Cortebert Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 (edited) I have always admired the Hamilton 917 movement, its one of the prettiest movements around, its also solid well made and dependable, probably because of its history as a US railroad watch The first time I saw a Hamilton used as a project watch was when I saw a beautifully engraved 917 built by Tourby Watches.... I decided I had to have one of these movements ....but... in a Pam. The obvious choice would have been a Fiddy due to the ample size. However, I wanted one in a Pam 45mm, that’s when the fun and games began as its not as easy as I first thought. The Build: Hamilton 917’s don’t drop into 45mm Pam, in short just about nothing fits. The first job was to totally strip the watch, every cog, spring and screw was removed, I even unravelled the main spring. Whilst the watch was in bits, I ground the chassis down to fit the Pam. Next was to adapt the stem to fit a Pam crown. First problem is that the threads are different sizes. I cut the stem to the precise size (it has to be very accurate) then I filed the threads down to just the right amount inserted into the Pam crown and soldered in place as one sold piece, it’s now solid as a rock. Dial and Super Lume: I ordered a dial “without” the words Panerai and super lumed it with the worlds brightest lume (according to the manufacturers). Hands: None of the Hands fitted so I fabricated a new set, I am not happy with them and plan to build another set as soon as I have the right parts. Crown Guard: I used the hot glue method for the crown guard pin then filed the pin down to leave a flush fit, this was the easiest part of the build and refreshing to do. Housing and Cystal: I used a sapphire crystal and removed all the AR, I prefer it without AR and hate the blue tint (dead fake giveaway). I may have it AR’ed but for now I am happy with it. I removed all the AR by hand (you don’t need a Dremel if you haven't got one). To remove AR I used a Brillo Pad which is wire wool with a cleaning agent used to clean pans and ovens. Wire wool is a great glass cleaner, it doesn’t scratch glass as most people assume, steel or wire wool is nowhere near as hard as glass... The Rebuild: Reassembled the movement and gave it a full service, it runs a treat and keeps excellent time. After this the rebuild was easy, all the hands are very firmly fitted and not as weak as the Pam hands we are used to. The movement dropped into the case nicely so all that was left was to fit the strap that I bought off CharlieUK , which is what made me start the project in the first place. Hope you enjoy/ed my explanation and the images below, I am satisfied with the result so far, its a little extra special as its my first build, there is a great deal of satisfaction to be had from building the watch you wear. I would encourage others to follow suit... It’s not as hard as it may appear, and a great way to learn but I appreciate the 917 may not be everyone’s way to gain an apprenticeship of sorts .... Edited October 4, 2009 by Cortebert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbard Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 This is stunning. Great work! I believe I'll try something like this at some point when I get the skill and nerve... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormTooper4 Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 That ROCKS , sterling effort and some seriously good work very impressive Well done that man ST4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cortebert Posted October 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 That ROCKS , sterling effort and some seriously good work very impressive Well done that man ST4 I have also added a 1957 Molnijna to a Pam 111h, some of these old movements are just beautiful to look at and totally reliable... for example the Hamilton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbutlerman Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Very cool project and kind of leads into something I need some help with...I am getting ready to remove the AR from a crystal...if I read your post correctly, you can get it off with steel wool and over cleaner without scratching the crystal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cortebert Posted October 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Very cool project and kind of leads into something I need some help with...I am getting ready to remove the AR from a crystal...if I read your post correctly, you can get it off with steel wool and over cleaner without scratching the crystal? yes.... I have removed the AR on a few crystals, and since a friend of mine damaged his using a Dremel I tend to do this work by hand...The first myth is that wire/steel wool will scratch glass, well it doesn't, as glass is much harder than mild steel. Using wire wool to remove AR takes time it doesn't come off easy, be patient....but when you have finished you will be pleased, there's nothing that shouts FAKE or REP more than Blue Tint on a glass or crystal, I could spot it across a room as soon as it catches the light.... or as a friend of mine would say, on a galloping horse with one eye shut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Great minds must think alike... I have been doing the same modifications for quite a while. Here's my version of a 921 into a Fiddy case. I wanted to keep the fiddy hands so I fabricated a new hour wheel and cannon pin. I just finished a circa 1923 Illinois pendant set pocket watch movement (size 12) into a fiddy style case with a vintage MM Ross dial, again using fiddy hands and my own manufactured hour and cannon wheels. Quite a bit of fabrication and thought had to go into getting the stem to work correctly because it was a pendant set, I got it figured out and it works and and runs great. These are great fun, especially the hunt for suitable movements, most can be had for less than $100 but with some work needed to get them running, I find a lot of broken staff's. My 921 is within 20 seconds - per week, not bad... Well done, enjoy the watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cortebert Posted October 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 beautiful, thanks for sharing not seen a 921 in a fiddy before....fabulous looking movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Thanks, the 921 is a great looking and time keeping movement. I'll try and put some pics of the Illinois and Ross dial later this week, like you, I prefer the vintage movements over the newer stuff. Quality never goes out of style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cortebert Posted October 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Thanks, the 921 is a great looking and time keeping movement. I'll try and put some pics of the Illinois and Ross dial later this week, like you, I prefer the vintage movements over the newer stuff. Quality never goes out of style. I'll also try and post a Fiddy with 6152 case with the Cortebert movement, this also has the Ross dial but aged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krpster Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Amazing work gents! Very inspirational for those of us starting to "tinker". Yet another reason to love this place...always something new (or old) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asf Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 i love those bridges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neuuubeh Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) The Zigmeister mentioned Illinois, so I will allow myself to post some rather bad pics of a similar thing featuring an Illinois movement, currently in development by my humble self . Its a size 12, 19 jewel adjusted to 5 positions movement from the late 20's (last I checked the serial number).. The Zigmeister, am I right to assume the whole train is made of "hard gold", or is it just the center wheel? The wheels in this movement do have different colors, but then I have an Illinois Autocrat and I swear those look to be of the same material, same even as the balance wheel. Do you know better? I too am in love with old movements, especially american from the 20's. Lets just say I have enough for like 4-5 such projects, yet I have my eyes on SOOOO MANY. Currently trying to diversify with some size 10 tho.. There are some amazing and unique looking ones to say the least I'm still not done with the dial so no pictures from that side... apparently the post has decided theres no hurry when it comes to packages addressed to me.. I'm also toying with the idea of creating a custom set of hands, as the fiddy ones are actually starting to appear too thin to me. Will have to experiment with a brass (or something..) plate I have and see if it oxidizes too much.. If so, I'll get an electro-plating set and plate then with some gold.. PS now I see the pictures arent really focused.. gotta buy me a new camera damn it Edited October 5, 2009 by Neuuubeh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neuuubeh Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 I just finished a circa 1923 Illinois pendant set pocket watch movement (size 12) into a fiddy style case with a vintage MM Ross dial, again using fiddy hands and my own manufactured hour and cannon wheels. Quite a bit of fabrication and thought had to go into getting the stem to work correctly because it was a pendant set, I got it figured out and it works and and runs great. That would be an interesting thing to see! I have been wondering the same myself. Got a couple of these movements and have been toying around with a couple of ideas.. Hmmm, if only I wasnt so limited as to "fabrication means". A lousy dremel and a file doesnt help much there does it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 @ Neuuubeh The train wheels should all be made of hard brass, I believe that the center wheel is coated in copper, but I am not certain of this. Omega did this to many of their movements from the 60's and 70's. It could also be made from Glucyder but I don't think it was around when these movements were fabricated. I also have a large parts bin full of these old movements, all modified to fit into the PAM cases, and all fully serviced and repaired. As your probably well aware, many of these old movements have broken balance staff's, that is the most common problem I have to fix. My approach so far has been to manufacture new cannon and hour wheels to accept the Fiddy type of hands. I'll get some pics taken tomorrow and post the end results. Nice to see your workmanship, well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neuuubeh Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) Hmm, I asked about that because I have come across multiple references on Illinois (and other high end American movements) having their wheels, mostly the center one, made of "hard gold" or "hard red gold", depending on the source. Now, for a noob like me with rather limited sources, other than the inet, it does get interesting.. (The same curiousity brought me to the top-end movements with "Rubies, Sapphires and a Diamond" jewels as well, but those are really out of my league) For example, I have several Elgin movements. Most with plain, brass-looking center wheels. I just received another one (broken staff, but I bought it for parts anyhow ) and for my surprise, it turned out to be higher decorated AND also comes with the same wheel (nicely beveled spokes..) that I believe is the rumored gold alloy.. Thanks for the compliments mate, I do have to admit its not as clean as your work, but still makes me quite happy . Really hope I'll get around to finishing this (also got 2-3 more planned, my gf is going cuckoo ). Its so cool hunting for the movements as well (living in EU doesnt make buying American watches easier), and there are so many that are affordable even on rather slim "allowances".. I'd love to see some more of your work, if you have time please dont hesitate to post Soz for taking this slightly off-topic.. Take care, Nick PS. Interesting link, search for "gold" - http://www.timezone.com/library/tmachine/tmachine631686151926286524 . Seems the rumors are read were true . I think most of the train (the 3 wheels with the same finish) in that picture is made of the said gold alloy Edited October 5, 2009 by Neuuubeh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cortebert Posted October 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) beautiful work Nick...I love every part of this build its an inspiration.... Edited October 5, 2009 by Cortebert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Well I learned something new today. Thanks for the link, interesting stuff, especially with gold at $1K an oz...I can see some buying these up for the gold content alone. It reminds me of all the un-cased pocket watch movements for sale now on ebay, cases were robbed and sold for the gold content...what a shame... I have seen wheels like this and this colour many times but never thought much of them. I wonder how low the actual gold content is in them and what carat they are, the center wheel is the most stressed wheel in the watch so it has to be a very hard alloy, I would guess in the single digits, probably alloyed with copper and tin and hardened. I'll get some pics tomorrow and put it in a new post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neuuubeh Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) Thanks guys, you are too kind.. Guess I will have to torture you further . Here is a picture of the dial-side at this moment. I didnt figure/want to figure a way to extend the pinions, and as a result the sandwich dials are a bit too thick. My solution for this watch is to only use the plate with the numbers and apply some gold leaf on the other side (staying with the gold theme hehe, 24k and so on ). I was also hoping to figure out a simple way to use a seconds hand, but this has proven impossible without somehow getting the hours hand higher relative to the dial.. So I think I'll just make a 2-hands watch - I do have like 2 more watches planned for the future, those will have seconds as well. For this one, I have a dial without the subseconds incoming which will get the gold leaf as well. The dial thats currently in there is rather abused anyhow The picture doesnt show it (not hard to believe is it), but the gold leaf picks up LOTS of light, even in rather low light it does shine. The hands themselves I tried to chamfer a bit to see what it would look like - I am already on my way of making new ones, a bit wider and chamfered. These look rather small against the black&gold dial. Edited October 6, 2009 by Neuuubeh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cortebert Posted October 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 I think you can solve this hand problem... I did a similar build using a 44mm Titanium Pam with a nickel plated dial and had a similar problem to you..The second hand pin may sit below the sandwich dial but many second hands have a long-ish shaft or tube that raises the hand off the face. You could raise the hand by using the hypodermic needle method (a Francisco tutorial) or buy a bag of mixed hands (brand new) off Ebay for around $15 - $20 for say 300/400... (really cheap) and fabricate a new set using the Pam hand and the tube...hard to explain but I have a tutorial called Molnija 3601 /3602 comparison and maybe this explains it better. Gold on black works so well and I think gold leaf is the way to go (dont be tempted to use gold paint)...you have created something really special in my opinion, one of the nicest modified pams I have seen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neuuubeh Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) I think you can solve this hand problem... I did a similar build using a 44mm Titanium Pam with a nickel plated dial and had a similar problem to you..The second hand pin may sit below the sandwich dial but many second hands have a long-ish shaft or tube that raises the hand off the face. You could raise the hand by using the hypodermic needle method (a Francisco tutorial) or buy a bag of mixed hands (brand new) off Ebay for around $15 - $20 for say 300/400... (really cheap) and fabricate a new set using the Pam hand and the tube...hard to explain but I have a tutorial called Molnija 3601 /3602 comparison and maybe this explains it better. Gold on black works so well and I think gold leaf is the way to go (dont be tempted to use gold paint)...you have created something really special in my opinion, one of the nicest modified pams I have seen... Thanks mate! The problem isnt the seconds hand - its the hours. Until I somehow modify it so that its higher relative the dial, it collides with the seconds hand.. I will try to extend the tube of the hours hand and see it fits, but as I said, the stuff I ordered still hasnt reached me. Oh well . Hopefully when I swap the new dial it will look better, this one is quite beat up from all my experiments . I already have a use of this planned, I will strip the paint and brush it - I'm sure you have seen photos of that genuine brass dial in Volkers book (I saw a scan of VDB). That will be a future project tho PS BTW I lost the seconds hand I had gotta wait anyhow PS2. Really going to try and make my own hands tho! The brass-looking material I have doesnt seem to oxidize this far.. Am ordering some "finer" tools, as even my dremel is about to die.. Edited October 7, 2009 by Neuuubeh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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