bruce79 Posted December 17, 2006 Report Share Posted December 17, 2006 Did the bracelets with the hollow end links/fold over ever come with the new diver extension clasp? Or did they come with the older style clasp? Like the one offered on our rep hollow link bracelets? I'm not talking a vintage sub but like a 16800 or 16610. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted December 18, 2006 Report Share Posted December 18, 2006 The correct bracelet for a 16800 is the 93150. This bracelet has the same clasp as the current bracelet, the 93250. A 93150 would have end pieces (hollow as you say) which were numbered for the specific model which they fit (like 580, 501) and those numbers correspond to a certain model of watch. For your 16800 Franken, a 93150 bracelet with 580 end pieces would be correct, as I recall. A good place to find this information is on Timezone under vintage or modern Rolex- these guys love to hash and rehash this trivia. I'm not really sure which bracelet an early 16610 (c. early 90's) would have, but if I had to guess, I'd say 93250, but I don't knpw if it originally came with the hollow end link pieces or solid end links like the current models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted December 18, 2006 Report Share Posted December 18, 2006 The correct bracelet for a 16800 is the 93150. This bracelet has the same clasp as the current bracelet, the 93250. A 93150 would have end pieces (hollow as you say) which were numbered for the specific model which they fit (like 580, 501) and those numbers correspond to a certain model of watch. For your 16800 Franken, a 93150 bracelet with 580 end pieces would be correct, as I recall. A good place to find this information is on Timezone under vintage or modern Rolex- these guys love to hash and rehash this trivia. I'm not really sure which bracelet an early 16610 (c. early 90's) would have, but if I had to guess, I'd say 93250, but I don't knpw if it originally came with the hollow end link pieces or solid end links like the current models. The first year for solid end links was 1998/1999 with the A serials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted December 18, 2006 Report Share Posted December 18, 2006 For all Sub dates using FF ends (i.e. up to U/A transitions), the 93150 would be correct. With the 93150, one could use 580, 585, or 593 FF's, as they are all acceptable ends with this model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewightstuff Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 just to add in, though not that its too important but the 580 was for the subs, 585 for the seadwellers and ive no idea what the 593 was from older subs used 280 or 380 before the jump to 580. who knows where 480 went Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce79 Posted December 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 I really appreciate your feedback. Does anybody know when the divers extension mech changed to the current one we have now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 I'm not sure, bruce. The other thing I'm wondering, and I feel like it was discussed but now I can't find it, is when did they switch from 1-piece SELs to 3-piece fused SELs? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 just to add in, though not that its too important but the 580 was for the subs, 585 for the seadwellers and ive no idea what the 593 was from I've seen a fair number of 1665's with 580's as well as some 1680's with 585's. Have also seen some with 501B's fitted, which I thought was even more odd. In fact, just this Summer, an all original white 1665 with 580's passed through my hands No rhyme or reason... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewightstuff Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 given the fact that they didnt seem to be able to put 5512 casebacks onto 5512 watches and vice versa with the 5513 its no wonder theres all sorts floating about when it comes to end links. the literature and all the rolex scholars state this as being the case theoretically. what actually left on the watches is another matter. i wonder if jewellers got them muddled over the years too. i bet may owners wouldnt notice a 580 being switched with a 585 in error somewhere. the 501b is for the GMT i think isnt it? ironically it seems that people care more about it now than anyone ever did back then 40 years ago. ive seen pics from the 60s wth people even diving in their subs. imagine the herecy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 I've come to understand that many scenarios are possible; some have indicated that watches may have left the factory with certain end links fitted that conflict with information we know as correct today... Some watches were indeed changed up by dealers and jewelers, as the 93150 with xxx end link was considered an upsale to certain models (i.e. 1655's with 78350's etc). And, of course, who knows what could have been changed out when watches are serviced at RSC's. 593's tend to be the popular end link of choice for service replacement, at least from what I've seen. So, who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewightstuff Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 (edited) who knows indeed. the inner workings of the rolex corp mind is a black hole to all (incl im sure their staff) and often the outer workings are just as bad lol. i get my kicks from how generally ropey their whole outfit was and indeed is in many ways. it makes me proud lol. . i have images of the vintages being created by befuddled guys in brown coats putting it all together in between cups of tea and permanent confusion. i also like to imagine that the different parts are not only enthusiastically embraced when discovered in a drawer and used even though they are 5 or more years out of date but that also often they cant make out what they were doing due to cup rings on the drawings covering vital info (like end link numbers). this would explain away quite nicely all the variety that appears quite paradoxically to the huge brand reliability. not only is it impossible to get a handle on the confusion but just when you think you can imagine how confused the whole thing is, something pops up (like The Zigmeisters 5508) and makes you realise you werent even close. im glad i dont write rolex history books, id go insane. even the official literature is often bunkum. one recent discussion brought out the official books to check a model for details and the official pic, in the official rolex bible was of a totally different watch. Edited December 21, 2006 by thewightstuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 I suspect that things will only get worse as the RSC's start refusing service of 15xx based watches. Imagine how crazy things will become once watches have to go to independent watchmakers for service; replacement parts may be limited to what a watchsmith has NOS from their old inventory back when they had a parts account with the ol' coronet. Imagine what that will do to the values and prices of genuine parts on the grey market. Maybe we'll start seeing 580's selling for $400 a pair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewightstuff Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 (edited) boring old movement parts seem to be pretty much ok within the rolex world and the word is that theres plenty around freely to keep movements going for many years. im touching a large portion of wood that this is true. other parts though are going crazy though for sure. cosmetic bits are a preverbial PITA to get now and things are going for crazy money. anything spare is just being sucked up. theres a few immediate reasons that spring to mind why this is the case but to tell the truth, ive no real idea why this is so at all. it seems many are as confused about it as me. all i can say is that there no greater number of gen vintages going around than previously but that the market for the parts has increased significantly. it seems that theres an even greyer market existing thats quite hidden and allows movement of bits to flow amongst the vintage enthusiast. i know ive met a few good people recently and things now appear reasonably readily that would otherwise remain unavailable. your prophecy for $400 580s may not be as far away sadly as it would be hoped. its already over $100 for a good pair and bracelets are soaring upwards while the word mint near anything external causes cash registers to ring the world over Edited December 21, 2006 by thewightstuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Indeed... If you are in the 'circle of trust', then sourcing certain parts is a piece of cake. This is also why I say that most any 6263 dial (or insert your choice of popular vintage Rolex Sports dial here) that ends up on eBay is either going to be fake or a redial- most legit dials would likely never make it to the eBay market (though there are certain exceptions from key individuals). Perhaps us frankenstein builders also have some responsibility in the price/value hikes of vintage cosmetic parts. With some of us seeking certain bits and pieces for our projects, prices are bound to go up- Either to gouge us for all we're worth, or as an attempt to try and deter us from even wanting to buy the parts? Can't say for certain, but I do believe this to be another theory to consider... Interesting that one can buy a pair of end links for a watch from an RSC for $50 - $60 with the service of a watch, yet on the grey market they sell for more than double... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewightstuff Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 ive found that often, the price of parts privately sadly arent that much less than would be found if they were released on the free market (ignoring the ebay factor to drive them up). the only difference is that they can be had...eventually. i do think the growing rep market holds much responsibility. id suggest franken enthusiasts have little bearing as they probably are absorbed in with the gen owners. thousands of people wanting an insert and crystal for every model in their large collection though is a different matter when supplies are restricted. used going for more than RSC new is also very interesting. on the surface it would seem evidence to the rep market being a cause as they have no access to RSC however in addition my feeling is that many gen owners are being turned away by RSC slowly and many more are thinking hard about sending in their watches for fear of loosing their dials and hands. all of this is conspiring collectively to make life uncomfortable it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 ive found that often, the price of parts privately sadly arent that much less than would be found if they were released on the free market (ignoring the ebay factor to drive them up). the only difference is that they can be had...eventually. Ahhh, yes. But, the folks in that little circle have the disposable cash to drop on high dollar items without batting an eye. The same folks who don't think twice when paying out six figures for a correct PN 6263. Damn them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewightstuff Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 thats true for sure. when you see something rare crop up you can bet your life that theres going to be people with serious backing after it and able to spend amounts youd cry over without even thinking twice. just look at the close prices on the latest antiquorium sale to scare you witless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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