Toadtorrent

I've asked this question in the past...didn't really get much info.

The Rolex GMT movement is obviously extremely expensive and hard to find. Trying to mod the base 1575 movement to add the GMT components is a task akin to birthing. I believe it was Freddy333 who did this...and it took a lot of searching for some very rare parts to do the GMT module upgrade.

The solid GMT movement option is really the ETA 2893-2 movement...which again, is hard to find...somewhat expensive, and different dimensions than the 1575 so you would likely have to do some work for a movement holder to get it to work...and the hand sizes will be different...BUT, if I remember correctly, the hand stack on the 2893-2 is incorrect for modern rollies but correct on vintage ones??? I'm not sure on this one ...but remember reading something about this...so something for you to research and validate. The hand size will be different than the 1575 hands. They can be modded to work...but will take much effort...

I found an Asian GMT el cheapo movement...but couldn't find anybody with experience on this. I thought of trying it to see how far I could get...but didn't get around to it.

The Speedy Dates are very accurate watches...a good bet. Lanikai has pics of almost all the models up somewhere on the site...search for them...you will not be displeased.

Avoid the strap options for the Speedy's. Get the bracelet, and order an aftermarket strap for a higher quality one without the Omega tang buckle...and order a buckle on The Bay or get the rep strap for the buckle...and toss the strap because it WILL be junk.

That Frogman strap is awesome. I have a vintage TWB that I wear with my 239 a lot and love the combo.

Here's my 239 lumed by The Zigmeister with the tritium lume. Click the link to get to my write-up.

Love it!!!

Looks great. I was tempted by this one.

Josh and Andrew just changed domains. Check the new postings for their new domain addresses. They are good dealers to start with.

Tag F1 Quartz for sure.

There's also an AP ROO that will fit the bill...Floyd got one recently.

B&R with red lume is a good one too.

There's a red dialed 6263 as well...

And the Omega Speedy Schumacher edition.

Sorry...can't get pics up right now...

That's a nice one. There's no reason you shouldn't take it diving!!

Wow...that looks amazing.

Toad, I believe the differences between the 2813 & 4813 are a little more than the difference in beat. I believe that the 4813 is a slightly thinner movement than the 2813, which can cause some issues with the crown/tube alignment. Also, as you mentioned, you have to be sure to get one with the higher hand stack, or else there may be issues with hand clearance on the dial. Unfortunately, these movements are hard to find.

Yeah...my reference material shows the 2813 to be 5.87mm and the 4813 to be 4.60mm. The thickness delta didn't seem to make a difference when I did the swap on mine from 2813 to high hand 4813...using the same movement holder and everything. I just had to swap the dial spacer for the datewheel overlay.

I have yet to order one from HW Perrin or Somal to see which version they can supply...presumably the short hour hand.

Update: this watch has gained app 25 seconds in 4 days.

That's great!! Good stuff. TT's site is down...what movement is in this one?

If you're going to order the DG4813 at the same time as the A21J...the extra cost is 50% of the cost of going the ETA clone route which generally costs about $100 more vs. $40 for the DG4813.

The 21J movement should be fine for awhile...and a replacement movement is cheaply found and easy to swap in by any watch repair person.

Assuming the 21J movement you are ordering is the 2813, the 4813 with the proper high hour hand will be a straight swap (with a swap of the datewheel as well).

The DG4813 and DG2813 are different only by the sweep. The 4813 is smoother...but some consider it less reliable...others consider reliability to be the same.

Servicing on the 4813/2813 is never done as the cost of service is more than the cost of the movement and no parts can be found. You just run them until they die, then swap the movement out.

With the ETA clone...these MIGHT be fixable with ETA parts (sometimes yes...sometimes no)...but definitely can take a gen ETA movement down the line if you decide to swap it out...with a gen ETA movement purchased from a reputable supplier getting you a new one, in the blister pack...you would be good to go for 5 years before servicing.

If you're thinking of the watch as something you want in the stables for awhile...go the ETA clone route. For a cheap and cheerful, disposable watch you can use on for learning when it dies down the road...go the DG2813 and don't worry about the sweep difference. It's not that bad.

Just finished modding, photographing and writing up my PAM 239...so I gotta wear it.

Click the banner pic for the review.

The Zigmeister lumed and serviced...and CG modded by me.

BTW...how did you thin the leather down after you cut it? Can you sand it or does it have to be sliced with a sharp knife so it doesn't "fuzz" at the edges? Very interesting.

Wish Lello got around to making a Date at 9:00 DW for these....the only thing I haven't dealt with

Thanks for the feedback...and thanks for the early advice on the watch. I agree, a Lello DW made for a Destro would be great...it would really bring the watch to the next level. Oh well...can't be too picky.

@HackR - I'm thinking of polishing all the bezel markers...just trying to figure out the best paint to fill in the numbers and markers with.

Panerai. Panerai. Panerai.

You either love 'em or hate 'em. Those that love 'em...love 'em a lot...so much so that similar to Rolex Milsub collectors, they go on an arduous pursuit to collect a 1001 variants to what would seem to most, to be almost the exact same watch.

To be honest, I used to be of the hate 'em category, thinking them to be nothing more than an awkward, lumpy hunk of metal. But, as you get older, your eyes start to fail and certain things start to take on new meaning like your need to read the numbers on your watch. The always classy, intellectual and eloquent human being Sylvester Stallone said in Cigar Afficianado magazine: "[Panerai], it's perfect for people who are over 45 years old" adding a reference to the ease of reading large-format watches.

...There...now is that close enough to read the time????

Just when you thought 18mm was thick for a watch...(early Panerai Compass)

Meaty gets Meatier...(early Panerai Depth Gauge)

There was an esteemed member here at RWG who summed up PAMs quite nicely in my mind questioning why anybody would want to wear something that looked like you were wearing a hamburger on your wrist. That's sick.

Meat is Murder. Tasty...Tasty Murder!

But...for some reason...Pam's have Star Power as Sly put it. I mean if this guy who with his notoriety can make a little blue dress become the Halloween costume of 1998 is one who wears a Panerai, who wouldn't want one??

Why yes...Grecian Formula does in fact transform me from pervert to Dirty Old Man.

So...enter HackR - Stage Left. I wear my watches on my right hand, and had mentioned wanting a left-handed watch in some thread some time back. HackR looking to offload an item to make room for something incoming sent me a PM about his...and lo and behold...a new watch had landed and a great friendship with another RWG member began.

It's funny that a left-handed watch is one you wear on your right hand...but the emphasis is on the fact that you can adjust the watch with your left hand while you wear your watch on your right. This is all fine and well except that with the movement merely being flipped around, the direction of movement for turning the crown is in fact "backwards" so somewhat counter-intuitive and a bit awkward. I'm not sure if this is different on the gen or the same...so I can't criticize it too harshly as a fault of the rep, given that I've never seen a gen Destro in real life.

Destro? Fantastic question...I would like to know what that means...

BTW...if you're wondering why Destro is the term used for PAM's worn on the right hand, it's because "right" translates to a Destra in Italian. Make it masculine with an "o" ending...and you get Destro.

Having my first PAM in my collection made me realize that in spite of the popularity of the brand both in the rep and gen worlds, there is very little info on the brands and few complete reviews on RWG.

So, what better an opportunity to make RobbieG or Demsey proud than another long-winded Toad Review and Guide to some basic modding of my Pam 239 - Destro Submersible.

Panerai as a company is not that old. Giovanni Panerai first opened his shop in Florence in 1860 quickly making contacts with high end makers of Swiss watches. The company originally focussed on its mechanical engineering efforts producing equipment for the Royal Italian Navy under its original name of Panerai and Figlio.

By 1890 things expanded into producing parts and tools for precision engineering, expanding into an associated workshop for repairing clocks and watches.

In 1913, the company starts producing precision military equipment for the Royal Italian Navy like timers, calculators and other technical instruments that could function in the dark using a powerful luminescent substance called Radiomir, patented in 1915.

By 1935, Officine Panerai starts supplying precision pocket watches for military use and in 1938 produced it's first diving watch - the Radiomir using Rolex manufactured crowns, cases and movements.

In the 40's, Panerai was only making watches for military supply, and the Italian Navy and a select group of German frogmen trained by the Italian Navy were supplied with 47mm Radiomirs...the famed, uber-rare Kampfschwimmer 3646.

Following the end of WWII, Panerai seems to have disappeared...only to reappear in 1993 as it's "rebirth" supplying watches for the first time to the public in the manner of limited edition releases.

In 1995, Stallone discovers the brand and requests limited edition custom made models be produced for him and his friends, thereby catapaulting the brand into the modern luxury realm. And no...I didn't get a Slytech from Mr. Balboa...ungrateful, saggy piece of incomprehensible leather...after all I did for him!

Quiet...quiet...there's a PAM bigger than 60mm out there...and it's MINE!!!

By 1997, Panerai is bought by the Vendome group (now Richemont) thereby creating the collector period designation between 1993 (the brand's rebirth) and pre-buy-out by Vendome in 1997 as the "Pre-V" period.

The rest is history as per standard big conglomerate watch company practices go:

• Become a recognized brand by using somebody else's movement (Rolex)
  
• Buy out by Swatch
  
• Become a more recognized brand by using somebody else's more affordable movement (ETA)
  
• Fight being seen as a cheap copout company by creating the Manifattura line of watches with expensive in-house mechanics
  
  
  

  The Review

  
  Enough chit-chat. Now...we dance.
  
  

  

  
  
  Depending on how picky you are, the watch out of the box is not in fact that bad. Nothing glaringly cries fake to the standard eye, unless you are a Paneristi in which case, there are MANY what I consider to be minor faults.
  
  The cannon pinion is reasonably flat and I don't see any need to change to the ETA H3 high cannon pinion.
  
  The crown guard lever sits reasonably snug...no chance of it flying open without it being flipped up by the handle (a flaw easily corrected by sending the crown guard feet with sandpaper wrapped around a chopstick).
  
  The dial could do with some Chieftang AR if it wasn't for the cyclops crystal making that not possible.
  
  

  

  
  
  Flaws include:
  

  • Slightly bumpy zit of a Crown Guard (CG) pin (this is one of the biggest flaws on most rep PAMs)
    
  • Curved shaping to the face of the CG
    
  • Different font on the bezel markers
    
  • Flat vs. matte bezel markers
    
  • Almost "Black" lume at 12 and 6-o-clock and running seconds subdial
    
  • Thin date font
    
  • Shallow (but still recessed) running seconds at 3 subdial
    
  • Slightly different sized letters on dial (hard to see)
    
  • Pearl looks to have more "fill" on the lume on the gen vs. the rep
    

  All in all...not too bad I think.

  The rep is powered by a non-chrono A7750 to get the running seconds at 3. As usual for the A7750 movement, the rotor was loud, but the movement ran fine with solid power reserve.

  

  The caseback lettering on the bottom row with the serial and model number are too big, but even still, quite nicely captured...especially the exact numbering and edition as the gen pic...hmmmm...what picture did they use for the rep manufacturing??

  

  On the bracelet, the watch has heft. It's a bit big...but fun in an IN YOUR FACE kind of way. Changing straps on PAMs is half the fun. They change the look of the piece so much and can really change the comfort factor as well.

  The rubber strap is a bit soft, but the deployment is nice.

  A minor, but still nagging flaw to me was that CG pin. Others have been bugged by the thin datefont...but being a Destro left-handed model, this was not something that could be fixed easily as most aftermarket datewheels with nice font are not printed in an "upside down" model for Destro's with the numbers being readable on the left hand side of the dial.

  The Zigmeister of course, will manufacture a fantastic custom CG pin on his lathe and I was very close to having him do the work...but, as others who have started modding know (Teejay...I'm talking about YOU), there is something very rewarding about trying to do things yourself...even if it takes a bit of trial and error. After all, I don't have 1500kg of power tools in the workshop for nothing!!

  

  C'est la vie!

  The Mods

  To fix the CG pin flaw, I used a dremel as detailed below to go from stock to better than stock.

  

  

  Remove CG screw #1

  

  Flip up lever and remove screw #2

  

  Remove CG

  

  Note damage to screw head from incorrect sized screwdriver slippage (not me)

  

  Remove curvature of CG face using 180 grit paper for quick material removal

  

  Sand on hard flat surface parallel to vertical plane of CG so brush marks are lined up with vertical edges

  

  Once face is as flat as you want it, switch to 240 grit paper to smoothen out the "brushed" effect

  

  By this stage, the face will be a nice finish, but the CG pin will have disappeared being blended with the CG

  

  Flip CG onto piece of wood and use a flat pin and hammer to slightly tap out CG pin

  

  CG pin sticking up

  

  Use a dremel and standard polishing compound with a small pointy polishing bit

  

  Polish the top of the CG pin head...and tap pin back down gently!!

  

  Nice!!

  

  Reinstalled!!

  

  Because a PAM is not a PAM without a trip to The Zigmeister!!

  Lumed dial, hands and pearl with Zig's C3/C1 tritium mix to match the T Swiss T dial. The gen is more white than yellow but I wanted the slightly aged tritium look that I have on my gen's with aged tritium.

  

  Another gratuitous lume close-up...Paint by Numbers The Zigmeister Style!

  

  Scorchin'!!

  The C1/C3 lume mix is nice and bright in a green glow. It's not super bright like the BGW9 blue lume Zig did on my 2006 CD, but that's due to the lume used, and the darker base colour of the existing crappy factory lume. The lume is legible in low light throughout the night.

  

  Zig also serviced the A7750 non-chrono movement and it is quiet and now reliable.

  

  Pre-mods

  

  Pre-mods

  

  Pre-mods

  Big thanks to The Zigmeister for the work. Class act and a fine result as always.

  Big thanks to HackR for selling me this piece.

  Hope you folks found this interesting and useful.

  

lmao If Clive, Jean and I opperated like that RWG would have been a one pony circus when the flock left

Aaah Clive...I miss his avatar...even the "censored" version.

Welcome aboard...great introduction with a nice little collection. You just found a great community of watch nuts that will not only provide you the info you need...but the fuel for a passion.

Big thanks to O/S...a total class act and a real contribution to the community.

That looks great. The OR buckle is indeed a great addition.

I would also recommend one of the diamond Datejusts...they're all not too bad...with ETA movements...pretty reliable, serviceable and accurate out of the box.

Will it re-insert properly with the movement out of the case? It's sometimes harder to do in the case.

You should be turning the crown slightly clockwise when re-inserting. When the gears start turning, that is the point where you should turn and push a little harder to re-insert.

Anyway - I'm starting to think that RWG is the best watch forum period (no need to qualify gen or rep). I've learned more here on how watches work and are repaired than any other I've frequented due to the INCREDIBLE GENEROSITY of men like The Zigmeister (and Bazz, Fidestro, Ubi, By-Tor, Freddy etc.).

You got that right...I've learned so much here...and have had my watch passion fuelled. And my Zig Lume needs met too...what else could you want?

I'm here for the avatars...Shundi, Hike and Gio...where are you??? I didn't even know there were watches here. BTW, what is this thing called "replica" anyways??

BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND...an accurate moon watch (albeit likely auto using the new tight spacing tricompax A7750 vs. a tight subdial spacing manual wind) has been wanted and discussed...but has yet to materialize.

So...options:

• VISUALLY ACCURATE: El cheapo quartz...$100...proper subdial spacing...proper functioning...the caseback everybody wants is alright...great deal...but quartz
  
• SMOOTH SWEEP LESS ACCURATE: Sea Gull ST1902 manual wind...solid movement...incorrect wide subdial spacing...should get the 6-o-clock subdial freeze mod (see my signature for tutorial)...still a good looking watch...display back is inaccurate but the movement is a looker and is a column wheel chrono similar in appearance to the gen which as stated above often had display backs installed
  
• ANNIVERSARY EDITION: I like this version of the watch...others don't...solid movement...looks great in person
  

Whether or not you can get the proper plexi crystal or a the newer sapphire crystal is a different issue. The "Moon Watch" has so many variants in the gen world even though the only real moon watch is the manual hesalite crystal one...but still referred to as a "Moon Watch" are the Anniversary editions, auto versions, mid-sized (small sized) versions, etc, etc...just to make things more confusing.

I say screw accuracy...get the 50th Anniversary one...looks great...with manual wind rather than quartz...or the 40th Annviversary Apollo one is nice too with the medallion...but haven't seen an actual review of a rep of this one yet.