Waterproof or not?: A guide to help your rep survive the drink.

[gioarmani]

Since seeing a great deal of posts over time regarding this issue, here's a bit of a layman's tutorial on how to help waterproof your watches.

Contrary to popular belief, these rep watches are more waterproof than they're given credit for--the sports models, mind you--not the more refined "banker's" watches like Vacheron Constantin, Patek, etc. It's worth the extra $15, or whatever your area watch repair shops currently charge to have it pressure tested (if you're state-side, google the stores Fast Fix, Precision Time, etc.--they test any watch on site, for cheap--Precision Time even uses the good 6-10 ATM vacuum tester, not the Bergeon water one).

I've yet to have one of my own pieces (or one I've tested for somebody else) that failed waterproofing, and living on the water in Florida, I swim & shower in all of mine, constantly. There's nothing I can think of more horologically absurd looking than the guys with the multi-thousand dollar sports watches who take them off before stepping into the pool. Genuine or not, nothing screams "fake" faster than a diving watch that can't get wet...

I've always tried to do my homework to make sure the reps I purchased were well researched (i.e. closest to gen as I could get), and even went through good measure to modify them even more so--including religiously re-greasing & testing my watches a minimum of twice a year simply so that I can swim and dive in them...without worry.

Some examples of what's possible to achieve with proper treatment:

My SS Sub 16610 always tested solid to 6 ATMs & was swam in chlorine pools regularly.

My 16610 LV tested the same and hit both the pool and the ocean for snorkeling.

My SMP chrono tested to 10 ATMs & also went down to nearly 100 ft, and was in the pool on almost a daily basis.

My PAM 051 also tested to 6 ATMs and was also in the pool almost every day I had it.

My SSD V2 tested to 6 ATMs but for some reason it never managed to see anything more than the inside of a shower.

My DSSD V3 tested to 10 ATMs as well.

My V5 also tested to 10 ATMs and has been down to around 80 feet; it also sees daily showers and the occasional lap swim.

Keep in mind--as stated earlier--these have all been treated with silicon grease and sealed up tighter than a crab's ass. I would NEVER take a rep straight from the box into the water. Never. I don't care if you actually paid extra for your dealer to supposedly "waterproof" the piece for you; I can guarantee you through personal experience it didn't happen. QC is simply non-existent for reps when it comes to water-damage--loose case-backs, incorrectly seated crystal gaskets, no grease on the O-rings, etc.

The only pieces I've ever had that didn't hit the water were my Presidential, the DateJust, and my 116520.

And they were all tested, and my smith didn't exactly say they completely failed, but did say he "wouldn't trust them". Not having a triple-lock crown is reason enough to stay out of the drink (i.e. Datejusts, DayDates, etc.) The Daytona I never took swimming as I was paranoid about how tight the pushers were seated.

That being said, metal on metal is impossible to water-proof; it's all about the O-rings & gaskets. And the more points of entry you have to a watch--HEVs, chrono-pushers, crystals, casebacks, etc.--the more possibilities you have for leakage.

Short story:

All three parts of the triple-lock system (non-Rolex models will probably only have two of the following three) and case-back will need to be greased:

1) The crown's inside gasket

2) the tube's outer gasket, and

3) the tube's inner gasket

If you have silicon grease, at least apply some to the back gasket & tube gaskets if you can't get it pressure tested. This is the trick to water-tightness; well lubricated gaskets. It's actually the rubber that seals the watch--metal on metal does absolutely nothing for waterproofing. Also make sure the crown is screwed down tight (not too tight--as in not wrenching it down with all your might), and make sure the caseback is on tight as well. No offense to anyone who's tried, but please don't try those ridiculous homemade pressure tests like dropping your rep in a glass of hot water looking for bubbles...

*sigh*

No need to fear the anti-rep wrath of an AD either--go to your local el-cheapo watch or jewelry repair store/kiosk; almost all have pressure testers for watches and generally charge between $10-$20 dollars to test it. I can't stress enough how important this is if you want proof-positive assurance that your piece is now sealed properly. And a $15 test is a lot cheaper than a movement overhaul.

And the not-so-short story:

If you want to go the full monty and seal your fake HEV from the inside and completely mod out the watch, check out my DSSD mod-tutorial:

If you only want to seal the HEV & grease it, then here it is...

Buy some two-ply marine waterproofing epoxy (colors and brands will vary)

Remove your case-back and crown--since there is no 36.5mm die on the open market until 2010, the DSSDs require an adjustable case-back wrench (easily and inexpensively found on Amazon or eBay)

Regular 40mm Rolex cases will simply take a normal 29.5 mm die

Release the crown by GENTLY depressing this button with nothing smaller than a 1.1mm flathead screwdriver--pull the crown out from the time-set position while depressing the release button--take care to NOT push the release all the down, unless you like rebuilding keyless works or paying someone else to do it.

Remove the screws holding the movement and set the movement aside.

Mix a small amount of equal portions of the epoxy

With a sharp point, apply enough to fill the HEV's hole, and just slightly past the hole to insure against seepage

Allow this to completely cure before putting the movement back in--drying time will vary from hours to overnight, depending on brand.

After putting the movement back in, be sure to grease the case-back gasket:

And all three parts of the triple-lock system (non-Rolex models will probably only have two of the following three):

1) The crown's inside gasket

2) the tube's outer gasket, and

3) the tube's inner gasket

Now, simply reinsert the crown and tighten down the case-back. Your watch should now be tighter than a Neverland Ranch visitor.

....

However, as people often do, if you do wind up swimming or even showering in the watch without greasing it, and it does wind up fogging under the crystal, it's leaking--IMMEDIATELY remove the case-back, and pull the crown all the way out to the time-set position (this will also stop the movement from running on those movements with hacking features--2836-2, 7750s, etc.). Find a bucket of Damp-rid (Calcium Chloride):

...and place the watch inside as soon as you can. Open the package, seal the watch inside with the lid, and leave it overnight; it will completely remove any moisture in the watch. Of course, because of the leakage, you'll eventually have to find someone to oil the watch. Light, non-salt water leaks aren't too serious, but for longevity's sake, they'll probably need an oiling sooner than they would without a leak

http://www.damprid.com/

NOTE:

On the subject, there's sort of a catch-22 to water leakage...

In a swimming pool or spa, you're in contact with chlorine, which shrinks gaskets and could lead to leaking (rare, and usually if it's been a while since the gaskets were greased); but chlorine water won't rust or completely destroy the movement like salt-water will. But with swimming in the ocean there's obviously no chlorine, so the salt-water is fine on the gaskets, but salt-water completely destroys movements. So your piece might be water-tight from the box, but please grease it first, because if it leaks, it's damned if you do & damned if you don't.

It only takes a few minutes; then you can pay a visit to your local watch repair shop and they should be able to test it for you for about $15. It only takes five minutes and will save you hundreds of dollars/pounds/Euros/Yuan/Yen.

Hope this helps you take a bit of weight off your shoulders and maybe procure a well-deserved dip, as well (I hope it's been entertaining at the very least).

Good luck, and take care!

[gioarmani]

Oh...you probably just didn't notice it to begin with, but the DeepSeas all come slightly ajar. The case-backs on the DSSDs are made similar to that of the gens, and on the most of the non-Asian reps straight from the box, about 99% aren't completely secured all the way down, and can't be.

The reason why you won't be able to get it completely secured down is for the same reason that Rolex refuses to even let their own ADs service the gen DSSDs and instead sends them all back to Zurich: it takes a serious amount of pressure to secure the DSSD case-back down correctly in order to truly withstand 12,800 feet of pressure and no one except for Rolex has a machine than can test to those depths. Not to mention, the DeepSea takes a 36.5mm case-back opener which is unavailable on the open-market because Rolex still holds the patent, and because they don't want anyone else opening the watch, they aren't releasing the aftermarket part until 2010--the first DSSDs were sold in '08, with 2 year warranties so it will be at least 2010 before we see the correct sized die or wrench to open them.

[offshore]

Great post Gio!

Were the pusher seals on the SMP fitted with O Rings, and only required greasing, or did you have to add/modify?

A little point re the Deep Sea case back. Bergeon do put out a caseback tool which will work on it. It is the 5338 2F, which is a T bar, with a range of interchangeable tips, including fluted for Rolex. It is adjustable to varying diameters. Unfortunately they are as dear as poison to buy retail... I was fortunate enough to score one in a "Job lot" I picked up! A wonderful tool, but obviously a choice normally, only for the VERY serious watch maker.

We will let this run for a while in GD, so all can see it and comment, but definetly sticky material here!

Thanks for the input.

Offshore.

PS Do I recognise that Presidential?

[gioarmani]

To the PS: I believe you do!

Thanks a lot for the (eventual) sticky upgrade.

Due to price fright, I won;t even bother googling that part you mentioned...

As to my SMP chrono, no modding, just the existing o-rings.

[offshore]

Due to price fright, I won;t even bother googling that part you mentioned...

Small change out of U$400, I believe!!!

Glad to see the old girl is still breathing.... she was an ex Eddie Lee ETA from memory!

Thanks

O/S

[Jkay]

Oh...you probably just didn't notice it to begin with, but the DeepSeas all come slightly ajar. The case-backs on the DSSDs are made similar to that of the gens, and on the most of the non-Asian reps straight from the box, about 99% aren't completely secured all the way down, and can't be.

Ok so I don't fully understand; the DSSD case-back can't fully seat but still pressure tests to 10ATM in your situation? This doesn't compute .. can you explain further please?

Oh and since Im a newb .. 10ATM is 330ft? Maybe?

[gioarmani]

Ok so I don't fully understand; the DSSD case-back can't fully seat but still pressure tests to 10ATM in your situation? This doesn't compute .. can you explain further please?

Oh and since Im a newb .. 10ATM is 330ft? Maybe?

A $50 Timex would probably test to that depth, if properly mainteained. It's pretty deep for pressure on an unprotected human body, but as far as diving technology goes, it's not that deep. It's actually much easier to bring a man (or watch) back in from the vacuum of space than it is to bring him up from 1000 ft.

So, yes 10ATMs is equal to 330 ft. Basically, this watch tested to a minimum of 330 feet below sea level. And even though I don't know of anyone with a machine that goes beyond 10 ATMs, I seriously think this rep--after mods--could easily go further than 330 ft.

(To extrapolate, the marine epoxy I used is guaranteed to withstand 2000psi of pressure, and each ATM is aprox 14 psi. So is this stuff really good to 2000 psi, or 142 ATMs, or 4600 feet?...hmmm...)

In other words, one ATM is equal to approximately 14 pounds per square inch (equivalent to the surface pressure at sea level; you're already at 2 ATMs by simply sticking your arm in the pool), and that the pressure changes for "atmospheres" (ATM) that occur at an intervals of 1 ATM of change per every additional 33 ft of depth. So, at surface level you're already at 33 ft worth of pressure, or 1 ATM... up to the 33 feet mark you're at 2 ATMs--1 ATM for the depth PLUS the 1 ATM already present at the surface, for a total of two ATMs. Up to 99 feet, we're under that surface ATM, plus another 2 for a total of 3 ATMs, and so on.

If I'm remembering correctly, essentially, "air" pressure decreases with altitude and "water" pressure increases with depth--like the principle behind a barometer with varying height, I guess. Because water is denser than air, the pressure increases more rapidly as you descend.

To understand the reason why it's important to know the difference between air & water pressure is that air's volume in a certain space is reduced proportionate to the water pressure surrounding it. At 2 ATMs the volume of air is halved, even though the density is doubled. At 3 ATMs the air is at a third of surface volume, and so on. At 2 ATMs the volume of air is halved, but the density is doubled, at 3 ATM it is tripled, because the waterr pressure is tripled as well. Understand?

In other words, the air within a confined space will expand proportionally as pressure is reduced. For example, moving from 2 ATM to 1 ATM (from 66 to 33 feet, or even from 33 feet to the surface), the air in a closed container will double. This is why it's necessarily not the submersion (the dive) that will kill you, it's the surfacing that will.

Basically, the deeper you go, the greater the water pressure on the timepiece and the greater pressure on the air trapped inside. It is this very difference in volume & density that makes the air want to expand & escape (thus letting air out while letting water in) or, worst case scenario, causes the crystal to explode from the watch, destroying it. This is why past 600 feet, your skull will implode, and not explode.

Illustrated on the atmosphere-to-psi calculator here...:

http://www.lenntech.com/unit-conversion-calculator/pressure.htm

...the pressure exerted on this DSSD at 10 ATMs, or 330 ft, was approximately 147 pounds of pressure per square inch.

Fascinating, ain't it?

Edited August 1, 2009 by gioarmani

[Jkay]

Since a watch retaining full structural integrity is in essence a pressure vessel, I would hope that NO force is being exerted upon the air inside the case (at depth)

But thank you for your voluminous reply You are the reason I have this DSSDv5 on my wrist as we speak. And btw, I have an appt with Zig to have it modded and serviced.

Thinking about this, it seems a simple solution to seat the DSSD caseback would be to build a jig out of Delrin to safely support the case from the front as you set the piece in an arbor press ... and squuuuish the caseback with the press ... and then tighten the screwback down until it seats. Or am I misunderstanding about which part is not seating.

Oh and the reason I am asking these pointed questions is that my cousins (identical twins) were USN rescue divers during their service and still dive every chance they get, owning their own gear. When they saw my DSSD this past weekend, their eyes bugged out and their FIRST QUESTION after I told them it was a rep was "Is it depth rated?" .. haha so now I can provide an answer.

[gioarmani]

Correct. Pressure on the exterior of the watch (water pressure) increases exponentially as depth increases. But the pressure within the watch (the air's pressure, or density) exponentially decreases as depth increases. So the threat of exploding crystals isn't a threat upon submerging, it's a threat upon emerging. Remember, the biggest danger posed to any diver isn't going down, it's always coming back up. The only threat to the watch while descending would be leaking--as the exterior water pressure increases and the interior air's density decreases, it's easier for water to force its way in.

[gioarmani]

Thinking about this, it seems a simple solution to seat the DSSD caseback would be to build a jig out of Delrin to safely support the case from the front as you set the piece in an arbor press ... and squuuuish the caseback with the press ... and then tighten the screwback down until it seats. Or am I misunderstanding about which part is not seating.

I doubt it.

And the reason why is, even the odd rep that actually does come with an inner compression ring (like Josh's "Ultimate"), I doubt very seriously they're fully functional. And if they're not--or if your particular model doesn't even have one--then that kind of pressure is going to damage or destroy the case:

Using the above pic as a reference, If you remove both piece 1 & 2 from the case, then screw on only piece 1, you'll find that is does go all the way down, no sweat. When the inner piece, piece 2, is added to the mix and piece 1 is screwed back down, it won't go as far. And no, milling a few layers off piece 2 won't change anything either, except making the gasket sit at the wrong height, thus not sealing the case-back properly, which will inevitably lead to serious leaking.

And because most of the cheaper 21J models don't have two-piece case-backs, they don't have that problem--but they sure as hell couldn't take that amount of depth pressure:

Oh and the reason I am asking these pointed questions is that my cousins (identical twins) were USN rescue divers during their service and still dive every chance they get, owning their own gear. When they saw my DSSD this past weekend, their eyes bugged out and their FIRST QUESTION after I told them it was a rep was "Is it depth rated?" .. haha so now I can provide an answer.

If you're trying to pull of that you've got a gen DSSD, then the depth rating would be 12,800 ft, or 3900 meters, or 387 ATMs, or withstanding 5,418 PSI (lbs of pressure per sq in). If you're going with the fact that it's a rep and not a gen (if yours was properly sealed, greased, and tested), then it would have a depth rating of 330 ft, or 100 meters, or 140 PSI.

Edited August 1, 2009 by gioarmani

[trailboss]

Just about the best general info post on Pressure testing/water proofing I'v seen on any of the fora. Well done!

With reference to the water proofing of Daytonas have a looky HERE

Col.

[Jkay]

OH I see now. You're saying that piece 1 .. the compression ring .. does not seat fully. I thought you meant piece 2 .. the "titanium" piece .. doesn't seat. HAHA .. as you could imagine, the watch would not be water tight if the "titanium" piece wasn't seated fully. I was picturing a semi-compressed rubber gasket under piece 2, unable to be fully compressed by a Bergeon tool twisting the compression ring. Hence my suggestion for an arbor press. Thank you for your intricate and well-pictorialized replies. Amazing!

Is the main point of failure on these reps the "HE valve"?

I'm very surprised that the gasket on #2 is not on the bottom .. instead of the sides. Unless ... is that gasket sitting in an L shaped ridge? The photos are deceiving.

[gioarmani]

You're welcome. Neither of those pieces is the compression ring, though.

The compression ring is the primary functional internal case part that flexes to absorb the external case pressure (you can see the top of the compression ring when looking at the front of the watch--it's the piece that reads "ORIGINAL GAS ESCAPE VALVE--RING LOCK SYSTEM). It comprises the middle of the inside case, between the crystal and the bottom of the case:

Part "R"

EDIT: Yes, the HEV is a big leak problem. The next two worse would be the case-back, and then the crown, respectively.

Edited August 1, 2009 by gioarmani

[gioarmani]

Just about the best general info post on Pressure testing/water proofing I'v seen on any of the fora. Well done!

With reference to the water proofing of Daytonas have a looky HERE

Col.

Thanks!

[Jkay]

I just noticed that the HE valve on my DSSDv5 is spring loaded to press IN ... that's insane. Water pressure will just depress the HE valve and it'll fill the watch. Note the Rolex documentation you've provided .. an HE valve is supposed to open outwards .. not press inwards. That's just nuts.

[gioarmani]

Unfortunately. They all do now....

[trailboss]

I just noticed that the HE valve on my DSSDv5 is spring loaded to press IN ... that's insane. Water pressure will just depress the HE valve and it'll fill the watch. Note the Rolex documentation you've provided .. an HE valve is supposed to open outwards .. not press inwards. That's just nuts.

Oh Lordy, WTF?????

Sometimes ya realy gotta wonder . . .

Col.

[laskos]

A thanks from me!

I will try waterproofing my ceramic sub, that had some fail in the sea..

The crystal get fog from inside after 12 hours from swimming.

Perhaps the case back was a little loose, after i had open it to regulate the rate. I had close it with a sticky ball.

I opened the watch with my fingers, so i think the caseback was loose and left the watch open to dry for some hours. No visible water inside. Seems to keep perfect rate.

[rrari1]

This is an amazing post. It should be pinned.

[juan.sidarta]

btw is that pam gen? If not, where did u get it from?

[Jkay]

btw is that pam gen? If not, where did u get it from?

Are you asking about my signature photos? That is a normal, unmodded replica PAM 390 on a stock replica strap that's been worked over with leather cleaning lotion to make it look and feel better.

If you go to any main dealer site and search 390 you'll find it.

http://www.trustytime.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=37_55&products_id=9144