they form a small "vocal" minority

1) If this is so, why have there been so few delays in people receiving goods? I'm not denying raids, but I don't think they can be as problematic as portrayed, or none of us would be getting anything. If a guy on CQout can deliver goods within 8 days, things cannot be as severe as they are being made out to be, as he has nowhere near the kind of factory connections as the Cartel, or even WatchEden, yet still came through... It simply does not add up 100%

2) I agree 100%

3) The amount of people inconvenienced isn't the issue, it's a case of ascertaining just how severely these raids are and will impact on our hobby (at the moment, seemingly not much, despite dealers claiming to have issues) in an honest manner

TJ, I appreciate your comments. Your thoughts are based on "what if's". "Is this really happening or is it BS?". Do we know? NO. I'm for being a bit more tolerant. As for not being able to provide sanctions for bad dealings, we'll, that's another "what if". the fact is, if there were numerous violations or rip offs, this forum and the others would make it known and scare off a lot of customers. If you remember the whole episode about 4-5 years ago about the Cartel artificially increasing prices the forum members got to make their own decisions about whether to buy from them. Fact is, They've been very good. I don't have a "dog in this hunt", other than as I look back, these sellers have been overall excellent over the last 6-7 years. I actually was buying from them well before that, as have many others.

This is very true, without a 'man on the ground', we don't know what is happen in GZ, but, the truth is, these raids do not seem to be impacting on people receiving their stuff (Rolexman seems to be experiencing more 'admin issues' than short supply issues) It's not a "what if" on sanctions though... As mentioned, on CQout, three negative feedbacks for any reason, and a dealer is toast. I've experienced it during a transaction, when someone else put a negative feedback, the seller got booted, and my money was automatically returned to my account. To me, that's belt and braces protection for a buyer, not simply relying on someone's reputation to deliver on goods ordered. As before, I don't dispute Andrew and Josh's ability to deliver, and as I said to Rolexman a page or so back, Josh is widely acknowledged as the best when it comes to resolving aftersales issues. I have no beef with that reputation, but what I don't lke, is when people are seeminly lied to for no reason, and inconsistent stories are coming out, where it should truly be a uniform "No issue whatsoever," or "Yeah, no stuff for a while..." (and then nothing getting through to anyone) I am balancing their past solid results, with the same history of little white lies, so truly waiting to see what else transpires in this situation...

After reading all the comments, I'm a bit surprised at all the animosity. These dealers have been around for years selling 1000's of illegal watches and delivering them as advertised with only a relatively few complaints. What else can we buy over the internet from CHINA and have this kind of reliability. Now that there is a crackdown and dealers are having to deal with it, suddenly there is a wave of criticism about how they do business. TJ, I know for years you've railed against the CARTEL, but truth be told they DELIVER. They fact that we don't have waves of complaints about delivery of crap means the vast majority of buyers on this forum and others are very happy with their products, me included. I personally have bought 100's of watches without an issue. Could I have gotten them cheaper? maybe, but Josh, Andrew and the others give me a sense of security that's worth it.

Now, they are under pressure from their Government and are in a moment of "Crisis", yet they are still delivering, maybe slower. After years of good service, give 'em a break!.

The legitimacy of this 'crisis' is the whole point. People have been told that there are delays due to raids, and that would be totally acceptable and understandable. However. For the most part, people are not experiencing any delays at all, from a variety of dealers, so the real issue here is if these raids are truly having an impact, or if this is again, just another 'little white lie'. And yes, I totally agree, for the most part, Andrew and Josh do deliver, I would never deny that, but they have also been proven to lie on various matters on numerous occasions, and that is the crux of this matter. I'm not trying to be confrontational, but consider just how truly accountable to the forum admin and mods are these guys? What can the mods actually do, should they not come through with the goods? Sure, they would lose reputation, but other than that, no real sanctions or enforceable refunds. The site I mentioned, uses an inhouse escrow system and very strict feedback system, which is more stringent than used by eBay. If sellers there don't live up to expectation, they face real sanctions, which even one of our own trusted dealers fell foul of through no fault of their own

As long as the watch is something you are comfortable wearing, then I don't see why its the business of another person to poke his/her nose into the matter.

I would check out CQout, thanks for sharing TeeJay. Your sardonic sense of humor certainly encompasses some element of truth, but lets give some benefit of doubt to the dealers here.

Like I said, IF they are found to be screwing us in any way, I would not hesitate to walk the same boycott route you did. Having said that, I believe that there are still responsible dealers around. Perhaps we should give them a little more time to explain things to us.

Exactly, it may not necessarily be to everyone's taste, but they're certainly good enough for me, and if I were feeling dishonest, could still probably pass one off on 'a civilian' as the real thing, as they're not 'that bad'. Okay, the GMT II I last received (Ironically 4 weeks faster than most receipts from said seller ) the triangular dial marker is offset by about half a degree. It would only be the work of a few minutes to decase the movement and tweak it, but as I only bought the watch to serve as a movement donor, I'm not overly fussed about half a degree when I'm the only one looking at it And you're absolutely right, I wouldn't hesitate to order from WatchEden or Narikaa (or from Ken for non-watch items) it's just that my finances at the moment mean I have to buy from the bottom of the barrel, and even then, I'm still getting a Rolex Oyster Perpetual, not a Polex Oxter Prepetval My GMT II? Hey, it's just a factory reject I figure keeping it humorous will keep it clear that I'm just trying to open people's eyes to the situation and keep things lighthearted, rather than just slagging off the Cartel for the sake of it, because as mentioned, for the most part, they do come up with the goods for folks,I think it's just very clear that this whole 'raid' scenario is being milked for all it's worth, and folks're definitely getting lied too

You guys sure are quick to turn your backs to someone. If a new guy asks who he should be buying from it's all "Oh, Josh or Andrew will sort you out, they're dependable guys". Some romours about a raid pop up and all of a sudden they're liars. I bought 2 watches in the last weeks from both and they have arrived in 2 weeks as they usually do, after first contacting them about availability. Alright, some might have to wait a bit longer due to current circumstances but is anyone here really convinced they're being screwed over and stolen from?

There have been issues with the Cartel for years, which people for some reason, allowed to look the other way on. No one here has been quick to turn their backs on anyone. Now, to highlight the point you made. You bought watches from both, within two weeks, and have both watches. First off, that's excellent that you have your product, but the actual problem, is that you receiving them, proves the point that they are lying about availability issues due to factory raids. It shows that they are simply lying to their buyers, and as discussed a page back, this will inevitably lead to them raising prices, which buyers will likely accept under the pretense of 'hard to comeby stock', when in truth, there is no supply issue whatsoever...

lol yes I know.. I speak Mandarin and cantonese very well and your post came across as hilarious when used in this context! Anyhow, I do get the points you are trying to bring across, in your "take no prisoners" way. Reading your colorful comments about the cartel dealers certainly put things across in a more interesting perspective.

Now, suppose you have been boycotting the "TDs" here.. where do you buy your watches from then?

Glad to hear it read well When I joined, there was a big hoo har about 'little white lies' and how the Cartel (at the time, Andrew, Angus, Josh and King) were trying to muscle out smaller dealers via price-fixing tactics. I didn't like what I saw, so vowed to never spend a penny with any of them. A while back, RWI revoked Andrew and Josh's status as 'trusted dealers', yet for some reason, people still keep buying from them I do get it, for the most part, they do produce the goods and get the job done, but at the end of the day, I don't want to do business with someone who felt the need to lie about the availability of a bezel insert. If they will lie about that, what else will they lie about?? When I used a forum trusted dealer (Silix) in each instance, the goods received were either incorrect, unsatisfactory, or flat out never arrived (I still have a Jubilee Bracelet undelivered somewhere out there...) I've bought virtually all my reps from a site called CQout. It uses an inhouse escrow system so the seller doesn't get paid until the buyer has not only received, but is satisfied with the goods and releases payment. Heck, if someone really wanted to shaft a seller, all they'd need do is keep the watch but never release the payment. The feedback system is also ruthless. Three negative feedbacks, for any reason, and the seller is automatically booted from the site. Just by comments in this thread alone, under that system, Josh would either be gone, or on his last warning... TD WatchEden used to trade on CQout, and fell foul of this rule just thanks to 'n00b negatives' that the watch wasn't 1:1 to the gen, or such similar pathetic comments. I will admit, these are more the budget end of the spectrum, but I've never been trying to impress anyone or pass anything off as genuine, I just have a thing for watches, and if it should say Rolex/Omega/Panerai on the dial, for the sake of aesthetics, I prefer that it still says so rather than being a sterile homage dial

My gosh TeeJay..lol.. "Dew leh loh moh" literally means to "f**k your mother"..haha over a watch?

Look, I'm subscribing to your posts for pure entertainment value. hahaha

It's a very commonly used phrase in Cantonese, in context, it's more akin to how gangsta rappers use "motherfucker" every other word, rather than the intent behind saying "go fuck your mother" to someone Either way, it would ensure the point about the refund is understood

Wise choice. I explicitly asked Andrew if there were delivery problems and he said NO. Please know I maybe ordered 100ths of watches from Andrew and he always treated me right but this is just bullsh!t. He is lying just to get our money..... 2 weeks have passed and 0 communication or QC pics. As a vet I'm patient and I don't mind waiting. I know how this game works. Just don't lie!!

That has been precisely my point all these years, sadly, in the Chinese businessman's scheme of things, lying to gwai loh is not lying. Nor is it lying if one is not caught in the lie. They genuinely do not think they are doing anything wrong. Regardless of QC pics, given Andrew's reputation, I would expect the watch to have arrived within two wees If I were you, I would send a request asking for either a valid tracking number, and if one is not forthcoming, I would cancel the order and demand a full refund (adding the phrase "Dew neh loh moh!!!" . If he can't fill your order, he should just say so and let you take your money elsewhere. If you do ask for a refund, I bet you get offered another item instead of said refund Fingers crossed for you, amigo

Oh, I am starting to.. screw the cartel, if they are screwing us!

They have been for a long time, hence why I've never purchassed from any dealer (past or present) in all my time here as a member

[Edit to clarify]

Any Cartel Dealer. I missed that out before being quoted

i will i will just buy from other dealers or from the forums if josh doesn't return the watch repaired there is lots of things that can be done to effect his business thorugh ccard compaies and paypal etc

Despite my anti-Cartel stance, I will willingly concede that Josh is certainly regarded as one of, if not the best, for when it comes to dealing with afterservice issues, and I fully expect that he will (eventually) sort things out for you My issue with this situation, is it highlights that these dealers do not deserve the loyalty they are given, cannot be trusted to be honest (about anything business related) and simply view this community's members simply as a cash source...

im not looking for a new mate or buddy im looking for a decent amount of loyalty after spending close to $2000 in under six months with him I have an order he knows about valued at about $500 that i told him to get ready but not to ship until the repair was ready now im in sales and have been for 15 years if i had a customer who had spend what i have spent and willing to spend more id push the boat out a little .

$2000 won't mean shit to him in terms of loyalty return, all it means is $2000 extra in the bank. Just the same as the previous $2000, and the next $2000. Your business ethics and Chinese business ethics could not be further apart, and people really need to wake up to the fact that shopping from the Cartel, is being a fish in a barrel. All is well for a while, but it's when these litte white lies crop up, that they show their true colors... I hope you get a satisfactory resolution

Lol couldnt help but laugh at this statement..

Just being honest, which some folks round here don't appreciate when it comes to the Cartel

The question is, can he genuinely fulfill new orders? His policy of "new sales over repair" is not something I concur with, but I shall not comment further on this. I know of at least one dealer here who is taking orders actively and hedging a lot on delivery.

More than likely yes. From a dealer's point of view, getting a watch repaired are costs (which may or may not lead to repeat custom) new orders are direct 'cash in hand',so it's no surprize that they are taking care of cashflow first. As mentioned above, these guys are not people's personal friends (regardless of how they may behave or lead people to believe) but are guys with the ethics of a snakeoil seller. If they don't get caught out, they don't consider it lying, just 'business' I had a similar experience a few years back with a tattoo artist who I had allowed to do work on me while he learned. As time went on, his prices increased from "just the cost of ink and needles" to full studio rate. On the one hand, I didn't mind this as the quality of his work was excellent, but on the other hand, studio rates requires studio overheads, not someone working from home... When I went to begin the outlining of the dragon's head on my back, I was told that he hadn't been able to prepare the stencils by hand, and would need to purchase a thermofax machine before we could do the dragon's head. The only problem, was unless he did more tattoo work on me anyway (for the money) he wouldn't be able to get the thermofax to do the dragon's head So I got some other work done which would have needed doing eventually anyway, but the point is, I was simply being used 'as cash', not respected as a friend or valued as a customer. In a later session, we got 90% of the dragon's head outlined, before he had to retire from tattooing due to back problems... Okay, so I have an unfinished outline on my back, but when cash allows, I'll be able to go to an artist 10 minute walk from home and get it finished off, he, on the other hand, won't be tattooing anyone else in any meaningful way