Odd “clicking” Sound From 2824-2

[omega1]

Hello all,

I have an SMP with an ETA 2824-2. Today I noticed an odd sound during winding (not manually). I was using the automatic movement to wind the watch, making like a swirling motion when I noticed a “click” that was very repetitive. For every 4 turns of my “swirling” motion, I would here one click.

I took the case back off, and proceeded to watch the movement very closely while turning the rotor by finger to see what the clicking was. What I discovered was the gear that engages the manual winding system (forgive my lack of proper watch part terminology) was “rearing” back and then snapping forward. The gear I am talking about is this one:

Is it supposed to do that during winding with the rotor? When I pull the crown out to the winding position, and then turn the crown in the direction you would to wind, the gear moves forward (or up, depending on your view) to engage the other gears as it should. Then I turn the crown slightly counter clockwise, then the gear then retracts. But even after using the crown to retract it, if I spin the rotor, I see the gear rear back and snap forward again. It’s almost as if the gear is not fully disengaging from the rest of the winding movement. Is that normal for the 2824-2? Or do I have an issue that needs to be looked at? Thanks in advance for any input.

Jim

[omega1]

Here is a video of what I am talking about (PLEASE RIGHT CLICK AND SAVE TARGET AS to save my bandwidth)

http://www.cardboardrobot.net/ecb/MVI_0037.avi

Hopefully you can see what I am refering to (video is not very clear).

Jim

[ajoesmith]

Here is a video of what I am talking about (PLEASE RIGHT CLICK AND SAVE TARGET AS to save my bandwidth)

http://www.cardboardrobot.net/ecb/MVI_0037.avi

Hopefully you can see what I am refering to (video is not very clear).

Jim

Hi Jim

I had a look at the video but im not sure if that is normal or not. Maybe someone who is more experienced can answer the question.

sorry i havent been any help

good luck

[omega1]

Hi Jim

I had a look at the video but im not sure if that is normal or not. Maybe someone who is more experienced can answer the question.

sorry i havent been any help

good luck

Ok, thanks though. I know there has to be someone out there that has a 2824-2 that can do the same test to it to see if theirs does it as well!

Jim

[omega1]

All I really need is for someone out there with a 2824-2 to do the same "test" with theirs like in my little video, to see if that gear does the same thing. If it does, then I know it is normal. If it does not, then I know I have a problem. Any takers?

Thanks,

Jim

Edited August 18, 2006 by omega1

[omega1]

Ok, so after searching the internet for a couple of hours, I finally found an exploded view of the 2824-2. Turns out the gear I am questioning is the crown wheel (420 on the diagram). It looks like there is no bushing for it. The center hole for the crown wheel is over sized, and the crown wheel screw has a large washer to hold the crown wheel in place. From what I can see, it is designed that the crown wheel is supposed to have some “slop” in it to move back and forth. Am I seeing that correctly?

I also see a “U” shaped spring (430 on the diagram) called the click spring. Number 425 on the diagram is the click. Does the click spring control the movement of the click, or the crown wheel? If it controls the crown wheel, then maybe I have a broken click spring?

Thoughts?

Jim

[Usil]

Note that it appears the hub that the gear fits on is eccentric. This would cause it to rotate off center and may look like a back and forth mothion if guided by the watch mechanism. Don't know why this is needed and I am only making a guess.

Usil

[omega1]

I agree Usil. I appears that the design allows for the crown wheel to move around. What I need to know now, is if the crown wheel is supposed to "snap" towards the ratchet wheel when the rotor is turned.

[Usil]

Curious. Someone here must have the answer.

Usil

[marrickvilleboy]

ok, I've tried to d/l your file, but it just keeps crashing when it hits the last second for some strange reason =(

My prognosis is this, the gear that you have in the diagram circled is called the "rachet wheel", also the "clutch wheel" which is the small wheel that is perpendicular to the rachet and drives the rachet when you wind the watch manual via the stem, now generally speaking, these 2 parts should be coinciding smoothly, no jerks no compromise in consistency.

What you have there is from my experience in watchmaking very minor, the occurance is generally caused by having the click spring not fitted properly, so when the screw on top of the rachet wheel is screwed down, the actual rachet wheel does not do its job.

Your options are of course to have it repaired. Remember, if you attempt to do a DIY job, please be weary of the click spring which is very commonly lost when dismantling that area.

I will give you some steps in which to handle this if you do attempt to do this yourself (any watchsmith can fix this for you in 5 minutes)

1. release the power of the watch so there is no tension in the mainspring.

2. Although we were taught to dismantle in a order that best suits our ability to test and onserve the movement as we go, in your case, you can just dismantle the mainspring bridge plate - only where the rachet and crown wheel are at.

3. The screw on top of the rachet is left-threaded. Make sure you remove the crown wheel first.

4. you will need to place the click spring against the click itself so it provides an in and out process for the rachet wheel.

Good luck and let me know if you run into any problems.

[omega1]

Marrick,

Thank you very much for the info. I think I may have confused myself though. The gear that I have circled in the actual color picture (first post) is the gear that is snapping. It is also the same gear that is labeled as number 420 in the drawn diagram ( I now see that other little black gear that you are referring to). According to the tech sheet on the ETA 2824-2, number 420 is the crown wheel, and 415 is the ratchet wheel. I suppose it is possible that the tech sheet is mislabeled however.

The issue that I have is not with the meshing of those 2 perpendicular gears. It seems to be with the meshing of gear 420 and 415. When I hand wind, every thing is nice and smooth. It’s when the rotor is turned that 420 snaps.

Perhaps you can PM me your e-mail address, and I can send you the video that way.

To be honest, I am not even sure that I have a problem. It is quite possible that all 2824’s do the same thing that mine is doing. I am just trying to get someone with that same movement to do the same “test” as in the video and see if they get the same results. If they do, then I am good. If they don’t, then I know I need to find a watchmaker!

Jim

[kingkitesurf]

I have the same issue with the MBW I have. But in my case its a 2836. Handwinding does not work at all and the rotor clicks. It does not run anymore unless I go round with the rotor for 15 minutes. I opened the watch and saw that one wheel missed a lot of teeth. The wheel gets pushed a bit but then snaps back making this weird sound.... what to do

[omega1]

I have the same issue with the MBW I have. But in my case its a 2836. Handwinding does not work at all and the rotor clicks. It does not run anymore unless I go round with the rotor for 15 minutes. I opened the watch and saw that one wheel missed a lot of teeth. The wheel gets pushed a bit but then snaps back making this weird sound.... what to do

Ouch! Sorry to hear that. But it sounds like you may have a different problem then I.

EDIT: I just read your thread and saw the gear. I have a sneaking suspicion that mine will be doing that same thing. Bazz was kind enough to test out his 2824-2 the same way I did mine. He said that his crown wheel also snaps back toward the ratchet wheel like mine. I have a feeling that all 2824’s do it. That being said, you have 2 gears that are constantly snapping against each other. It’s just a matter of time before the teeth start breaking. How old is that movement?

[marrickvilleboy]

aahhh i know what you are trying to explain now....

yes, if you rotate the rotor you will get a synchronised "click" sound due to the rachet wheel turning over and colliding with the actual click.

All is normal mate, no need to worry.

[Finepics]

The rotor and winding crown act on the same parts so the wheel will snap out of engagement to allow the rotor to wind the watch. As has been said this is quite normal for this movt.

[omega1]

aahhh i know what you are trying to explain now....

yes, if you rotate the rotor you will get a synchronised "click" sound due to the rachet wheel turning over and colliding with the actual click.

All is normal mate, no need to worry.

Hmmm, not really. The click that I am hearing is crown wheel, 420 snapping back towards the ratchet wheel, 415. I think we both maybe using different terminology, and that is what is confusing both of this. Let me try it this way:

In the above pic, gear "A" is the one that I am seeing move. When the rotor spins, gear "A" moves in the direction of the green arrow. After about 2 turns of the rotor, gear "A" then snaps back toward gear "B".

I think this is happening because when the rotor moves, it spins gear "B". Gear "B" can't move as it is engaged with gear "A", and gear "A" can't move because the click has it locked. So when "B" spins and "A" is locked by the click, "B" appears to be pushing "A" in the direction of the green arrow. The 2 gears then get to a point where the teeth are no longer meshed, but rather tip to tip. Then "B" moves just a little more (because of the rotor) and then the teeth of the 2 gears are in a position to mesh together again, so "A" snaps back towards it. My guess is that it is the click spring is what pushes "A" back towards "B" when the teeth line up again.

At no time does "A" spin. It just moves in the direction of the green arrow.

It is quite possible that this is perfectly normal. Every thing that I can see points to this being how the movement was designed to work. It just seems odd to me to have 2 gears slamming into each other all the time. That is why I am trying to find out if indeed the movement is supposed to work like this, or if I have a problem that needs to be addressed. I hope that explanation was a little more clear on what I am seeing. If not, please let me know and I will try to explain it better.

Thanks!

Jim

[omega1]

An update to this "problem". Just got a new Yachmaster with a 2836-2 in it. Did the same test to the 2836-2 and low and behold the 2836-2 does the same thing!

Looks like this is just the normal operation of this movement (as some of you have already said). Odd that ETA would have 2 gears slamming into each other like that, but I guess it is what it is.

Jim

[Finepics]

An update to this "problem". Just got a new Yachmaster with a 2836-2 in it. Did the same test to the 2836-2 and low and behold the 2836-2 does the same thing!

Looks like this is just the normal operation of this movement (as some of you have already said). Odd that ETA would have 2 gears slamming into each other like that, but I guess it is what it is.

Jim

Well they don't exactly slam into each other. They are designed that when the crown is turned one direction the gear moves out of engagement with the winding mechanism to allow the date to be set then moves back in when winding (not sure if I really expalined that right) - don't worry as they are not under any real force and this is how they are meant to be.

[omega1]

Well they don't exactly slam into each other. They are designed that when the crown is turned one direction the gear moves out of engagement with the winding mechanism to allow the date to be set then moves back in when winding (not sure if I really expalined that right) - don't worry as they are not under any real force and this is how they are meant to be.

Ahh, I think you are describing something different then what I was witnessing. If you watch my video, you will see gear 420 snap back at gear 415.

Jim

[Finepics]

OK - This silver coloured gear is driven by the crown/stem and moves into and out of mesh with the brass winding gear (just above it) which is connected to the mainspring barrel. It moves into mesh with the brass gear when you wind the watch with the winding crown - then when watch is wound, and while wearing it, the rotor takes over the winding/topping up of the mainspring and the silver gear moves away from the brass gear so as to disconnect itself from the mainspring otherwise the rotor would be trying to wind the crown/stem as well. The rotor connects with the two little gears to the left of centre in the top photo and they are connected to the mainspring barrel - these gears have a clutch mechanism that allows them to freewheel when the crown is turned otherwise the rotor would spin round like mad when winding the watch (if you remove the rotor and wind with the crown you will see these gears spinning but the weight of the rotor when attached is enough to allow the clutch in the gears to activate). So - this is perfectly normal and necessary to prevent damage to the rotor gears. As I said these parts are not hammering into each other - they might make a clicking noise when operating but that's all it is - just a clicking noise and if it did not do this the watch would not work.