Another 6263 Bezel Checkio - Gen Mk1?

[theblueprince]

I am going to stick my neck out here and say this is a gen Mk1. 

 

Brushed finished bezel edge, fonts, print and positioning seem spot on, angle of insert seems spot on - has that nearly concave look i've seen someone else mention.

 

It's def not WatchNY/Demseys, Phong, Swedish guy, DW (old or new) or any other aftermarket I've handled personally.

 

Source - gen vintage dealer/watchmaker with solid references on the gen forums.

 

What says you guys?

 

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

[davids100]

I say send it to me ASAP   

 

Look, whatever it is, it does the job. Now if you ask Gen or Franken... hard to tell  for sure without a x10 view on the printing.

 

So my guess is to this point of precision who cares if it wasn't a Gen? The price you paid for it probably the answer

[lhooq]

It looks like a genuine Mk 1 to me, too.

[theblueprince]

Cheers guys, have been checking against ref pics and pretty sure it's gen now. Happy days

[tonytuzz]

Not gen.  UNITS PER HOUR on gen is noticeably closer to outside edge.  This one looks closer to inside.  Also appears to be slight gaps between bakelite and ss.  Dot above 180 needs to be closer to to the 1. The bezel itself may be gen, but with aftermarket insert...it is very good, though. 

[lhooq]

I find distance-to-bezel to be an unreliable measure that's very dependent on the camera angle, due to the reverse-printed bezel insert.  As for the dot, it looks pretty good to me when compared with references.

 

[janeto72]

hey everyone...just wanted to chime in. Bezel is a very accurate aftermarket piece representing an MK1.

[tonytuzz]

I find distance-to-bezel to be an unreliable measure that's very dependent on the camera angle, due to the reverse-printed bezel insert.  As for the dot, it looks pretty good to me when compared with references.

Agreed camera angle can affect.  Is your image supposed to be a gen for reference?

 

I'm speaking as one who wears a gen most days (was may father's, bought new, and only serviced at Rolex)  I entered the rep world to find a suitable representation so I could put mine away and save some wear/tear as well as not put it at risk of me getting mugged, etc.

 

Mine has a RUSA service bezel on it now, and I still have the original somewhere.  The photos above are very close, but not exactly like the ones I have.  Probably pass as genuine when not magnified or studied by someone who has worn a gen daily for 26 years now...

[lhooq]

I'm up against a gen owner and janeto72; I know when I'm beat! 

 

Yes, the photo is from the blog of Stefano Mazzariol, who is my go-to reference for all things Daytona.  Is the pictured bezel also incorrect?

[theblueprince]

Yes camera angle makes a difference and the Units Per Hour position def varies slightly acorss gen bezels. On mine there is not any gaps i can see (which the reps do have) but some crud, dust etc whcih we also see on Mazzariol's pic. Now if we're gonna say Mazzariol's reference isn't gen either then i guess it's time we all re-evaluate everything we know!

 

If mine is aftermarket, where has it come from? It's not new, the wear on the underside where it's been pressed against a case for years has partially worn smooth the concentric machning circles (which also are exactly like gen) and old wear and tear on the steel has worn smooth which only comes with actual wear/use over time.

Edited September 22, 2014 by theblueprince

[theblueprince]

Suffice to say i've spent a good few hours looking at pics of these in the last few days. TBH I'm not really fussed if this is not gen, i will get a refund no problem or work something out with the seller as it's clearly a very nice bezel. I also have a gen Mk2 6265 bezel and was already happy with that before this came up. Would obviously like to have a definitive answer though but perhaps that will never be possible.

 

Playing devils advocate, thinking open-mindedly about the process of making these and then what happens to them over time.....

 

From looking at countless pics there are def v small differences between gen bezels of the same mark and the more i think about it the more that seems right. Think back 40+ years when these were made, no CAD/CAM, they were machine made but all those machines for printing, punching out the inserts etc would be setup manually for each batch and possibly operated manually as well. It's practically impossible that everything was exactly the same each time. We also know small variations exist in so many other different old parts. I assume that the reason for the major differences/fonts/set outs of different marks of bezel is either Rolex purposefully changing the design or switching to a different maker for each mark. These watches never sold in great numbers, the initial batches ordered would likely be relatively small. It's highly likely that the makers of the mark 1,2,3 bezels for sure produced many different small batches at different times and that these had very small variations between each batch of the same mark.

 

Now also think how many 40+ year old cases, dials, bracelets, inserts etc you see that have worn and aged in exactly the same way and now look exactly the same (especially under magnification).....pretty close to none i'm sure. Bezels get knocked, banged, levered off, pressed on, pinched, squeezed and generally take a good amount of wear and tear over the years. They were also not as readily replaced during service when suffering small damage as parts are today. Parts used to get repaired, re-brushed, re-edged, re-polished, inserts re-pressed etc. The only caveat would likely be that it still ensured the integrity of the crystal being pressed to the case and water-tightness etc. All in all i'd say the chances of any 2 old bezels like this that have been on watches most of their lives now looking exactly the same in every way especially under high magnification is again pretty close to none. 

[davids100]

1) Let's say you bought it $800, Live happy with it and think you bought a Gen one at a bargain price. 

 

2) Let's say you bought it $2000, can you live with a reasonnable doubt with regards to this expense?

 

Personnally if I were you and be in the 1st situation, I would be more than happy!!!

Again, the price you paid it will solve your dilemma

[janeto72]

I have seen enough gen Daytona's, have easy access to NOS vintage Daytona parts, many reference books, and  know exactly what to look for when it comes to gen parts.

I wish I could tell you this is gen; but unfortunately it is not.

[janeto72]

the vintage seller may not be aware him/herself either that this bezel is not gen.

[theblueprince]

I have seen enough gen Daytona's, have easy access to NOS vintage Daytona parts, many reference books, and  know exactly what to look for when it comes to gen parts.

I wish I could tell you this is gen; but unfortunately it is not.

 

So please tell us why so we know what to look for and i can return it

[janeto72]

bezel ring is too thick....font is not correct....machining is not correct.

[theblueprince]

Interesting, it looks the same as Mazzariol's example to me, am seeking further clarification of source/age etc. I am sure if it is not then the seller did not know this.

[janeto72]

I doubt the seller has any idea.I've seen this specific aftermarket bezel ring before.I have no idea where they are made; but they are "scary good".

[theblueprince]

Yes, the seller is sure it's gen and offered full refund straight away if i had any doubts. He's been in the game a long time and handled many of these. He picked it up a couple of years ago and it's obviously been used/worn so certainly not a newly made after-market item if it is indeed that. I've also now shown it to two of the big name gen Rolex world collectors/dealers who have likely handled 100's of these over decades in the game and they have both said it's gen. Of course anything anyone says with regards to vintage parts without provenance is just opinion. The reality of our hobby is that really the only way any part can 100% be certified gen is if it has unbroken provenance back to Rolex sale or manufacture. Perhaps this is why some people are happy or prefer to use newer service parts to avoid exactly this guessing game with the vintage parts. 

[lhooq]

The reality of our hobby is that really the only way any part can 100% be certified gen is if it has unbroken provenance back to Rolex sale or manufacture. Perhaps this is why some people are happy or prefer to use newer service parts to avoid exactly this guessing game with the vintage parts.

 

Although I yield to J's expertise, I am reminded the words of a wise man:

Remember the rolex trader's motto:

If it will pass for genuine...it becomes genuine. 

[janeto72]

if you can send a few more pics(closeup) of the font....I can give you a more definite answer..however...I stand by what I say. The aftermarket ones that I have seen have a vintage look to them, and show just a little wear...I have seen it all; but at this point I will not sway my opinion until I get a better look at the font.Two key areas would be the numbers 50, 140, . 4 in 140 kisses the 0. 5 in 50 almost touches the dot. As well, the font has a wing or pointed tip on several of the letters and numbers; but not all of them on the gens....need to take a closer look.

If I can see what makes me happy...i would change my mind; but i do not want to see you get ripped off.

[tonytuzz]

For reference- sorry for the poor quality images.  Genuine, watchNY (on an A7750 powered rep I bought from Josh a few years ago), DW, and the bezel that came off of the A7750 powered rep.

[tonytuzz]

Note the watchNY bezel printing is thicker and silver in color, while gen is white.  It appears brighter in person, just like the photos.

 

For my money, the DW is pretty good.

 

Also note the "2" on my bezels are the same as each other, but do not match the photos previously posted...

[theblueprince]

Hey, sorry i was away for a few days and forgot about this. 

 

Tony, your gen bezel above is mk4 service bezel so the 2's and a few other things are different from those on the earlier original bezels that this thread is about. 

 

Mine in question is off to join a motley collection of parts to (eventually) become a watch so I will take pics as requested when it returns now. 

[lhooq]

Note the watchNY bezel printing is thicker and silver in color, while gen is white.  It appears brighter in person, just like the photos.  For my money, the DW is pretty good.

 

For me, the worst part about DW's acrylic bezels are the mess of letters forming UNITS PER HOUR and the opening that's too narrow for a proper T21.  However, DW has fixed some of the former by recently releasing a new insert, seen below.  New fonts for both letters and numerals, plus corrected spacing.  Hopefully the print quality is still good, but I'm in no hurry to order from him again.  Ever.

 

 

Yikes, that was a bit big.  You can compare with the older DW bezel in my ancient bezel comparison thread.  Also interesting is DW's new batch of dials, which includes the prototype Yacht-Master.  Unbranded, of course.  (Wink-wink.)

 

 

I say again: This is NOT an endorsement for dealing with DW!