What Can Be Expected From A Good Rep?

[tvt]

I try so hard NOT to be the guy that I think Riuchard Tracy is suggesting I am that it has become somewhat comical. Everty time I write somehting negative about a fake watch I need to put a little positive comment in there as a mitigator. I always make sure to say something like "But I own many fake watches and I enjoy them." or "Gens have there place and so do fakes, they are both great depoending on what your expectations are." and so on. It is absolutely ridiculous that I feel the need to do this but I do precisely because I do NOT want to be seen as some anti fake guy or accused of being "negative".

But you knwo what? there is nothing negative abotu posting factual, honest replys to specific questions posed by people looking for honest answers. It's not liek I am swinging by a thread and just randomly saying "fakes suck!"

This big nagative spree of mine consists of commenst posted in two threads. the first one asked in the Asian 7750 was a good movement. Seeing that I have had several show up DOA and that the majority of peopel who have problems with fakes tend to be those with Asian 7750s I said no, in my opinion it is NOT a good movement. And of course I was accused of being soem fake hating guy too blind to see the beauty of these "fine timepieces".

The in this thread it was asked what can be expected of fakes versus similarly priced gens. And God help me for offering an opinion that in some cases a gen might be a better choice. Hell, I did not even say that, I just stated some facts... both positive and negative.

So come on, give me a break here. I have been participating on the various boards since the VERY start of them (and I mean day one). I obviously enjoy the things and I have made MANY substatial posts that wallow in the splendor which is fake watches (see my LONG Guangzhou trip report). But I am capable of both enjoying fake watches AND realizing what they are and what limitations they have. When people ask about them I will ALWAYS be honest, which includes the negative side of the coin. I have NEVER tried to "educate" anyone who did not ask a specific question which required a specific answer... and I don't need an education about my positivity or lack thereof either.

[mrnixon]

Thanks By-Tor, TVT, Kanerich Devedander Crystalcranium and Cornerstone

Your comments are very useful as I have no idea what to expect from the buying process (I for example did not expect that one has to service a newly bought watch) or weak points of a replica or the general quality levels.

To R Tracy and Pugwash who did not like the topic. I appologize if my initial question sparked anger. As I am new here, I did not know that quality issues were a bit sensitive and were to be avoided. I just wanted to learn to know more about that expect of a replica. The nice part of the reps, ie their design etc I can judge myself from look at gen or pictures, but the quality is almost impossible to judge from a picture so then at least I appreciate to hear comments from people with more experience.

[TJGladeRaider]

I am new here at the forum, but since I recognized it, I have read alot with large interest. My initial expectation of a good replica such as a 300 usd Panerai copy was that I should get something rather good.

I know, the question might appear as a bit naive, but I would still be interested in hearing your experiences and views.

Thanks in advance

U

I think you will find some very nice reps HERE in your $300 price range, although some of the best are a little more than that, and some that are completely serviced and tested before delivery can be significantly more than that. The garbage advertised on may Internet sites is not something I would want to try to address.

All in all, I suppose I have bought about 200 reps - invariably with Swiss movements. For $300, from a reputable dealer, you can expect to buy a very nice watch that is water resistant and keeps excellent time.

The rep industry is peculiar, you can always have problems, but if you stay away from cheap junk and buy from reputable dealers, I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Bill

[By-Tor]

I've had about 15-20 reps with different movements and I never had ANY serious problems with them. None, zilch, zip. My seamaster clasp pin broke once, and one of my used 21.500bph Asian Valjoux had a chrono reset problem. But that's it. I've owned plenty of genuines (nothing very high end though... only TAGs, Tissots, etc.), but my father owns at least 6-7 very expensive gens. Of course they're better made, but I don't think the difference isn't as dramatic as some people suggest... especially with the newer reps. These things just tell the time. Even Timex can last for 25 years.

My dads genuine 1978 Rolex GMT Master feels flimsy, pathetic and cheap compared to almost any modern watch. Even compared to my rep GMT Master for Chrissakes! Besides the movement (Caliber 1560 I recall) the superior quality is quite difficult for us mortals to see... with that rattling, extraordinary flimsly bracelet and all... but of course when we go to more complicated watches it's a different story. Full gold Breguet Transatlantic simply can't be repped properly.

And I completely agree... the quality in parts (bracelets, clasps, crowns) and (sometimes) movement isn't there with reps... but visually they're amazingly close. I don't think the senior members here even suggested anything else... and that's mainly why we buy them. I could easily buy some nice gens, but to me reps are much more fascinating.

[mrnixon]

Now it gets a bit OT, but must say I am very impressed with the quality of the vintage Rolexes (the ones with 15XX caliber). I have been collecting vintage sport rolexes for 15 years (have had all of them appart from the Daytonas) You are right that the bracelet of the Rolex from the 60's and 70's are a bit weak, like almost all other brands from that time. But the movement is simply fantastic. I have for example a GMT Master from 1966, which still keeps time within the chronometer requirements. The same with my vintage Explorer 2 (the old one with big orange 24h hand).

I dont expect a rep to be that fantastic (would of course be fantastic if it is), but if it could stay in decent shape for a longer period of time I would be happy. But as some previously pointed out above, a good swiss movement is probably not the weakest link so if one is just a bit careful with outer parts I might last the same?

[omni]

A variety of opinions about rep collecting and its merits doesn't detract from this board. People whose idea of discourse is "I don't like what you have to say, so you should shut up or leave this board" do. You want to talk about unconstructive, THAT's unconstructive.

Unconstructive, true, people do not like to look in a mirror and see the truth.

[hambone]

I was just wondering if anyone else was annoyed with reading tvt's long winded constantly negative drivel?

This is not a "fake watch" forum, it is a replica watch forum and the dealers who are here by and large offer quality watches of which I have purchased many and have not had a single mechanical problem. Maybe I'm lucky. This is a terrific hobby that I think most of us love, and I think we can do without all the negative crap.

[TJGladeRaider]

Maybe a picture is worth a thousand words here:

General collection Swiss Mov't Rollies

Cost -- a little more than 1 gen Submariner. Which would you rather have?

Mostly Josh "Perfect" Subs/SD's

Cost - a little less than 1 gen Submariner. Which would you rather have?

Vintages - Including Four MBWs

Cost - a little less than 1 gen Submariner. Which would you rather have?

Put it another way. I could easily have acquired several gen Rollies for the MONEY I have spent on reps, and if I had put the TIME I have spent on this down on a billable time sheet instead, I could have bought another half dozen or so (at least).

This has been fascinating - who wants to be just another putz who can claim that they spent ten times what their watches are worth just so they can legitimately claim to have been screwed by Uncle Rollie.

Bill

[mrnixon]

I was just wondering if anyone else was annoyed with reading tvt's long winded constantly negative drivel?

This is not a "fake watch" forum, it is a replica watch forum and the dealers who are here by and large offer quality watches of which I have purchased many and have not had a single mechanical problem. Maybe I'm lucky. This is a terrific hobby that I think most of us love, and I think we can do without all the negative crap.

I liked tvts detailed and informing message. As I started the thread with the issue dealing with quality (problems) I guees it was my fault that the thread gets a bit problem focused, as it will be the nature of the the whole issue. Of course it is nicer to only talk about the nice stuff, but at least for me I was very informing to also see the down side.

[tvt]

Eaxctly Mrnixon!

it would be GREAT if there were only nice things to say. It would be WONDERFUL if these things never had problems and it really was a secret holy grail where we could enjoy all the good aspects of genuines with absolutley no down side. But sadly that is simply not the case and for some crazy, bizarre reason some people get offended if you ever point out the down side. They would prefer to either be an ostritch with it's head in the sand or a cheer leader at a rally simply patting each other on the back. I see absolutley no benefit to either of those approaches.

I never simply post negative comments for the sake of doing so or for the sake of bringing someone down. I certainly have NEVER attacked someone or called them or their opinions names (a courtesy sadly NOT extended to myself). However when someone such as yourself specificly asks for the truth I will ALWAYS give it to you, both the good (of which there is plenty) and the bad.

Hambone:

Just because someone does not agree with everything that everyone on the board says does not mean that they are negative and out to spoil the party. If you porefer to not ever read about anything negative being writen about a fake watch then you are just closing your eyes. Why not embrace the good AND the bad about these things? Then you can be truly aware of what is going on and make informed decisions.

Finally the whole "fake" versus "replica" thing. I have been through this many times so I will keep it short. I call them fakes because lets be honest, that is what they are and I just prefer the term as it is a more accurate reflection of the facts and the truth. To me a "fake" is no worse than a "replica".

[eddhead]

Ok, so now I am a bit confused. At least two posters here have referred to Chinese ETA's as copies. I was under the impression that these are not copies at all but rather movement manufactured in ETA's Chinese factory and not finished by the swiss. Does anyone knows which statement is correct? I do not really know how important this is to me, but if anyone knows for sure, yoru response is appreciated.

[Pugwash]

To R Tracy and Pugwash who did not like the topic. I appologize if my initial question sparked anger.

You misread me. I apologise that my writing must not have been clear enough. What I was trying to do was not be angry at you, but I was trying to clarify your question so I could best answer it.

At the beginning, you were trying to compare Panerai reps with ETA Auto gens, and I could see that if we didn't clear that up immediately, you'd base an entire debate on a false assumption. I hope this was dealt with before you hit your stride as we'd have all argued wrong corners and wasted an awful lot of time.

[Pugwash]

Ok, so now I am a bit confused. At least two posters here have referred to Chinese ETA's as copies. I was under the impression that these are not copies at all but rather movement manufactured in ETA's Chinese factory and not finished by the swiss. Does anyone knows which statement is correct? I do not really know how important this is to me, but if anyone knows for sure, yoru response is appreciated.

There were two movements stamped ETA that may not have been ETAs. This problem doesn't exist for the 2824/2836 movements, or the 7750/7753 chrono movements.

[tvt]

Eddhead:

Sorry if anything I said was confusing but I can see why it may have been, let me clarify.

Most ETA movements in these watches ARE genuine. When you hear someone say "swiss ETA" they are refering to a genuine ETA made movement. It gets confusing because those "swiss" movements are actually made in China, but in official ETA factories and meeting all the same quality requirements as the ones actually made in switzerland.

Now ASIDE from that we are now seeing Asian COPIES of swiss ETA movements. A common one is the Asian 7750, this is a Chinese made COPY of the Swiss ETA 7750 (in other words it is not made by ETA at all, just a copy of the movement). Most dealers refer to this as ASIAN 7750 so it is clear that it is a copy, but we are now seeing OTHER Chinese copies that are simply being refered to as ETA XXXX (sill in the model number). this is causing a lot of confusion because the only real way to know that you are buying a fake copy movement is that they are less expensive. If you are not familiar with prices you could EASILY buy a copy movement and think you were buying the genuine.

So you can see it is quite confusing. In general virtually all the movements in these watches are made in Chian, the main difference is that some are official ETA made movements while others are copies having nothing to do with ETA (and probably not matching the quality).

[eddhead]

Eddhead:

Sorry if anything I said was confusing but I can see why it may have been, let me clarify.

Most ETA movements in these watches ARE genuine. When you hear someone say "swiss ETA" they are refering to a genuine ETA made movement. It gets confusing because those "swiss" movements are actually made in China, but in official ETA factories and meeting all the same quality requirements as the ones actually made in switzerland.

Now ASIDE from that we are now seeing Asian COPIES of swiss ETA movements. A common one is the Asian 7750, this is a Chinese made COPY of the Swiss ETA 7750 (in other words it is not made by ETA at all, just a copy of the movement). Most dealers refer to this as ASIAN 7750 so it is clear that it is a copy, but we are now seeing OTHER Chinese copies that are simply being refered to as ETA XXXX (sill in the model number). this is causing a lot of confusion because the only real way to know that you are buying a fake copy movement is that they are less expensive. If you are not familiar with prices you could EASILY buy a copy movement and think you were buying the genuine.

So you can see it is quite confusing. In general virtually all the movements in these watches are made in Chian, the main difference is that some are official ETA made movements while others are copies having nothing to do with ETA (and probably not matching the quality).

Thanks for the through response. I am aware of the asian 7750's but did not know tht dealers were referiing to chinese copies as ETA's. When I read ETA i just assume it is made in their Chinese factories and not shipped back for finishing and QC. Thanks for clarifing (if that is possible.)

[Pugwash]

Thanks for the through response. I am aware of the asian 7750's but did not know tht dealers were referiing to chinese copies as ETA's. When I read ETA i just assume it is made in their Chinese factories and not shipped back for finishing and QC. Thanks for clarifing (if that is possible.)

The dealers here don't refer to the 7750 copies as ETAs.

These days, dealers referring to ETAs mean, like you said, ETAs made in either China or (rarely) Switzerland. In the past, this was not always the case.

[Richard Tracy]

To R Tracy and Pugwash who did not like the topic. I appologize if my initial question sparked anger. As I am new here, I did not know that quality issues were a bit sensitive and were to be avoided. I just wanted to learn to know more about that expect of a replica. The nice part of the reps, ie their design etc I can judge myself from look at gen or pictures, but the quality is almost impossible to judge from a picture so then at least I appreciate to hear comments from people with more experience.

MrNixon,.. It's not the topic, no, ... I welcome the topic,.and you.

You, and your question is what makes this place such an interesting one,

and what drives us, and this industry into higher realms.

So this is not directed at you.

No..I was referring to the waste of time,..

The Waste of time.

{in a watch forum }

We all know, that any mechanical item by it's very nature, is imperfect, especially watches,

Also that the field of replicas to this point, is a garden that requires a bit more pruning or

maybe better navigation through the paths.

Why is it, I seem to see the same people, sitting there shouting...

"There's a worm on the apples ... a grasshopper on the leaves,... "

I say, grab a hoe, a shovel, pair of clippers and get to work,..

Crying, never made an ochard grow,.. so if you don't have a solution,

or at least an inquiry into one, ...then please.. spare us your out of tune violin.

What is, amusing, at times, is that some of us are having a totally different experience

with replicas .... ever wonder why ?