teddy boy

Personally I see a pretty big difference between infringement of intellectual property rights and child slavery but maybe that's just me.

Ken, I am by no means suggesting that western retailers are motivated by a genuine desire for social responsibility but they do need to project this image in order to protect their name. Sellers of rep merchandise have no such incentive because they have no name to protect. My point was simply that manufacturers who sell to western retailers have more incentive to project a socially responsible image (realizing some incentive is more incentive than none). The difficult issue is whether these manufacturers and the retailers to whom they sell achieve this goal through genuine efforts to promote socially responsible outcomes or through marketing. I'm confident that they will do whatever is most profitable. In other words, is it more profitable to be socially responsible or simply market social responsibility. Your point on the opague nature of activities down the channel distribution would suggest that it's the latter (i.e. market social responsbility without really doing anything).

Ken, I think that western retailers want more than just the lowest price. They want the lowest price possible that will allow them to perserve some semblance of a socially responsible reputation. The rub is whether the retailer must actually pursue socially responsible outcomes or if simply marketing social responsibility will do the trick. In other words, does the retailer actually have to do good or can they simply claim that they're doing good? The jury is still out on that issue. I think that you are correct that they will have no concern if someone down the line makes their product with slave child labor provided that it doesn't make it's way back to the retailer's own reputational doorstep.

The manufacturers of genuine brand name products certainly have more to lose from adverse publicity and that should provide some deterent against using slave labor. Whether defending their good name is sufficient incentive to avoid the practice is anyones' guess. However, we know that the manufacturers of reps don't face the constraint of defending their good name.

My watch maker who has been in the business literally for decades worked on my two year old day-date. He stated that he would stake his reputation on the authenticity of the eta 28.36 in that watch. He made the same comment regarding the movement in my Pam 029 of approximately the same vintage. Based on this, I believe that genuine swiss movements were in rep watches, at least at one time.

I asked a question on the general forum regarding a friends request to help him buy a rep. My question was, what should we recommend to people in light of The Zigmeister's post regarding the end of high end reps? Somehow responses began to focus on which rolex to recommend rather than the more general question of whether we can continue to endorse reps at all. I still don't know the answer to the more general question. EuroTimez guarantees that his Swiss ETA watches really contain Swiss Eta movements and I have no reason to doubt his word. However, I would feel like a jerk if I advised my friend to pay more than $300 U.S. for a watch and he ended up with a lesser movement. Bottom line, this is becoming a problem for all of us. There is an opportunity here for a dealer who is able to somehow certify what's inside the watch.

Thanks, my watch is of the 5500 series making the movement a 1520. That page at Bernard is quite a find; I've been to Bernard many times but never stumbled across that page. Thanks again!

I have a 1983 airking. I've conducted a web search but can't find what movement the airking used back then. There is no particular reason that I need to know other than I like to know the movement in each of my watches. Any help would be appreciated.

I have the gen of the same watch, but mine has the Bond bracelet. The only negative I've found with my watch is that the clasp on the bracelet (which is the same on the Bond or Speedmaster models) tends to scratch. I read a suggestion once that seems to work Get one of those two sided yellow/green sponges. Use the green side to rub on the clasp, rubbing in one direction only. It seems to do the trick. Here is a link to one of those John Holbrook articles, this one compares the Omega SMP to the Rolex sub. I think you will find it interesting. http://www.rolexreferencepage.com/smpvssub.html

Most people here aren't going to tell you where to buy; the advice is generally to read, read, read. It's good advice. Learn as much about the replica market and various dealers as you can; don't become impulsive. There are many resources available on this site. For example, you will learn that the notion of replica grades is pretty much nonsense.I do think that an explorer I is an excellent choice btw.

Thanks for all the input, the consensus seems to be that you can still get something decent. I"ll recommend a couple of dealers to him. The point about the scratched insert on the sub is well taken. I have a black sub from a few years ago and there is a big scratch on the insert. I thought about buying an aftermarket insert on ebay but don't know if it will fit so the watch gets drawer time rather than wrist time. Thanks again!

Am I correct that the consensus is that you can still get a rep with a decent movement? The thing that prompted my post is the post that The Zigmeister made regarding the end of high quality reps. I would hate to tell him to buy a rep and he ends up with junk. This guy views me as his watch source and wants to buy his dad a really nice present. Thanks for all the input to this point.

A good friend wants to buy a rolex rep for his dad. The Zigmeister post's regarding the possible end of high quality reps disturbs me. In light of this information, how would you advise a friend? By way of reference, my friend would like to buy a Rolex with a genuine swiss eta movement and he is willing to pay the price for such a rep.

Roman Times gives the standard 15% off; I don't know if they sell Omega. Tourneau says many brands, they give 15% off their less popular brands, I'm pretty sure they do sell Omega. Both of those stores are in the Forum off Caesers.

I have a gen Omega SMP and a gen Breitling SO. The former has one sided AR, the latter double. There is a huge difference in appearance. So far my Breitling hasn't scratched, but I understand that this is an issue. The bottom line is that you can tell the difference so if you bought a rep with one sided AR and the gen was supposed to have two sided, the difference would be noticeable. That is noticeable to anyone who knows that the gen has two sided AR. Personally I almost never encounter anyone who knows enough about watches to say anything more than "nice watch."

Here is their website, you can check it out. http://www.omega.ch/

I believe that the Luxury Institute is who I saw cited in Forbes.

I wonder if we would resist $400-$500 reps so much if we could be absolutely certain that we're getting what we pay for such as swiss eta, sapphire glass and 316 stainless? My impression is that the somewhat lower price we're willing to pay is the result(at least to a degree) of the uncertainity regarding whether you actually get what's being advertised. That is, if you were certain of getting the advertised watch you might be willing to pay $400 but are only willing to pay $225 given the uncertainity. If my impression is correct, the dealers have helped create the situation that The Zigmeister describes in the post that started this thread. Obvously the sellers listed here are less responsible for undermining confidence in the authenticity of claims relative to the fraudulent sellers out there. There is, however, the issue of "white lies" that apparently applies even to many good sellers. Those white lies create skepticism and could reduce what we're willing to pay. That could help spell the end of high end reps. Another point to contemplate is the following. If The Zigmeister's premise that the end of premium reps is near, we should see prices for used high quality reps escalating on the resale market. It will be interesting to watch the trading forums here and on the other legitimate watch forms.

I'll be 55 next month and work as a college professor. About 30 years ago I realized that I like wearing suits or blue jeans; I don't really care for those clothes in between. As a result, I don't wear that in between stuff unles the situation absolutely demands. Regardless of whether it the suits or blue jeans, it's always a nice watch whethter it's a rep or a gen. I'll be 55 next month and work as a college professor. About 30 years ago I realized that I like wearing suits or blue jeans; I don't really care for those clothes in between. As a result, I don't wear that in between stuff unles the situation absolutely demands. Regardless of whether it the suits or blue jeans, it's always a nice watch whethter it's a rep or a gen.

The Zigmeister, your post really intrigues me. I am an economist and I would have predicted that this would happen. Although I'm sure that increasing movement prices have played a role, economic theory would predict that this would happen regardless or movment prices. The relevant concept is adverse selection, the same concept that explains why insurance premiums are higher when people aren't part of a group. If you want to buy insurance, the insurer must assume that you have higher than average risk. Premiums are then set based on the expectation that risk is elevated causing people with lower risks to drop out which causes premiums to rise even further. Eventually you have only high risk people in the pool. How does that translate into rep watches. People start out assuming that there the chances of getting a good movement are say 50-50 and are willing to pay a price accordingly. Some producers of watches with good movements decide that they can't make enough money at those prices and either drop out or start using lower quality movements. Buyers must revise their expectations and now conclude that the chances aren't 50-50, they are say 30-70 that you get a good movement. They're now willing to pay a lower price. See where we're headed?

My memory is imperfect but didn't a survey of readers for a high end magazine (Forbes perhaps) rate IWC as the most presitigious watch to own?

I have the same watch (gen). I was thinking about getting a strap; the brown croc with deployment buckle is $650. Hell, that's almost a third of what I paid for the watch. If I remember, I could get the rubber with the tang buckle for either $75 or $100. Seeing how good your's looks, I may go for the rubber strap. Thanks for sharing.

I was in Taipei in December 07, you will love the city. But you won't find any reps of any quality.

click here

The Zigmeister, I re-read your excellent review of the new 28k bph Asia 7750. Thank you again for the wonderful information that you consistently provide. Given that this movement is appearing in so many non-chronograph reps, I have a question. Would most of the problems that you observed be eliminated if you were just driving hour, minute, second hands and a date? That is would getting rid of the chronograph fix most of the problems? Thanks.