TeeJay

I think you're right about the watermark on the picture... I have to admit, I was rather liking that watch. It definitely seemed to me like a 'holiday watch' though, rather than a daily beater... If Tony could source one, I'd probably order one. I'm not sure if I'm brave enough to order from that dealer though. That said, the price on single units isn't too bad, especially given the current $/

Damn, that's one hell of an awesome project Beautiful house, breathtaking views, absolutely top notch If I ever get the chance to work on such a project in the future, I'll be lucky

Sorry for the thread bump, but I've just noticed something... On the first link provided by SSSurfer, the 12 and 24 marks on the rehaut, are not alligned at the top and bottom of the case... I'd take that as a sign that it could infact be an adjustable inner bezel, rather than an independently settable GMT hand...

I've just ordered a 187(ish) rep, which I know isn't going to be overly accurate. It's got a quartz movement, and the bezel, rather than having minute markers, has the cardinal points of a compass on it. At the time of order, I thought "what the heck..." it'd do as a real roughwork beater, and, truth be told, I ordered it just so I could cannabalize the strap for it's deployant I did rather like the pic Pugwash loaded once of a 187 on a rustic strap. Made me think of a watch that an Adventurer would wear while exploring the Amazon and hacking through jungle... However. I've just seen a nice group shot of PAMs, with a 217 and a 187 side by side. Now, as folks probably know, my favorite watch is my 127, and, for the purposes of comparison, a 217 is close enough. Seeing the two side by side, made me realize that the 187 suffers from the very thing that put me off the Breitling SOSF: Relatively small dial, compared to overall case size. Having seen the comparison, I have a feeling, that I'm not even going to like the 187 when it arrives... (I might be wrong) Can anyone shed any light on them which might change my opinion?

If I have misinterpreted your situation, then my apologies, I just do not think of the things you mentioned, as being unreasonable, or worth 'warning' other folks about. Peace.

I think Rod was objecting to me pointing out that the issues he experienced were not exactly unreasonable...

Only your entire post... Which, from what you've detailed, was no more troublesome than subscribing to any forum or validating a paypal account. Do you complain about those things too? I appreciate you might have experienced payment difficulties with the vendor, but that is not the fault of CQout as a site. As DemonSlayer pointed out, the requirements of signups on CQout have considerable benefits. What fact? The fact that a dealer had issues with a payment system? How is that the fault of CQout? Were there other payment options which they accepted which you could have used? Also, not just 'one person' but three pointed out that there are no problems with CQout. Given you quoted my post, and none of the others, you are clearly refering to me as that 'one person'. If you have issue with what I said, all you need do is respond to my points. I was not trying to be argumentative with my post, I was simply pointing out, that the issues you detail and clearly objected to, are not actually unreasonable or unheard of in other forums. With the greatest of respect, you sound like someone who bought something from a shop, lost the receipt, broke the item, and then starts kicking off in the shop because they won't issue a refund. Homer said: Quit moaning. To be honest, I can't understand why you are objecting to simple, and common, sign up procedures. What problems? That you had to sign up? That you had to pay an insignificant fee to do so? That you were required to validate a payment method? Those are standard practice with most things online. I think it would be more fair to say problems can arise, rather than will. The same can be said of any dealer, 'forum recommended' or otherwise. Oh really. How many times have I said that I bought watches from Tonyxkf from CQout? How many times have I mentioned I bought watches from Deeswatches from CQout? For those who care to notice, I have done so on numerous occasions, so don't try saying I've made no posts about it. I 'ripped $hit' into you, because, from what you put, your view of the situation (in regards signing up) is wholly unreasonable, given that similar requirements are made on forums and paypal. Too secure Is clicking a link in an email really to validate an account really too much to ask? Indeed, it will do the board good to know that there is a site of dealers, who, as both DemonSlayer and myself mentioned, get removed if they get too much negative feedback. That will do the board good, because people will know that dealers there are answerable to others for their actions, so those who remain, are the ones who have earned that privelage through continued good transactions, not just be dealers who pay to deal ('poach' might be a better term, for the behaviour of some) on a forum, and know that people will defend their poor practices, simply because they were happy with their own transactions. I'm not defending CQout simply because I was happy with my own deals there, but because the issues you raise, honestly come across as either irrelevent to CQout as an entity, or simply unreasonable, due to them being required practices elsewhere. iOffer and LoudFrog are free to sign up to, maybe you'd find them more to your liking. I just completed a very smooth transaction with a dealer on iOffer. I can't comment on delivery or goods, as, as yet, I haven't received them (and am not expecting to for at least a week) but, the transaction itself, went flawlessly.

Awesome pics At a glance, one could certainly think it was a Big Bang... If I recall, even Fossil have made a watch based on the style.

That's why he's perfect for the role: Tony Stark is an alcoholic.

Oh no, a company charging to be able to use it's services!!! Some dealers, will refund the signup fee upon a first purchase... C'mon, it's two English Pounds, not twenty. People willingly pay more than two pounds for shipping, why not just consider it part of the price of the deal? Chances are, it's cheaper than you'd've been getting from the Cartel, so is that two pounds really such a hardship to pay? It's a one-off payment, it's not like you have to pay it again... Like with most forums... That was not a requirement when I registered. I would point out though, that it is something paypal require of its users who wish to 'validate' their accounts... The checkout is simply showing the payment methods which CQout, as a site, support. The merchant has the right to use whatever method of payment they want you to use, to pay them for goods you want to purchase. If they don't want to accept paypal, or personal cheques, for example, they don't have to. Not the fault of CQout. Not really. Of course, 'our' dealers, are not held accountable for their actions. Dealers on CQout ARE. Dealers with repeat negative feedback, get removed. Does that happen here? Sorry to hear you had a bad experience, but, what you're doing, is little more than acting like the guy who stands outside shops, warning customers not to go in, simply because they didn't get their own way. CQout works fine. It does not impose on people any more than any other business. I'd rather buy via CQout than with the Cartel. At least I know that I'll have an actual recourse with the dealer should their be a problem...

It should be, but I'll run some checks just to be sure

I feel almost privelaged I don't think it's anything as organized as that, I've heard that other scams, and even viruses, have been known to go from computer to computer, using different emails on each (picking up a new email relevent to each new recipient), but the same message. I think the really funny thing about it, is that it was someone I hadn't spoken to in years, and, when I actually replied (forwarding the message to them) the address needed adding to my contact list. That's how 'out of date' it was If, on the other hand, I have been earmarked for individual attention, I'll just have to be extra vigilant

So I just checked my emails, and was shocked and surprized to see an email from an old friend, with this title: EMERGENCY HELP Not someone I've spoken to in years, so the email itself was somewhat surprizing, but, when I opened it, this was the garbage inside: Hello, I am in a hurry writing this,I had a trip to Nigeria on the visiting the (AFRICAN CULTURE) opening ceremony www.tinapa.com, Unfortunately for me all my money got stolen at the hotel where i lodged from the attack of some armed robbers and since then i have been without any money i am even owing the hotel here, so the hotel telephone service is disconnected,so i have only access to emails,my mobile phone can't work here so i didn't bring it along,I am facing a hard time here because i have no money on me. I am now owning a hotel bill of $750 and they wanted me to pay the bill soon else they will have to seize my bag and hand me over to the Hotel Management., I need this help from you urgently to help me back home, I need you to help me with the hotel bill and i will also need $500 to feed and help myself back home so please can you help me with sum of $1250 to sort out my problems here? I need this help so much and on time because i am in a terrible and tight situation here, I don't even have money to feed myself for a day which means i had been starving so please understand how urgent i needed your help. I will appreciate what so ever you can afford to send me for now and I promise to pay back your money as soon as i return home and I have already spoken to this man because he is the hotel manager that helps people to receive.Below are his information. Name of receiver:Adebiyi Emmanuel Address of receiver: Lagos,Nigeria. Secret Question: What For Secret Answer: Ticket Fee MTCN:???? Please let me have the information below as soon as the money is sent. Name and address of sender: Mtcn/Reference Number: I am looking forward to your positive response. Thank you. J**** I cannot begin to express how angry I am that scamming Nigerians would use someone's email like this to try and con money out of people. I don't think a scam could get much lower than this. I hope they receive their 'just rewards' for their actions. What let me know that it wasn't my friend? Well, dialogue and grammar asside, one would think that a girl stuck in a foreign country, desperate for money, would contact her parents for money first, not someone she hasn't spoken to in years Be warned folks...

@ UJ Sorry to hear about your difficulties, that's no small chunk of change to be down, especially when it involves goods which are supposed to be QCd prior to delivery... Best of luck with getting the situation resolved, and, as I've never said it before now, welcome to the forum This made me chuckle: While I agree entirely with what you're saying, I'd have to point out that when it comes to bringing dealers to task, there is often more support for the dealers (regardless of the issue) than support for those trying to get things improved

That's cool, and I agree, there isn't any falsehood involved. I just consider articles like this to be propoganda, simply because of their emotive potential (which is unlikely to be unintentional) and how they (as articles) fit into the current political landscape

I think by putting together the posts of Dave, Ken and POTR, we get a realistic view of the situation: - Reps are not being made in what we in the west, would consider 'factories', but built in back rooms, on the family dinner table. - Busts in the industry show the arrest of consenting adults. Given that these arrests are made public to 'scare people away' from reps, surely showing photos of kids being hauled away would be more emotive... Why not show that? Simple answer: Because they aren't building these reps... - It is more likely, that child slave labor, is being used in production lines for mass-purchassed items, such as DVD players, rather than rarity purchases, like replica watches... Sure, the issue needs addressing, but, as I mentioned before, there's not anything that we can actually do about it, which will have an effect, but, it's more likely that our 'other' consumer purchasses (DVD players, etc) are more likely to be made by child slave labor, rather than our replica watches... My own .2c: - Right now, people have it in for China. There's no denying it. Sure, as a country, it might have its problems, but, what right do we in the west, have to force our western values on their society, and make them change? None. - Replica goods are frequently linked in such articles, as 'supporting terrorism'. Terrorism is the 21st Century equivelent of Communism, and the irrational fear of it, which existed in the McCarthy era. Sure, there are terrorists in the world. Sure, there are Muslim Extremists who want to blow themselves up in the name of Allah. But, chances are, it's not going to be happening in your neighbourhood any time soon, and it's pretty unlikely that funding from the rep industry goes towards it. By writing this article, the authors are probably trying, subconsciously, to get people to thinking (from all those other articles on the replica goods industry) that China supports (in some backward way) 'terrorism'. Articles like this, are nothing more than anti-China/anti-terrorist propoganda. Now, I'm not for one nanosecond suggesting that people should support China's human rights abuses, nor that people should support terrorism. What I am pointing out, is that propoganda (of any kind) cannot be read and taken entirely at face value. It must be examined from all sides. Also, one must remember who propoganda is aimed at: The uninformed masses who know no better. People informed about a subject, see right through propoganda as they know the truth about its lies. Fight the power, Komrades

I'm certainly not offended, but I don't think a boycott by members would actually have any impact or do anything to remedy the situation itself. All it would do, is maybe ease people's consciences, by knowing they aren't receiving such goods, which is fine, but, as before, doesn't actually do anything to remedy the situation itself. I'm all for action, providing such action will be productive and achieve a goal. Thanks for raising the issue though

What am I into... Film Making Model Making (anything 'craft' related really) Reading Travelling Swimming Martial Arts The list goes on

I only argue a point if I have something valid to contribute, or am reasonably sure the point I'm making is correct. I don't argue for the sake of it

It's a fine line, to be sure, and sadly, one which varies from person to person. What one person finds acceptable, another will likely not. Ultimately, that depends what they want out of the watch in question: Do they want 'a nice looking watch', or do they want a flawless 1:1 rep, which they can pass off as being gen... The intent and requirement certainly plays a part in what flaws might be tolerated... Personally, I think the only level of quality assurance, should be basic mechanical 'competence': ie hands don't fall off, crown/screws doesn't/dont strip, hands move reasonably smoothly, rather than getting jerky at random places round the dial, and time-keeping should be reasonable (although not necessarily as precice as COSC standard) Water resistance.... Tricky issue. Some watches, by the nature of the design, tend to have less weakpoints in the case for flooding, so they should have a reasonable degree of water reisistance. Yet, there are reports of watches flooding under relatively passive immersion. With a watch which should be water resistant by virtue of the design and it's construction, such flooding isn't really an acceptable scenario. Lume. Again, a tricky, and very personal issue. Does the person plan to actually need to check the time in a darkened room? If not, what does it matter if the lume is poor? Sure, it's not accurate to gen, but, at the end of the day, if it's not a required feature, does it matter if it's not present? I've found the lume on most of my reps to be adequate for my needs (although some have been better than others, and, my most frequently worn watch, I would like to improve the lume, simply because it is a feature I use daily) Anything other than that, I'd consider as a bonus if the watch has it. In terms of QC, I think that if someone says they QC a watch, they should do so. I've no problem buying from drop-shippers, they've always corrected incorrect shipments. Yes, it's an expense, but, at the end of the day, still cheaper than buying a gen. I don't like the idea of someone saying they QC a watch, and then not doing so. Personally, I find it hard to believe that a watch, which tells the time at the source, mysteriously 'stops working' during transit. I'm not saying it's impossible, I just find it unlikely. At the end of the day, we are purchassing rep goods, so less than perfection, as mentioned above, is part of that. That said, with the levels of quality which are around, it's not unreasonable to expect similar levels on a consistent basis. In a way, these watches make me think of shops which sell 'factory reject' stock, ie T-Shirts with a few loose threads, socks which aren't quite the right size etc etc: For the most part, a product which is good enough for everyday use, just not quite 100% perfect. I admit, some people do have unreasonable expectations of products, and ultimately, such folks will never be satisfied with anything less than perfection. Those folks, would likely be best to avoid reps, as invariably, they will wind up disappointed with their purchase. I think as long as folks have reasonable expectations, and as long as dealers provide a reasonable product (ie something which basically 'works' and isn't falling apart) then people should be happy all round

Congratulations

You're absolutely right. Promoter, my apologies for taking your thread OT

Why the ""'s? Is that not my name? I have strong feelings about the issue, because I care about this community, and am sick of seeing it abused. Simply because those are proven examples, of when the Cartel dealers have lied to buyers, and charged for services which were not provided. And I would entirely agree with you there. It might not be their fault, but that still does not mean it gives them the right to misadvertise product, and lie to and manipulate clients. If anything, those things should happen even less. I would agree with those points too. The point being though, that these forums are supposed to protect people from scammers and scam sites. If a dealer starts delivering poor quality goods or services, then they should be removed from the listings, so people would konw that they are no longer to be trusted. I've only ever seen one dealer banned from this forum, and that ban had nothing to do with the service he was providing clients. It would appear the dealers are being judged on a 'balance' system - More good feedback than bad feedback = they're still trustable, and worthy of paying to be dealers. Personally, I would rather see something in place which would view the severity of negative services, such as the B&R incident, the reports of un-waterproofed watches, etc, and if they could be seen to form a pattern (which they do) then that'd be that. But, that's just my own opinion, and I can't insist that it be acted upon. Again, I agree, I just think it rather scary that educated adults need to be treated in such a manner. Of course, but, if 'the crowd' are being lied to, then they should realize that and seek other alternatives. I think that's an excellent idea. I don't think it would ever be implemented, but it's definitely a good one. Ultimately though, at the end of the day, the admin have made clear that they take no responsibility for what happens between buyers and dealers, but are merely 'facilitators of trade'. That would be true, if people were also posting negative reviews. Okay, I know there are negative reviews, but not many. Some would argue that that's simply a sign that there are very few dissatisfied customers. However, having seen how people rally round to defend a dealer who is receiving a negative review, I think it's also a likely case, that people are not posting negative reviews for fear of getting flamed by the forum, and getting the dealer mad, so lessening the chances of getting their issue resolved. I don't think that's a healthy state of affairs...

I never said that you were, I merely asked what you were basing your judgement of the Cartel's 'status' on. That's a fair enough point about small fish, and in the grand scheme of things, yes, they likely are small fish. However, in the small scale, ie these forums, in a small enough pond, even a small fish, becomes a big fish, and that's the case of what we have in these forums: Big fish, in a small pond. (well, more accurately, small fish in tiny pond ) However, that has the effect of giving them clout in this community. Most notably, when someone points out a failing on their part, many are quick to defend them (not that that's what you were doing) There are also those, who are quick to defend them, so as not to endanger their 'easy supply' of reps, rather than having to go out into the wider areas of the community, and source their watches from dealers where there is less feedback and less support. To me, that says that some people just can't think outside the box and need spoonfeeding. I bought my first rep from what is considered (by these forums) to be a 'scam site'. Despite getting ripped off for the price, I certainly don't consider them scam artists, as they actually provided the product as promised. Sure, had I looked further, I would have found a better price, but, that's life... My next rep purchases, were from a dealer who this community has little time for: Applewave. A drop shipper. So the first watch he sent (which I ordered for my wife) wasn't what had been ordered, it was still a nice watch. He gave me the option to keep the watch, and accept a discount on re-ordering the original watch, which I declined. I said I'd return the incorrect watch, in return for the correct watch, and asked if the discount could be transfered to another purchase (which was for myself) Wasn't a problem at all. My wife still has the J12 somewhere, and, being quartz, it still keeps excellent time. Of course, the 'ceramic bracelet' wasn't up to much, and it's since been placed on a white leather bund strap. The watch I ordered for myself, an Omega Seamaster, was pretty inaccurate, but, in itself, a nice watch. I've since moved on to other dealers, but, in all instances, any errors have been dealt with swiftly and professionally. The only serious issues I have had, was when buying from a 'forum recommended' dealer. I guess it's just a case of swings and roundabouts with this hobby, but, there is a bigger range of dealers out there than the few who choose to pay to advertise on these forums, not that they are ever as well recognized or received. by the masses... Ignoring the illegality of the reps themselves for a moment, of course there's no crime in getting as much as they can for it. There is however, the issue of making charges (such as for waterproofing) for services which are not performed, or knowingly advertising something as X (having a Swiss Movement) and selling Y (Asian movement) (For the record, I have no issue with Asian movements. I love Asian movements. I have Asian movements in the majority of my watches, and am not prepared to pay double cost just for a 'Swiss movement' which does the exact same thing just as well, my issue is with deliberate misadvertising.) If someone genuinely doesn't know what they are selling, then fair enough (and afterall, some of the dealers out there are not watch enthusiasts, they are just businessmen selling items) but, when they have been involved (to some degree) in the construction process of that watch, then they should know precisely what is being used, so in such instances, ignorance is no defence, as they simply are not ignorant of the details, and just hoping that no one will call them on the issue. When they are called on the issue, that's when you get the "This is a hard business" sob stories to try and justify their lies. That is what myself and others, found unacceptable. I didn't name the Cartel, I simply use the term. Of course, people are free to buy from whoever they want. But, this goes back to the point I made above, if people think that the Cartel are the only reliable source, then they won't think to look elsewhere. Now, that's not really the fault of the Cartel if the person doesn't think to look for alternative sources, but, it is their fault for giving the impression that they are the only source (as one member was once told by email by a Cartel dealer) Also, yes, they can set their prices as they choose, if people don't like the price, they have the right not to purchase, but again, if they don't know about other dealers, or are lead to believe that the Cartel are the only source, then they are likely to pay that price to get the item they want, so yes, totally legitimate business practice, but thrown in with enough misdirection to make the client part with their cash. All the while, under the banner of 'trusted dealer', and with a forum full of happy buyers ready to back them, should someone dare to mention, that their brand new, waterproofed sub, leaks like a seive any time it gets wet. To be honest, the Cartel are much less active on this forum than they used to be, but, that doesn't mean they aren't still around, and making money off the community.

And you base that on what? The existence of the Cartel is not up for dispute, and nor are the proven past incidences of mislabelled stock, or times when water-proofing was paid for, and the received watch leaking. Precicely how much 'clout' they may have with the factories is certainly an unknown quantity, but, there can be no doubt that they have, in the past, led people to believe that watches were only available from them, so not to search elsewhere, when infact, those watches were available elsewhere (to some dealers) Is it a coincidence that there have been complaints made about Cartel dealers, yet they are still able to maintain a position on these forums as 'trusted dealers'? As for them taking care if issues with shipping, of course they will. What kind of dealer does not deal with such issues in a timely fashion? They are not the only dealers capable of delivering excellent customer services or products, but they are the only dealers shown on numerous occasions to have either attempted to manipulate, or outright lied, to people about their products. That is not the kind of behaviour which should be defended or justified. Peace. Welcome to the forum.