Is Panerai Still Hot?

[eddhead]

>>>There is a certain mystique and allure when it comes to Panerai watches unlike any other brand on the market and it is growing. Look at all the people posting in Paneristi and other sites not to mention the several rep sites. Panerai is a mid 20th century creation and this generation, as well as future generations are going to continue to embrace the clean asthetics and simple beauty of these superb Italian watches. No, they are going to increase in popularity and in time will be a household name like Rolex. It may take time, but the bottom line is that great quality lasts and there is always a customer for that kind of product.

<<<<

I don't think people really understand the true "history" of Panerai and are instead falling for hype.

First of all there is nothing remotely "Italian" about Panerai. They are not made in Italy or owned by an Italian company. Secondly the real history of Panerai is about 10 years old, they are NOT mid century time peices.

Panerai was a supplier to the military and a small watch shop. They made things like sights for guns and other similar functional tools.

During WWII the Italian Navy (which in itself was an absolute joke) commisioned them to make a couple of specific watches for them. Panerai used Rolex movements and designed cases out of pure function. Aesthetics were NOT a concern, there was no great design statement. this would be the equivilent of some tool company making a surverying level or something... it was a TOOL.

So over the course of the war they made a handful of these watches, a literal handful, under 30 TOTAL. That was that... the end for decades. Sure, they made the occasional prototype this or that but in reality Panerai was NOT a watch company and did not produce watches in any numbers or on any regular basis for either the military or the public.

In the eraly 90's they started to make a couple of specifically commisioned watches for Sylverster Stalone and then in 1997 were purchased by Richmont Group who owns Cartier and many luxury brands. THIS is where the REAL history of Panerai watches begins.

The Richmont Group did a VERY good job at marketing these watches. In a direct reaction to the return of automatic watches and the trend towards large watches they started creating simple watches based on the look of those original few WWI pieces. More importantly they marketed them as limited editions and played up the slight connection they had with the past. Unlike many other companies that had real history panerai has a fictitious history designed to give them a marketing hook. "These are the frogmen watches from WWII" the ads claimed, giving them instant (though false) credibility. The watches shared NOTHING in common with those few tool watches from WWII other than being designe dto look a bit like them.

Panerai went on to be REALLY good at creating demand for the watches by releasing them in limited numbers... a great ploy that created a lot of collectors. I love them, I buy into the whole deal but I alos know it is total B.S. By that I mean that there is no history here, there is nothing of actual historical significance or meaning. Panerai is EXACTLY like bell bottoms or any other fad. Some last a long time, some burn out very quickly. it is impossible to say if Panwerai as a company will be around in 50 years or not. But it is safe to say that for Panerai to survive as more than a niche company they will have to change as people's tatses and trends change. Thes eare not "classic" timeless designs nor are the Rolex (the only sports watch company that manages to survive and thrive without significant change).

Sales ofr Panerai (gens) are actually down. This is fact. You can now actaually often see limited editions and some of the more "rare" peiced available at dealers. They are not common by any means but the day of having to wait a year for a watch are over. Panerai has probably produced too many watches at this point, they are making many more than they used to and this works against the mystique they did such a good job creating.

So are they hot? Sure they are, they are popular fashion pieces that trednsetters have embraced, but like all such things be they cars or fashion or music or whatever those same trendsetters will move on and it is THEN that we see how good Panerai really is as staying relevant.

Great post, I really learned something. Thanks.

[Richard Tracy]

I think that style will dictate what people will wear,... not own.

Some people own and buy watches that they never wear, but still will enjoy them.

Not to say that style won't affect the popularity of certain watches, like panerai, when

sizes do return... as they always do, to 40mm standard for men....

As for those who say you can't go back, once you go large.... I say that's true only

to an extent... For instance, thanks to Panerai, I can no longer wear anything smaller

than 40mm, yet still consider anything over 42mm on the freakish side.

However if styles went back to 36mm... I think I would pass on those as they now

have become feminine in my eyes...

Nope 40mm is still and will remain the Planet that all other styles will revolve around,

and that I am willing to bet...

[tvt]

A lot of this discussion depends on your age. Very young people may not have seen too many fads come and go and so they lack percpective required to understand that giant watches WILL go away with time... including Panerai (or they will change to something else).

I vividily recall wearing GOD AWEFUL clothes int he 80's and thinking "man, I am lucky to have such cool clothes that will be always be cool". I'm talking about hidous pants with like 12 pleats and SUPER baggy but then tappered at the ankle, bolo ties and ridiculous things liek tuxedo shirts. I could not understand how they woudl EVER go out of style or why I woudl EVER not want to wear them. Of course I look back at photos now and feel damn foolish.

Similarly putting on a nice thin Movado quartz watch would make me feel silly... but 20 years ago that was the hieght of style and coolness. Today we all love the giant watches because they are cool... in some time people will get sick of them and they will go away. The problem with Panerai is that they are so tied to that ONE style. Many brands that have added big watches will simply take them away, Panerai will have to change thier enitre company and that could prove difficult.

The mear fact that we are having this discussion is further proof that the fad is already wanning (and just look at the fall in gen sales for more of that proof).

[babola]

[Watchmeister]

I continue to believe that with the most successful premium watch group in the world behind Panerai Richemont will do whatever it has to do to keep the brand popular. If people trend toward smaller watches I will bet that PAM's will get proportionately smaller. Since the takeover Richemont has shrunk them to as small as 40mm and grown them to as much as the historical 47mm. Don't look for PAM's to disappear any time soon.

[Watchmeister]

The fact that we see less written here is, IMHO, as much a result of the fact that we are finally seeing high quality reps of different brands. For all of you PAM fanatics who have bought the various new IWC and AP reps, how many are actually wearing them? Mine largely sit gracefully in my watch box waiting for the day when I no longer want to wear 44mm watches. Except for my MBW's and DW's of course.

[Ptolomeo]

Pams are hotter than ever

Agree

PAMs, with the new movements they're working on -P2002 is only the first one-, are going to last many years as one of the most quality brand.

[thewightstuff]

tvt,

i know you were probably paraphrasing however i think you will find that they made more than 30 watches during the war.

there was an issue of 700 issued to german divers who were trained by the italians for starters and are often seen now as the kampfschwimmer models. ontop of that there were the models issued to the italian divers and the navy received panerai watches for some time over many years. the egyptian navy also had a special model of panerai issued.

in all actuality its this military "tool" spec and lineage that makes them so desirable to watch afficionados.

look at the interest and prices around rolex 5517 military issues and other pocket watches. its something thats not restricted to simply watches but theres a bit of romantic history around such timepieces and companies that can be quite alluring.

sure panerai are trading on this, just like breguet do with their older french heritage. it certainly makes for more interesting reading than a modern desire to just make an efficient and quality watch.

thats dull

Edited November 28, 2006 by thewightstuff

[tvt]

Well I was not exagerating but you do have me on a technicality. What I should of said is that panerai made less than 30 watches in a style we typically associate with Panerai for the Italian Navy. Yes, they had some special issues like the Eyptian Army model you speak of but these again were not for the Italian Navy nor are they "typical' of Panerai.

At any rate Panerai was a store, not a manufacturer of time peices. They basicly made some watch cases for some specific uses. My point being that the history we see in Panerai ads is largely fictional.

Now I agree with you 100% that hyping this "history" is a LOT more interesting than simply being a modern watch company out to make money, but it is important (to me at least) to keep things in perspective. Panerai is a modern and very new watch company. Rolex for exampel has DIRECT lineage to military tool watches they made decades ago, it is the same company making in essence the same watches (only charging MANY times more). Panerai is a 10 year old company with an old name put on it. this only matters in as much as when having a conversation about the longevity of a style of watch "history" cannot be pointed to in panerai's case as a reason it will survive, it has no more history than Jacob and Co. watches.. and does anyone think THOSE will be around in 10 or 20 years?

I LOVE Panerai, I think we see less talk about them here simply because good fakes for it have been out a while and the market is saturated. We are seeing great fakes of other brands and that steals the thunder. But in the scheme of things, talking about gens here, I doubt Panerai will be much of a factor in 10 years time, and if it is the watches will be very different than we see now.

[tvt]

I thought people might enjoy this article which covers the history of Panerai ( I mean the REAL history). note, this is a bit of a PR article designed to play up and hype the brand so take it with a grain of salt... but notice the numbers;

"In 1850, Giovanni Panerai opened G. PANERAI & C. in Florence, at that time the capital of Italy. He was succeeded by his son, Leon Francesco, and then by his grandson Guido.

In 1914, Guido Panerai went into partnership with Carlo Ronconi, a Naval officer, and this was the start of close collaboration between PAZNERAI and the Italian navy.

In 1920, Guido Panerai and his son Giuseppi (great-grandson of Giovanni Panerai) came up with the chronograph MARE NOSTRUM.

In 1936, the company delivered a prototype of the RADOMIR WATCH to the Italian Navy, made using a luminescent radium-based material, which was later replaced by tritium, and more recently by Luminova. This was part of an ultra-confidential military project, held to the strictest secrecy.

The lever-system winding crown, known as the “Déclic” did not appear until 1942. This system made it possible to go to a depth of 200 meters, which was an outright record for the time.

During the 1950s, PANERAI OFFICINE supplied 50 special models to the Egyptian army.

The firm prospered from one generation to another for a century and a half, always in the hands of a member of the Panerai family.

In 1993, two limited editions of the LUMINOR and the MARE NOSTRUM were for the first time sold on the civilian market, and PANERAI OFFICINE entered into the period known as “PRE-VENDÔME.”

In 1995, at the request of the American actor Sylvester Stallone, a lover of the brand, PANERAI OFFICINE brought out three series of MARE NOSTRUM and LUMINOR SUBMERSIBLE, marked “SLYTECH” AND SIGNED ON THE CASE-BACK.

These watches were in part sold to the public and also given to the actor, who presented several as gifts to his Hollywood friends, including Arnold Schwartzenegger, who, though known for his attachment to the AUDEMARS PIGUET OFFSHORE, is also a lover of PANERAI.

In 1996, the series SLYTECH DAYLIGHT came out to coincide with the film of the same name.

Between 1993 and 1997, PANERAI produced 1828 watches. (See PANERAI OFFICINE production /Pre-Vendôme Period.)

PANERAI was bought up by the VENDÔME LUXURY GROUP in 1997.

Backed by its exclusive image, Vendôme launched into production of limited editions that were snapped up by collectors.

The LUMINOR Base and LUMINOR Marina models were introduced at the Geneva International Salon of Master Watch making in 1998, to great public acclaim.

In 1999, the group went in search of new customers, especially those who though they dreamt of owning a PANERAI, were not keen on its outsize 44mm. diameter, and the result was the PANERAI OFFICINE LUMINOR 40mm.

Once again, whatever purists had to say, the model was a huge success, and sales of LUMINOR 40 mm. in all models now account for around 50% of PANERAI OFFICINE sales in this range of products.

In 2002, the firm inaugurated the PANERAI MANUFACTURE, at Neuchâtel, in Switzerland.

From 1993 to 2002, PANERAI OFFICINE has produced almost 93,000 watches, with only 1,828 dating from the 5-year “Pre-Vendôme” Period, a 50-fold increase in production since the family firm was bought up. "

(artilce end)

OK, They made a couple watches for the Italian Navy (I think the actual number is liek 12 or so) and then 50 watches for the Egyption army nearly 2 decades later. They were mainly a case company and an instrument company making compasses and gauges for the military.

That is pretty much it, a handful of watches until 1993 when they produced some reproduction watches, Stalone saw them and enjoyed than so with his backing (sort of like Swartzenager and the Hummer) they made less then 2,000 watches in about 5 years... Richemont bought them, marjeted the hell out of them and they now make tens of thousands of watches a year (and growing WAY too quickly). This is STILL a very tiny number as compared to most watch companies but still a MASSIVE increas over what it was making.

So you see that in essence Panerai is a 10 year old company loosely based on a couple of watches from the second world war. That does not mean it is BAD in any way, it simply is what it is. Panerai makes cool watche but they are FAR from standing the test of time... hell, Movado runs cirlces aroudn them in terms of history!

MOVADO!

[thewightstuff]

edited to say that you posted above while i was typing lol

my understanding was that panerai had continued in some form until the richemont buyout and that things just ramped up after that.

i agree with what you are saying though regarding history and longevity. i have certain reservations about many watch brands relating to lack of inhouse movements and use of ETA bases within, especially when you get an interest in all areas and see the quality of reps with essentially the same internals with drasticaly different prices.

call rolex what you like but the caliber 1570 in my sub is a piece of engineering greatness and for me the best part of the watch. no rep can get this no matter how identical they get. can it be said about this with panerai or many others. my own thought is no and for me this is a big part of any watches indentity

your point ref where panerai will be in 10 years is interesting and infact this very thought actually just made me pause on a purchase of a radiomir this week.

whether things will change when they get their inhouse movement up and running i dont know. it should certainly give them some status to match their pricing however in a historical context, im not sure where this puts them given they have no history of making their own movements using rolex and then angelus when rolex took exception to their movements being used in axis forces watches.

i see many pams for sale, disproportionately large amounts when you look at production figures and this does give me some concern ref long term value.

while one should never buy a watch as in investment, having it loose alot of value is a concern none the less.

the vintage pams commanding upwards of 30k curiously werent even 1/10th that several years ago. thats a big jump and would make me worried if id just bought thats for sure.

as you say, large watches are in vogue just now and no doubt fuelling prices and demand however that being said, large watches have always been around and will do so i feel.

i think we are seeing just now, a crest of a wave against cold digital products. its evident elsewhere and not just watches. people realising accuracy never before imagined in many things isnt worth the lack of character and attachment that comes aswell.

this crest will surely fall off but i dont think it will go back the other way and things will hold somewhat.

i think one of the things effecting panerai also is that its somewhat a victim of its own success. the exclusivity and lack of public awareness was what drew many to the brand when viewed with its military history. its now gaining greater recognition, being seen everywhere from TV to magazine covers etc and this kills the very thing that drew many in.

the feeling i get is that a large majority are getting out and going elsewhere, often it seems back to established brands such as rolex but with vintage models.

i know i sold my gen pam 111 (actually replacing with a rep) and choked on getting a modern radiomir this week. my gen 5512 rolex hasnt been off my wrist for the last few months and im looking at a 5513 or military tudor sub to add alongside. a while back all i could talk about was panerai

Edited November 28, 2006 by thewightstuff

[thewightstuff]

just to pick up on your article above. while a nice review of the company and times, its hardly a thorough indication of quantities produced.

theres no mention of divers watches for which they are technically most famous amongst watch lovers and these were definately produced in fairly big numbers, for panerai atleast lol.

[flavor flav]

still my favorite. fun to do mods, easy to work on and becomes an entirely different watch with the change of a strap although....i narrowed my collection down to 8 of my favorites and nothing else exiting has come out in awhile.....i may be ready for a gen or two

[tvt]

>>>theres no mention of divers watches for which they are technically most famous amongst watch lovers and these were definately produced in fairly big numbers, for panerai atleast lol.<<<

But that is my point, they did NOT make the "famous" dive watches in any quanity at all, even for a shop as small as Panerai. I mean quite literally they made like a dozen or two... THAT'S IT! Panerai was a military supplier or gauges and the like. When the navy needed a few very secialized waterproof watch cases they commisioned panerai to put those together. they did so using Rolex movements and that was that. They engineered some waterproof cases and also the use of certain luminous materials.

None of this is intended to take anything away from Panerai, it is just interesting to understand the truth behind these things. Modern Panerais (up to the point of using in house movements which is just on the verge of happening) are inexpsive to produce (using basic materials liek SS and ETA movements) and are a really stellar example of great marketing. However, as has been pointed out by others, the very thing that makes them cool is now working against that. It is cool that they are unique and different and tool like and all of that... not to mention hard to get and limited. But now they are increasingly NOT hard to get and NOT rare or seldom seen, THAT is probably it's death nell.

Think about when a hot club opens. At first they have no sign, they do not advertise, those in the know simply know about it and others are oblivious. As the club ages more of the general public learns of it and tries to get in. When the club is still hot it can make these people line up ands wait. But as time goes one the real trendsetters leave the club in search of the next thing. At this point the club starts advertising and puts up a big sign, no more lines, the general public walks on in thinking that they are now cool. Of course the REAL trendsetters have long left it. Finally the club is forced to solicit ANYONE they can get, out of towners, tourists, suburbanites... what have you. It is a shell of what it once was and certainly no longer cool by any standard. Finally the club closes.

I think Panerai is currently in phase two of that or maybe even phase 3. It is still cool but those who made it cool are no longer too interested in it. They have sort of overdone the limited edition thing and it is beating a dead horse a bit... They will go on for sure but where they go is anyone's guess. They will either earn respect with in house movements and live a long life (though no longer being "hot" but rather simply another well respected watch maker). Or they will fail and simply fade away as one of the MANY companies that come and go with the times. I don't think we will see any major changes for years to come but as they say the only cinstabt is change... it is the ONLY thing you can be sure of. Though I would alter that saying to read: "The only constant is change, AND ROLEX" . Rolex is the envy of the watch wolrd because they manage to NOT change and still be desired decade after decade... but they are the RARE (sole?) exception.

[AMK000]

Lots of history here. Good to know all these.

Though at the very end, watches are like, food, perfumes, clothes, cars , women, etc... completely subjective and a matter of a personal taste.

Personally I still like PAMs but I also like the variety of other brands too.

Any way.

The question is if we will see during 2007 some really and trully new and exciting models (like 105, 108, 121, 156,162 etc..) or we will continue with the "face lifting" of existing models and small variations of models which we have already seen here ????

Who knows ??? If the second one happens (very likely) .... I will be personally very disapointed.

[Watchmeister]

Just remember that Panerai is owned by the same group that has perpetuated the Rolex name. Between the first in-house movement, the introduction of "historical" 47mm models and the Ferarri line (for which I will prognosticate longer term failure) it appears that Richemont is making the effort to build brand permanence. I suspect Richemont would be very happy for PAM to no longer be the "hot" watch but to ring up the same consistency of sales as Rolex.

[V]

Don't know what you say but I personally liked Panerai that much that I bought a genuine 3500$ BASE (in every way) watch that 90% of the people around me don't have a clue about it.

Now what if I had bought a nice Submariner with that money?

Well some people buy things for themselves.. I know Panerai reps are close to the genuines BUT on the other hand liking the design that much I felt I had to buy the real deal.

At the end the history of Panerai is there.. Myth or not in my eyes it is a beautiful watch to have and wear. And with the straps I have the opportunity to change look every day and not getting bored of it (something that happens very often with my purchases).

[thewightstuff]

i dont want to get into an argument over this, especially since in many ways we are saying the same thing however im not sure where you get your idea that the divers watches they made and are famous for didnt take place. while the article you posted was a nice summary it was for certain not extensive or complete.

many similar articles on other brands make no mention of certain issues however this doesnt mean they ceased to exist.

there was an issue of 700 "kampfschwimmers" for german use and a issue of similar watches for the italians though i dont know exact numbers on this.

while i agree that the quantities produced were indeed small and that their history prior and concurrently was definately that of making guages and tools of all sorts, there was certainly more than a handfull of watches produced and they were in much more general use than is suggested.

i would liken the modern equivelant as being somewhat like CWC. these are military issue now to the British navy and rm though at the moment theres little fuss about or with them. today they are simply a functional tool with no sense of anything else. no ones paying much attention to quantities made or released and theres no history or romanticised involvement. much like panerai in their day.

[aeroguy]

Don't know what you say but I personally liked Panerai that much that I bought a genuine 3500$ BASE (in every way) watch that 90% of the people around me don't have a clue about it.

Now what if I had bought a nice Submariner with that money?

Well some people buy things for themselves.. I know Panerai reps are close to the genuines BUT on the other hand liking the design that much I felt I had to buy the real deal.

At the end the history of Panerai is there.. Myth or not in my eyes it is a beautiful watch to have and wear. And with the straps I have the opportunity to change look every day and not getting bored of it (something that happens very often with my purchases).

V makes some good points... And best of all some things never go out of style

[V]

And best of all some things never go out of style

Personally I don't do my purchases thinking if the item will go out of style in 5-10 or 20 years

I buy NOW and I buy what I like best NOW. Live for today.. who knows what tomorrow will bring

[Quarks]

Good old fashion way of trying to predict the future.... Panerai is a relatively 'new' brand and It is very hard to predict what is going to happen in the future as unexpected things can twist things around.... for the better or worse. The watch industry has proven to be quite unpredictable and the future of Panerai is as good as anyone's guess.

At the moment, it seems that Panerai still remains exciting for some and for others, the hype is already over. Is Panerai just a hype or is it a brand that will stand the test of time? I guess we'll have to wait and see. At the meantime, I'll step aside and enjoy my watches.

[archibald]

I think Richemont has already answered this question...and I guarantee they have the marketing studies and sales figures to answer the question definitevely.

They've developed one manufacture movement and claim to be moving toward all manufacture movement.

Their watches are becoming increasingly complicated, with various sizes and shapes of guards, crowns, etc.

They've started buying ads in publications I've never seen panerai ads in previously.

I think that they'd tell you that, yess, panerai is still very hot, hot enough for them to spend a ton of RD money at, and hot enough to sell with less of a discount than even Rolex. But I think they all recognize that, probably sooner rather than later, people are going to stop paying a 800% surcharge on stock movement, easily copied, stainless steel watches for the cachet of their brand name, especially when all the celebs move on to a different "celeb watch." So they're moving toward harder-to copy, high end movement, more heavily advertised watches.

[aeroguy]

Personally I don't do my purchases thinking if the item will go out of style in 5-10 or 20 years

I buy NOW and I buy what I like best NOW. Live for today.. who knows what tomorrow will bring

I'm just having a little fun

I actually do make my purchases thinking 1. if I really like the item and 2. if the item will stand the test of time. I do that with everything, cars, homes, interior decorating. For example, in the 70's I deftly avoided the "Pacer"... well anything AMC or Pinto-ish... when making a car choice. My homes have always been in neutral tones, hard wood etc. I know I'll be able to wear my Sub or ExpII 20 years from now without hesitation. Holy crap! I'm pretty much a boring dude I'm depressed now

I just get that "Pacer" feeling inside when I see a Pam. Something tells me it's an expensive flash in the pan.

[crystalcranium]

I think any design, be it a Hummer, or a leisure suit, or a heroin chic anorexic model, that evokes strong emotional responses, ie. people either love it or hate it, probably will not stand the test of time. The fact that Pams have passionate followers as well as passionate detractors probably doesn't bode well for the "timelesness" of the design.

[V]

I'm just having a little fun

I actually do make my purchases thinking 1. if I really like the item and 2. if the item will stand the test of time. I do that with everything, cars, homes, interior decorating. For example, in the 70's I deftly avoided the "Pacer"... well anything AMC or Pinto-ish... when making a car choice. My homes have always been in neutral tones, hard wood etc. I know I'll be able to wear my Sub or ExpII 20 years from now without hesitation. Holy crap! I'm pretty much a boring dude I'm depressed now

I just get that "Pacer" feeling inside when I see a Pam. Something tells me it's an expensive flash in the pan.

I understand... every person is a different human being..

Although instead of being on the safe side, some times you should be more spontaneous.. After all the small crasy stuff are that really matter in life

On the other hand I am a so called artist so don't trust blindfolded my opinion..