JSebWC
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Posts posted by JSebWC
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Raffles now offers a 19mm and 20mm straight end links as an option
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I like the bracelet , did it come with the watch? do you have a link?
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Wow that's quite the crown collection.!!
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Turns out a tropical sunrise in gen land is out there.. ( not same reference but....)
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A beautiful gen example listed for 78800 last week the insert looks original and seen better days, those hands tho?
On 2/9/2023 at 4:35 PM, JoeyB said:The chapter ring on the old watches measured 26mm in diameter. Rolex minute hands measure 12mm, being a radius. The very first minute hands on the 6204 and 6542 measured 13mm, reaching the chapter ring. To my eye it makes a whole lot better look, that silly little millimeter. I got my 13mm minute hand from Helearou some 8 years ago, and had to search long and hard at that time for a pencil hour hand to fit the slow beat genuine ETA2846. The Brevet + crown is from Raffletimes and modified. I've never seen a 6204 in person, but the pics I saw that inspired this build, particularly by Stefano Mazzariol, lead me to believe that the early Submariners hands and dials were gilt only by color description, but actually brass as an ocean diver watch might be. I lightly sanded my hands down to the brass, not shiny at all, and in 8+ years they've not tarnished in the closed case. My bezel is made from brass and nickel plated, which I lightly sanded to allow some brass to show through as if worn. I am famous for my inability to take a decent picture of a watch, but the attached should give an idea of my build.
Is yours tropical too or is just a reflection ? looks great!! Did you make the dial?
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I agree as I had outlined in my post, I scratched the dial so I experimented. as I did with the hands as they were temporary and are the wrong length.
I am not trying to fool anyone. 99% of the people wouldn't know the first thing about this reference or even know the 6205 existed
those that do know and that study the references , can spot it a mile away. Just trying my hand at modding a sub. improvements will come with a new dial and hands.
I was more curious on the quality and in hand appearance of these tropical dials from raffles and I was not disappointed especially for the price.
@madasboot I really dig your work and want to get my hands on some of those !!
appreciate the feedback
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7 hours ago, freddy333 said:
In spite of the dial's baked-in issues, the most obvious tell for me are the hands, which look wrong/aftermarket & new/artificially-aged. In fact, if it were not for the hands, I might not even be provoked into taking a closer look at the dial.
I would try to locate a more accurate handset & give them a more natural-looking patina. If you have not already done so, I would google pics of vintage gen Subs of the same era & find/study the appearance of a set you like. Then, try to replicate that exact look. In my experience, having a single, clear target to copy always inspires creativity & results in a better finished product.Agreed the hands are what's really holding this build back. I will be swapping in a set of gilt pencil hands and a brevet crown .
This is the example that I had found online of a complete 6205 with red triangle insert , apparently original to the watch sold by the original owners family and earlier example sans "submariner" but not a 6200 or turn o graph.
I have been bitten by the sub bug...damnit!! Am I going to have to build one of every cool early reference ?? lol
I do plan on adding a 6538 as that was the original plan until I came across the tropical dial
I believe this one is a 6536 2 line text but it has the red triangle again, but that tropical dial and insert!! what a beauty!! Quite similar to yours Freddy.
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6 hours ago, freddy333 said:
I would try lower temps (200-250 degrees F) & avoid applying anything, including polish, to the lume or dial text. Whatever you use, I would try to bias your application towards the center hole & the solid brown areas.The finished product!!
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" so you like Pina coladas, and getting caught in the rain......"
Pour yourself a drink and settle in for the build story...
So as some of you may know, I am not a sub guy, but then built a 5513 a few months back and now I think that is starting to change. I have always admired the early subs but never got around to building one....well that day finally came.
Raffles released a new tropical dial for the 6205 so I added it to my last order with a 6538 case set .
(check the forum for my earlier tropical explorer build thread)
Parts arrived and I was very pleased with the fit and finish of the case set and the dial. value for the money is quite high with these parts from raffles. machining on the case is great. Yes the bezel still has the wire retaining spring but overall very impressed , I asked raffles if a 6mm crown would fit the tube on the case and he said no, but it sure does. no issues. saves me alot of work swapping tubes.
the crystal popped out no problem ( no glue) and it has a gasket , which was a bit of a surprise. I wonder if a Clarks T19 would fit on this case without a gasket. may be something worth trying.
Anyway I started off by aging the case set. dulled the polished sides and added a few dents and scratches.. decided to stop here, wanted warn and used and old looking but not over the top. I can always do more, but its really hard to go back if go too far.. you will see how I prove that later on .
Used an Asian 2824 clone with a modified setting lever for 2 positions and removed the date wheel. I like these clone movements because they are lower beat than gens. they beat around 21800 and have a bit of a choppy sweep, The keyless is a PITA as many of you know...
Aged the lume a bit with some brown air brush paints to break up the evenness of the lume colour and give it some depth. installed the dial and hands and was in the home stretch and then noticed that the keyless was out of wack. no biggie, since becoming proficient in fixing the keyless , its just an extra step so I stripped it down , fixed it and reinstalled the dial and hands , checked the alignment of the hands and not noticing that the dial was not completed seated flat against the movement, the hour hand puts a nice scratch on the dial! DOH! armature bone head move glad it was only a 35 dollar dial and not a one off Vietnam piece..... anyway , since it stuck out like soar thumb. I decided to take the ageing further on the dial with some water damage and gave the dial a "spritz " of the same brown paint. it disguised the scratch quite well and was less obvious so It worked out..
Gently faded the bezel but it needed to go further with this , it looked more like a tire, because of the contrast between it and the dial.... but this past week was filled with obstacles... work, coming down with the sniffles, -30 temps and a dead car battery all added to it
Anyway. made it to my studio so that I can continue the ageing of the case. I brassed the bezel which I knew was mandatory and was very happy with how that came out , so I headed back to the lab to get this build complete.
DIAL:
Back to the dial , since I had already scratch it , I figured I would experiment a bit so I tried adding some dry paints to give it a bit of a faded appearance..., wasn't there so then I gave it a quick spritz with some vinegar and popped it in the oven around 275-300 for a few mins and this was the result. The lume darkened, and the vinegar damaged the print in a few spots, but the paint masked it so it looks just like movement grease and dirt...so not a total disaster!! ? not what I was after but again, better than a new looking dial with a scratch on it , for a 70 year old watch.
HANDS: So I had to go back and touch up the lume on the hands to better match the darker lume on the dial and after reading a few older modding threads I seen that some guys would brush the gilt hands on their watches to give it an older look... my scotch pad was a bit too new and I feel I went a bit far with it. lesson learned , these were the wrong hands for this ref so no biggie. I am going to swap in a set of pencil hands anyway. I will be using an older pad and a lighter touch for the next attempt. again....errors are part of the process.
The bezel is wrong for a 6205 as it should have a no hash bezel. I happen to have in my parts bin, a tiger concepts red triangle no hash so I I test fit , needed a bit of work but got it to fit the bezel....now it was on to ageing it. I decided to bake it, after having success with my previous insert on my 5513 I figured , that was the route I wanted to go. first I scuffed it up a bit with some 2000 grit to knock off the top finish and gave it a soak in some bleach....then into the oven....set to broil for the better part of an hour. checking it occasionally .....the final time I pulled it out and WOW!!
so after it cooled I completed the assembly and snapped some pics.
a few teaser pics before the big reveal......
love how the bezel turned out....better than expected really.
not seated properly but you get a peak....what color is it?? how did the bezel turn out??!!
Ladies and Gents... I present to you my 6205 tropical sunrise..
tried a few bracelets , including my Ruby rivet but settled on my custom straight end link raffles rivet it just encapsulates the 50s tool watch look. A watch that spent most of its life out on the seas in the tropics , soaking up the rays ...only to find a pampered retirement after nearly 70 years.....so the story goes.
The fade on the bezel is unreal!! I am very pleased with how it turned out!! a metallic brown that ties the brassed bezel and tropical dial together beautifully!! I just cant bring myself to distress the bezel with some marks....until I can replicate this effect I am gonna leave it as is and let it happen naturally with wear...as I am no doubt going to wear the [censored] out of this piece for a while. The red triangle wasn't common on this ref in fact very rare, I have only seen one gen with one and it was from the original owner. so its plausible. but the red does kinda stick out against the browns. I will order another silver one from TC and see if I can replicate this effect!...but DAMN!! Imagine if this bezel was gen? I could sell it and retire to the beach , but to find a watch with both a tropical dial and bezel...1 in a million... plausible I suppose but the odds are off the charts...unless you happen to build it yourself.!!
in the variance of light , you can see it goes from a blackish brown to a warm chestnut. pretty wild.
The dial did fade out and look baked by the Caribbean sun , despite its damage It looks the part, especially on the wrist. overall I cant complain it looks old and chocolate tropical , compared to how it appeared new out of the box.
artsy
I do plan on swapping the hands with pencil hands and go another round with another proper bezel ...I have a 6mm +brevet crown that I am going to shape and swap as well to complete the build.
tossed it on an old light brown nato, now single pass strap ....talk about a warm rich color combo. It reminds me of a black bay bronze. Is it too much? that is for you to decide. Like it or hate it. this is where were at. I will update this post once I have swapped the parts in.
Would be nice of there was a slightly smaller case and bezel option for the 6205 as it was 37mm where this one is over 38 at case and 39 at the bezel .but now were just splitting hairs...need to find a bubble back that fits this case maybe JMB can machine the back for me like he has done on my 6350
As always, comments and questions welcome.
Thanks for looking.
p.s sorry for the ear worm if you picked up on the song lyrics , it was a theme party after all.. lol
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21 hours ago, automatico said:
"I was thinking of getting a 1mm stamp kit and try my hand at adding my own markings but I think that would end up in a disaster...but in my mind's eye it would look better than the chinsy laser etching."
A friend engraved a few cases for me using an old Hermes pantograph engraving machine and they all came out fine. It takes a while and most of the time is spent on setting it up...mounting and centering the case in the machine etc. Many jewelry stores that have been in business for a long time will have one along with many hobby guys who bought one for not much $$. The correct font is easy to find because it is a basic design.
You might ask around and see if anyone you know has one or knows someone who does.
Thanks for the info , that is a cool system and would be easy once set up. Im surprised it can do such small font sizes on a case. I was just going to buy the stamps and try hammering them into the case. but decided I am not OCD enough and would just make a mess of it so decided to hold off. however if I did come across a machine like this for sale I would consider it.
19 hours ago, freddy333 said:
If I remember correctly, the 6536/1 dial came from MQ, but you may be able to search out the original build threads describing the parts & construction details.
Paint is probably not going to work well, because, by definition, it adds a solid layer to the underlying material. Shoe polish, on the other hand, is applied, smeared (by finger) & then LIGHTLY buffed, leaving thin/variable layers of darker color that are burnished INTO the dial rather than drying as an additional solid layer ON TOP of the dial. I think that may be why your result was less than expected.
This is the type of work that I would recommend you practice on scrap dials BEFORE attempting on your target dial. As I said, you have to be careful not to over bake (ie, burn) the dial paint, which is easy to do. This is definitely more art than science.Agreed. Well truth be told I had messed up the keyless so had to strip it back down and during teh reassembly the dial was not seated flat and when I mounted the hands and went to test the alignment, the hour hand scratch the dial DOH! total bonehead move so I figured the damage was done so I threw caution to the wind and decided I would experiment since there was no going back. As expected the baking did flatten out the dial colour and metallic affect, at least partially , along with the dry paints. but now having it all back together I am overall happy with the look of the piece for the moment ( I will be doing a separate post for this project )
I do like the idea of shoe polish and I can see how that would work and give depth and a spotty darkness to a dial. however I do not like how the lume darkened so I am not sure I will bake the next one at least at that time around 300 deg. however I do think I may be able to achieve the same blotchy look with transparent air brush paint as It allows the surface to be seen and I can build up the colour with multiple layers without covering up the surface details of the dial I use this technique on my lume so I am able to build up with layers and stop when I am satisfied with the colour
I appreciate the incite 👍
This was the before , after scratching the dial and disguise / distract up of a paint spray to cover up the scratch. It worked , but then I pushed the limit..
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Wow.. That's impressive!! especially the time keeping but the fit and finish has really elevated. I dont often say this in a watch forum but, nice set!!
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4 hours ago, automatico said:
"Where did you get that picture of me?"
Saw it on a news stand, the face looked familiar. Ha!
I never was a National Enquirer fan, but I look at the covers...mostly UFOs landing in back yards etc. Now it's Harry, Meghan and of course Bigfoot. It has been a familiar magazine in one form or another in supermarket checkout lanes for as long as I can remember.
"The National Enquirer is still in business. It was originally founded by William H. Hearst in 1926 and is one of the oldest and most successful tabloids in the United States. Over 95 years in business, the Enquirer has changed owners and has gone through several rebranded versions, including the Star, the Globe, and the National Examiner"
"That 1016 mk2 was something I whipped up for a member next door.
raffles case with acrylic crystal swap
ruby mk2 dial
ruby hands - aged lume to match dial
Ruby bracelet
asian eta 2824
and a subtle amount of aging to the case desk diver safe queen."
All the dials I got from Raffles have been very good, but they were mostly unsigned project dials. Got two '1016' dials a couple years ago and they were pretty good except they are a little bit oversized for oem spec cases...Raffles are 28.5mm and genuine 1016 is 27.9mm. It looks like their cases are very good too, may have to get a couple for the dials.
The dial of unknown exact origin in my '1016' project is pretty good but the letters do not 'jump', they are a bit subdued/faded. It is Ok for an 'older' vintage watch I guess.
Yes I always get a laugh looking at those covers while waiting in line....never forget batboy!!
Interesting I didn't realize that gen dials were less that 28mm for 36mm watches. I assumed I have a few gen OP's meant for 34mm cases and they are that size. I guess its all on the inner case design , slightly larger seats/ ledges on the 36mm cases to hold the dials
Yes the raffles cases are great. he offers sterile mid cases so you dont have that brutal jibberish to deal with. I was thinking of getting a 1mm stamp kit and try my hand at adding my own markings but I think that would end up in a disaster...but in my minds eye it would look better than the chinsy laser etching.
17 hours ago, freddy333 said:The best way I found to naturally patina a tropical dial is to add a tiny bit of black shoe polish to some of the brown/blank areas & then bake it -- carefully -- until the desired effect is achieved! Done properly, you should not see where the polish was applied & some of the shininess will be reduced.
You did great work on the Explorer & I look forward to seeing the outcome of your tropical Sub.
In the meantime, here is some inspiration --
Wow I didnt know you had build one of these Freeddy!! Is that a raffles dial that you aged and relumed? Inspiration indeed. that movement is a mint now! I completed my build last night and tried baking the dial , didn't have shoe polish but tried a bit of modeling dry paints and some vinegar and had mixed results. it look alright but not quite what I was after. the lume did darken , which I didnt really want but trial and error. I will probably leave it and just order a new one on my next order and try again with the shoe polish I can see how it would give depth to the color. I did bake my insert and all I can say is wow. I am really impressed with how that turned out. I am going to take some pics later on today , so stay tuned.
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On 1/4/2023 at 2:50 PM, automatico said:
The two Explorers above look very good!
Specs?
HA! Where did you get that picture of me?
That 1016 mk2 was something I whipped up for a member next door.
raffles case with acrylic crystal swap
ruby mk2 dial
ruby hands - aged lume to match dial
Ruby bracelet
asian eta 2824
and a subtle amount of aging to the case desk diver safe queen .
On my last order I thought I would try out one of his new tropical brown dials. was not disappointed. (stay tuned for the sub build )
New raffles case with acrylic (apparently they are glued it - caution advised)
enlarged lugs. soften case with some ageing
raffles dial and aged the lume with some brown air brush paint to break up the evenness of the lume tone.
raffles gilt hands -- aged
asian 2824 with date wheel removed and setting lever modded to 2 settings.
Silix rivet bracelet
under bright direct light the dials pop and have a bit of an rootbeer colour leaning towards orange. under overcast skies in natural light it does take on a chocolate tone.
the finish does have a bit of a metallic effect to it , but subtle , I want to give it more age and depth but deciding which way to go as they are a semi gloss finish and I think dulling down the dial will reduce the metallic effect which I dont want . open to suggestions.
I must say that Raffles has really upped his game the cases he offers are very good quality great machining and quality.
the dials are miles ahead of what they used to offer. crisp text and the details are way more accurate than they used to be , now he offers albino and tropical options also. the quality and durabiilty of the finish is top notch.
I have worked with Vietnam dials from ruby , mochacha and mq and honestly they dont compare as far as finish . I've had lume fall off a mq dial , paint chip off really easily on mochacha dials . ruby is good but they are getting slow on the communications I hope they are not going under cause they are the best value for a Vietnam parts. But Raffles is really coming in strong and for a 10the the price!!+ I hope they continue to expand their offerings.
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Nice job on the builds. you seem to have been bitten by the bug haha careful or you will end up with a watch box full of them I hope your daughter loves her new Tudor!
I recently just bought the tropical dial as well but went with a bit more of a safe queen look before I decide which direction I want to age it further.
I did age the lume on the dial and hands lightly with a brown air brush paint . I like how your dial turned out with your aging technique. it gives it a well worn look.
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nice project. I like how its coming together.
the 25-12 T crystal should fit the raffles crystal. you may need to enlarge the ID of the bezel slightly.
I would go with the gilt gloss yuki dial AFAIK all matte dial 5500's are rep, according to Eric Wind on the explorer reference points by Hodinkiee
look fwd to seeing this come together. Did you do the movement service "?
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As some of you know, I am not a sub guy. It was one of my first watches back in the late 90's and after a number of years I got tired of looking at it.
Fast forward to Nov / 22 I thought I would dip my toe back in the pool to see if I can rekindle the love I once had...but this time I wanted to try something a lil different, so I decided to build a Tudor Snowflake Sub to see if the design cues of the Tudor could sway me back....
I went with the standard issue parts .:
Raffles case set and bracelet
Raffles 29mm blue dial & Insert
raffles snowflake hands
T19 superdome crystal
a whole lot of ageing and patina. I wanted it to look like it had a very adventurous life and was left in the bottom of a gear bag to be found years later.
I really wanted to like it but it didn't scratch the itch. I did like the case and the crystal , but the fact that I couldn't get a proper fade on the bezel insert, just left me uninspired. I ghosted a few bezels and they were cool but again, not what I was after .
So after a few attempts, I hated it and lost that feeling and thought about selling it on......then after creeping online at Mil Subs .. I wanted to go that route, however with the fixed spring bars, I am more of bracelet guy than a nato and I didnt want to go half way. so I dropped that idea. That and the lack of available engraved case backThen after looking further at the other dials offered in this size I decided to go 5513 Matte Maxi . so I added one to my last order and it arrived earlier this week. Having some time today, I thought I would do the transition .
After a bit of aging on the dial and hands I swapped the parts and dropped it back in the case.
Now that's more like it!!
Oh , and I made one last attempt at fading out an insert. after baking it for close to an hour at 450 and checking it every 10 mins , I achieved what turned out to be a very cool fade. It started off as a blue insert now its a Ghosted Mauve....again not what I was after but I dig it. looks authentic IRLI think I will pick up a few black inserts on my next parts order and see if I can get a nice faded grey. The raffles inserts dont respond well to bleach and if you use anything a bit stronger, it strips them and are blotchy. Bunk.
So does this scratch the itch?? YOU BET!! I am really diggin it thus far. from an abandoned project collecting dust to new hotness in rotation. The explorers are going to be collecting some dust for a while during the honeymoon .
Oh and the Tudor parts are up for grabs if anyone is interested , if you have been itching for an aged blue snowflake sub on a budget, I got what you need.
Thanks for looking , Questions and comments welcomed as always.
cheers
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Freshly built Tudor Ranger 90220 "Oyster" Shield dial
Built with the newly released Tudor ranger dial offered from Raffles this year. Its the most accurate option available for this reference
If you are in the market for a Ranger. this is the way to go. All those butchered franken watches on eBay have terrible dials and hands and are selling for $1100+
Specs:
Raffles Case set with flat case back with Tudor shield engravings.
Clarks T12 acrylic crystal
Raffles Ranger Dial - aged lume
Raffles Time Ranger hands - aged lume
Raffles Tudor 19mm Bracelet with Shield clasp
Eta 2824-2 clone movement with rotor removed - manual wind
Aged lume on hands and dial with air brush paint to achieve perfect match.
Removed acrylic crystal and gasket - modified bezel to accept T12 crystal
attempted to clearance inside case back but due to dial shape I was unsuccessful so it ended up being manual wind "oyster"
greased gaskets and watch should be water resistant ( washing hands, showering , swimming)
Thanks for your interest. As always questions and comments welcome.
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I heard from him earlier in the week but you need to contact by email the contact form on the website times out
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Wristies - thread consolidation?
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