PeteM Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 So there has been much talk about all the new OTB reps and we have been really spoilt with the influx of some great OTB reps and although there are still many flaws with these overall they are very good especially when compared with what we had on offer last year.... It is forums such as RWG and importantly individual members behind the scenes who have helped to push the factories in the right direction and advise them on what we as collectors are seeking... I am sure many of you dont realise just what does go on behind these scenes to the benefit of us all and in turn the financial benefits to the dealers and the factories.. But it is important we dont become complacent about what we have now and continue to press on with expecting more from our dealers and or from those that are part of the modding scene... I am talking about guys that produce aftermarket parts for our benefit... We have been lucky enough to see the release of the sausage dials recently which I am sure most will agree is the epitome of the Panerai... We all crave the best we can with our PAMs and the dial is no exception... recently we have seen great emphasis on the case shapes and CGs plus the crystals and with a certain amount of success... however IMHO the dials still need to be improved as these are probably the one area of these OTB reps that still haven’t been as good OTB as the other parts that have been redesigned and produced to meet our higher expectations. I wanted in this thread to draw your attention to what we should be looking for from our dials generally and that if we can’t get these from the factories then we can expect them to appear over time from other sources.. Here are some gen 360 dials showing the indices and the bath tub effect we need to see in the reps, it is interesting that even in these pics you cannot see that the 360 typeface is NOT white but rather a vintage lume colour or maybe better described as a coffee colour... The problem stems initially from the materials and processes used by the factories... basically OEM dials are brass which are milled or pressed, depending on the quantity to be produced as OP only use the a coinage tool for the larger runs such as 200 upwards wheras on the smaller numbers they use the milling process. The way to tell these is that on the stamped dials the edges of the indices are rounded whereas the milled dials are sharper edged. So once this is done the brass surface is polished and then glass bead blasted after this it receives a galvanic black surface after that it receives a thin layer of Zapon varnish then it is pad pressed with the typeface and then it is lumed with a mix of RCTritec etc and varnish ... this is done after as the Berlac paint used for the typeface will not stick/adhere to the galvanic finish. As some of you may know this is how Vendome removed the old PreV typeface from the PreV dials and redid them with the Vendome type face for the PreA dials. Now there are some variations in terms of the process of these applications which can give slightly different looks to the dials but the overall material and finish is something that all rep dials lack. The rep dials are generally made of aluminium which is stamped then painted, pad pressed and lumed ... So the depth of the indices can never be achieved nor can the edges of the indices and in addition the way the lume sits in the indices. Then the finish of the dial cannot be achieved because firstly the aluminium cannot be polished or glass bead blasted as per the gen and in turn receive the galvanic coat, all these OEM processes are what gives the dials the unique finish that they have and so far has never been replicated... now I know this process is expensive but I am sure with the initiative of the factories there is a viable way of achieving the OEM look or certainly improving it in the same way they have with other parts. Below are some more pics to highlight the points I am trying to make. This is an overview of the dials and I hope I aint bored you too much and you managed to read this through I have tried to do this as concisely as possible without going into the true detail of these PAM dials and boring the pants off everyone. Another current topic is the luming issues of the 360 and other suasage dials but especially the 360 so do have a look out for Part 2 of this thread where I will raise the issues regarding rep lume on the sausage dials and highlight the inherent flaws in the processes and final product I hope This info and pics has been produced from discussions with other members with the aim to produce an OEM spec dial of which I am sure many have heard of ... on the bush telegraph 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 This thread is a lot of things Pete..but boring It is not. I dont think we will ever see the perfect Pam..or any other rep far as that go's. That being said....the factories are going In the right direction..they are Indeed getting better and better by the year. I guess for some the Idea of producing the perfect rep is not something they are looking foward to...If the rep is without flaws.. then there are no mods to be done....now what fun is that? Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to educate us on the different aspects of the Pam dials. Well done mate. Mike.....PS..still waiting for my key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteM Posted December 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 I am sorry if I came across as saying I want the factories to produce the perfect PAM... its far from what I meant.. I was trying to say that given the efforts made recently with the case shape the CG and the crystal now its time to make that same effort with the dial in rying to reproduce the look of the gen.. The key is being kept warm somewhere very special... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 No... the "perfect rep" was just me thinking out loud..I did not mean that is what I gathered from your post. If that makes any sense. Thanks for keeping the key safe mate...much appreciated. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hackR Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Pete...this is awesome, my friend...i love reading your stuff...the attention to detail is cool - as i always learn from your intense knowledge of the brand...i love that...thanks - for being a HUGE asset to the community... question/comment -- i've always been intrigued by the finish on PAM dials...matte, semi-gloss, textured, etc...had a LH dial and the "texture" of the dial was very much like the gen 360...textured or speckled - its a much different look than some of the other dials that simply are flat or matte in color and texture...if you ever get bored, a dial expose would be terrific...i don't have access to gens where i live, so its hard to know what they look like in various lighting... for example, in this pix the dial seems to be more flat and consistant texture... and then in this picture, the dial of the 360 looks to be "textured" with various colors specks... awesome post...you rock!... a very Merry Christmas to you and the family! R- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flim Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Great post, Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Great post. It really helps us understand all the steps and materials to make a Panerai dial. IMHO no one ever has a prayer of ever successfully reproducing a gen dial. Heck it is almost impossible to properly refinish an existing gen dial. The finish is just never perfect. But IMHO it does at least start with proper dial thickness and rep dials are usually half as thick and of course proper materials - brass. Without knowing all the processes involved I concluded years ago that there is no point in sinking money into a PAM franken without a gen dial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Amazing post Pete and well researched > 1:1 dials will never come from any rep factory - but some of the forum membr initiatives have and will continue to get us closer. Just think back and look how far we have taken this compared to what was achievable in lets say 2003 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w0lf Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Great stuff, Pete, as always. Thank you for taking the time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianton Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Great thread, plenty of info here! Thanks mate!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteM Posted December 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Thanks guys for all the kind comments I really appreciate.... I truly hope it helps someone and maybe takes things a little further forward in terms of our requirements from our hobby for example, in this pix the dial seems to be more flat and consistant texture... and then in this picture, the dial of the 360 looks to be "textured" with various colors specks... Thanks Rob... Merry Crimbo to you too mate Generally speaking what you see on all dials is the same with small variations.... if you recall above the dial making process starts with a brass disc which is milled or stamped... then it is polished and glass bead blasted notice the dials in different stages above.... then it recieves a galvanic finish which is varnished with a Zapon Lacquer which is mixed with a hardener and thinner.... what gives the variations to different dials across the models is a combination of the galvanic finish and the mix used in the varnish and its thickness or number of layers. So when you see these dials at different angles and in differing lights you are not seeing a true texture or a 3D texture its a perception created by the light refracting on the dial both on the varnish and in turn the galvanic coat ( remember underneath it has a glass bead finish on a polished surface) so as the light refracts it pics out this percieved texture or rather it accentuates the percieved texture... add to that the reflective particles sitting in the cellulose varnish it creates a decieving look to the dial and is one of the reasons the PAM dials especially the PreVs are loved so much... Here are some sets of pics of the gen dials in different lights and angles (2 Models here)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteM Posted December 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Here is a quote from a good friend and respected member who describes it so much better than I do and I hope he wont mind me using his quote "Panerai dials have this light textured look in addition to their richness because they somehow make the paint/varnish/galvanized particles that comprize the coating look like they're swimming at different depths. The angles of light reflection of minuscule particles of whatever they use in the coating are different and thus create a more three dimensional aspect, one that's missing from most rep dials aside from some really old ones. It's almost like looking at a shaken half full bottle of goldschlager " Puts my use of English to shame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w0lf Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 I knew all these years of being a lush will finally pay off some time down the road Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteM Posted December 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 How do you always know when I am talking about you.... even when I dont mention your name...? Its those pameesenses I guess... ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w0lf Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Well, I wasn't sure until you said goldschlager... the other stuff though, Pete, i'm not sure... it's like you were talking about some other guy i don't know, but then I asked myself... what's he going on about, that c_nt has friends besides me? That's impossible. So yes, mate, it's precisely then I knew you were talking about me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteM Posted December 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Well that should have dawned on you straight away !! My user name on face book is Billy no mates.... I dont get friend requests only F**k off requests... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 You two are like an old married couple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w0lf Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 We're not old! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteM Posted December 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 Yes I resent that!!.... I am in the prime of life and still look good in a mini skirt !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w0lf Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 Yes, yes you do, Pete. Anyway, I'm surprised more people haven't commented yet, I know this stuff and I read the whole thing thrice and loved it, this exactly the kind of content that makes rwg a better place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteM Posted December 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 Ooooo You smooth talker you.....!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 Looking forward to the pic in the miniskirt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rek001 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 Well I had no idea that the fabrication of gen Pam dials was so involved, thanks so much for the education Pete. Quite the amazing process, I just can't see any of the rep factories taking the time to reproduce these dials accurately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanya Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 I hope they don't get too perfect otherwise our Frankens will be jeolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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