Devedander Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 So I was looking for a cheap box to hold my watches (something better than a pile in the corner of my sock drawer) and this whole "winders" thing has me wondering, do you guys get winders just so you won't have to set your watches, or is there value in keeping watches wound? I was thinking that maybe when they wind down and things get slower or pressure becomes lower maybe it puts more stress on gears (as I understand, breaking momentum is rough on most mechanical devices) so maybe keeping them running will help them avoid the "cold start" wear and tear. On the other side it seems that maybe letting them run down and sit in a "dead" state might be good for them as it will cause less damage between friction creating parts (I am aware of the whole "oil degrades over time with or without use" thing). So what's the verdict? Is there any significant difference between keeping watches wound vs letting them run down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 So what's the verdict? Is there any significant difference between keeping watches wound vs letting them run down? If I recall, The Zigmeister's input on this was "no" it didn't matter... I think it was more a question of whether or not the lubrication would break down faster if the watch was kept running constantly in a winder, and he said it would not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted October 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Yeah the oil was covered, but I was wonering about the stress on the parts in general... for instance take any complex motor and crank it slowly... then crank it fast, then go back to slow... you will notice that friction and breaking momentum makes it harder at lower speeds... with that in mind it seems like maybe keeping parts running and moving would avoid the stress of initial starts as well as keeping it from running slowly (which from my analogy seems to be when things are hardest... if you have to put in more work, that means there is more resistance and I wonder how much that resistance effects parts). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFlash Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 (edited) This issue has been debated extensively in replica sites and also genuine sites. Bottom line - doesn't seem to make any difference. Only real reason I prefer winders is so the time, date, day, month, etc is correct. Pick up any watch in the morning and its good to go. Except for tomorrow when I start resetting them because of daylight savings time. Edited November 1, 2006 by JJFlash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 You are keeping it wound for convenience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchlover321 Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 I second that. It's more of a convenience. Just think about your future watch collection, where you rotate daily... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted October 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 I second that. It's more of a convenience. Just think about your future watch collection, where you rotate daily... And the thousands I have to spend on winders to keep them all on time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 You are keeping it wound for convenience. Perhaps????? All mechanical watches will need service at regular intervals. Aside from damage from shock, the wear and tear a watch sustains in daily running doesn't damage it in such a way that service cannot restore it to like new running condition. But running does affect this service interval to a certain extent. I read in WT in their discussion with Tag about the development of the 1/100th second chrono that service intervals are a function of beats and there is a simple multiplication/division formula to determine a service interval based on beat rate. Furthermore, the movements in our replicas have certain QC issues that might suggest continual running might have an effect on specific breakdowns. I know Rob has reviewed movements that have pallet stone mounting/adhesive issues, non jeweled bearing sites etc..... In all, there is nothing about running your watch continually that will damage it beyond what a thorough servicing can restore, but I do think our watches might suffer from wear issues related to running faster than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Yeah the oil was covered, but I was wonering about the stress on the parts in general... for instance take any complex motor and crank it slowly... then crank it fast, then go back to slow... you will notice that friction and breaking momentum makes it harder at lower speeds... with that in mind it seems like maybe keeping parts running and moving would avoid the stress of initial starts as well as keeping it from running slowly (which from my analogy seems to be when things are hardest... if you have to put in more work, that means there is more resistance and I wonder how much that resistance effects parts). The key is not so much starting and stopping, as it is is the movement clean and oiled. If correctly oiled, and maintained at regular intervals, I dont' think starting and stopping it will make any difference... There is little to no inertia in a watch (compared to say a car motor), and unlike a car motor where the oil seeps and pulls away from the parts the longer it sits, the oil in a watch does not move, the quantities are so small, and if serviced correctly, the oil is held in place between the pivot and the jewel with capillary action...it does not move or seep out of the jewel - even if the watch is not used for a long time... Servicing at regular intervals is the key, if you want it to last... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted October 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 (edited) And to TJ my own post... This brings up another point I have trouble wrapping my mind around, which is spending $200 to service a $200 rep... On one side you can just wear it for the 2-5 years it should last, then buy another rep - total out $200. Or you can service it at a 100% markup every few years, but then have a nice looking timepiece that lasts for only $400 + 200 every 5 years... Somehow I can't bring myself to do the latter, even though I know the logic may be off (kind of like "Hey I will sell you this Dodge RAM that MSRPS at 40k for only $1000" - "Nah, at $1000 a new set of tires costs as much as the truck! I can't go spending 100% of the trucks value every year"). Edited October 30, 2006 by Devedander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 And to TJ my own post... This brings up another point I have trouble wrapping my mind around, which is spending $200 to service a $200 rep... On one side you can just wear it for the 2-5 years it should last, then buy another rep - total out $200. Or you can service it at a 100% markup every few years, but then have a nice looking timepiece that lasts for only $400 + 200 every 5 years... Somehow I can't bring myself to do the latter, even though I know the logic may be off (kind of like "Hey I will sell you this Dodge RAM that MSRPS at 40k for only $1000" - "Nah, at $1000 a new set of tires costs as much as the truck! I can't go spending 100% of the trucks value every year"). The 5 year interval is an industry standard. In reality, very few mechanical watches require it to keep running. I know of many mechanical owners who have 20 year old watches that have never been serviced. From what Rob has told us, there is little in these Chinese copies of tried and true movements to suggest anything flawed inherent in their design. There is no reason that with a one time adequete cleaning and oiling, they can't be just as reliable. Besides, if you think the replica watch business is still going to be around in this format with this ease of availbility in 10 years, you're deluding yourself. Any plan for open ended replaceability of these watches will fail eventually on the power of import scaning and x-ray technology and...guns and bullets. The little dark secret around here is that the replica business will end very quickly one day when the Chinese government decides it's in their best interest to stop it. As someone once said here, when it comes time to shut it down, it will be gone overnight because when it comes to getting things done, no one does it like the Chinese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Category 5 Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 I have to think that (especially on a rep) avoiding pulling the crown and dialing in the time every day is something that it is beneficial to avoid. The threads on out crowns and tubes aren't usually precision cut, and IMO this is a weak area for reps. Also, I know that The Zigmeister stated the oils don't seep or deteriorate any faster, but I have to think that keeping a watch running would at least have some effect on maintaining the uniformity of the lubrication. At any rate, I keep my watches in a winder and greatly appreciate the fact that I can quickly pick any one, put it on, and go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Keeping a watch running is the best if nothing else it will tell you what time it is. Seriously! Seeing these things in motion is what attracted some of us to watches in the first place. Watches that are not allowed or can not run are sad things indeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 And to TJ my own post... This brings up another point I have trouble wrapping my mind around, which is spending $200 to service a $200 rep... The problem with that comparison is that your not taking into consideration the cost of the servicing of a movement. It does not matter how much you paid for the watch, it's heritage (rep or genuine) the cost and time and effort and tooling to service a "Fake" watch, is the same as servicing a "Real" watch. Actually most times it's 50% more effort to service a rep, as the parts quality and tolearnces is not there. It's the same as saying I bought a replica Ferrari for $1000, and then I find out the damm garage wants $1000 to change the oil and adjust the timing, I'll be dammed if I am going to pay $1000 to service my $1000 Ferrari... Comparing the cost of the replica to the cost of having the watch serviced is not a valid comparison, as just because you got the watch for $200, doesnt' mean you should expect to only spend $25 for getting it serviced...your better off throwing them out that having them maintained. In the end it's a choice, keep in mind that ETA has stated that the 7753 is NOT a current movement anymore, meaning no parts...and in 2009 ETA stops selling movements to anyone outside of the Swatch group...sure there will always be Asian powered watches, but try and get replacement parts - impossible... I am going to take some pics of my shop and the tooling I have and need to service a watch, and then you can see the level of $$$ needed to have a shop set up...then add to that the fact that there are fewer and fewer watchmakers around, the skills needed to do the work, etc... Just for fun, google "Watch repair prices..." and you will be shocked at what you will pay for mechanical watch servicing...It's the actual servicing your paying for, not how much you paid for the watch...if you paid $5000 for the watch, $200 would seem like a bargain... For me, as biased as I am towards servicing, I'll gladly keep mine clean and oiled, and expect them to last a lifetime, I don't have a Swiffer Sweeper, but use a old mop that I have to wring out, I prefer to not throw things out if I have to, but keep what I have...I think we are at the pinacle of replica's in terms of availablility and quality...it can't last forever...but I hope it will be the same in 5 years. 7753's are gone, the 2893-2 GMT's are gone, etc...there are only so many movements out there, once they are gone, that's the end of them... I'll gladly keep mine clean and oiled, as I know how hard it's going to be to get replacement ones in a few years time... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted October 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 I fully understand the work put into servicing a watch... that's why even to save $250 I wouldn't dare try it myself. I work in the computer industry, another one where people don't see the reason to pay so much. I am not trying to say it's not the right way to go, it's just hard for me to wrap my mind around it... logically it makes sense, but the human side of me says "gah". Reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon where a story is told: A lady takes her car to the mechanic becuase it's making a funny noise. The mechanic looks it over for a while, then gets a little hammer and taps the engine right on top. It works perfectly then. He says $100 for fixing the car. The lady is angry and says "Why should I pay you $100 to tap my car with a hammer?" He says "It's $10 for the tap and $90 to know where to tap". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 I fully understand the work put into servicing a watch... that's why even to save $250 I wouldn't dare try it myself. I work in the computer industry, another one where people don't see the reason to pay so much. I am not trying to say it's not the right way to go, it's just hard for me to wrap my mind around it... logically it makes sense, but the human side of me says "gah". Reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon where a story is told: A lady takes her car to the mechanic becuase it's making a funny noise. The mechanic looks it over for a while, then gets a little hammer and taps the engine right on top. It works perfectly then. He says $100 for fixing the car. The lady is angry and says "Why should I pay you $100 to tap my car with a hammer?" He says "It's $10 for the tap and $90 to know where to tap". I totally agree, there is no right or wrong answer, to each his own if they want to service a watch or not... I know many people that prefer to wear them as they are delivered, if and when the movement dies, they spend the servicing money on a newer version, and hopefully a better one as well... Our problem is that we are paying so little for the quality of the watches we have...even a ETA 7753 powered replica, at $600 or whatever is a steal, as my wholesale price for that movement is $600 alone...makes you wonder... If and when any of yours stops working, keep me in mind for the trash heap, I can use the spares... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hk45ca Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 if metal parts are moveing they are wearing. i have 4 watches 3 eta and 1 cn movement that have developed problems from winding every day for the last 10 months. 3 eta rolex the clutches don't want to release, so the rotor tries to spin while you are winding them. one of them has stripped the crown and the winding gears. the cn has stripped the winding gears. the bottom line is if you are not useing it you are not wearing it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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