Opinion Poll: Do The Rep Makers Purposely Change Them

[crystalcranium]

That vid was quite an eye opener. Now, it could be that our dealers here, who have become the cream of the crop, have terrific networks that allow them contact with reliable assemblers that have access to the best parts etc...but the process is still a home baked industry. There is no "Little Le Locle" in the rural hills in China turning out quality controlled 99% reps. The reality is probably a network of highly skilled and well networked mom and pop operations that have themselves interlaced with the best decentralized parts manufacturers to produce, while they can, a higher quality product. But this is why there's an ever changing ideal. The product is variable because it is at the whim of so many uncontrolled influences. I guess when we look at a new generation of a replica and wonder why so many things we wanted addressed have been, but several things we took for granted qualitywise have fallen off, the answer lies in this web of suppliers and assemblers. Better cases and crowns this time around but they couldn't get the old terrific dials....is a common complaint and understandable scenario.

[ubiquitous]

In order for a watch maker to somehow centralize and operation and instal real quality control would be a HUGE operation, cost all sorts of money and be at constant risk of being shut down. It simply does not pay for that person to make those changes, he has zero incentive.

I agree with this, yet there are certain things that make me believe that centralized operations do exist.

For example... Angus' Big Bang thread. Seems that perhaps it's one operation that's overseeing complete production of this one, from parts manufacturing to assembly.

[crystalcranium]

I agree with this, yet there are certain things that make me believe that centralized operations do exist.

For example... Angus' Big Bang thread. Seems that perhaps it's one operation that's overseeing complete production of this one, from parts manufacturing to assembly.

And those operations and knowlege of them is something I'm so grateful to RWG for because without the insider information it IS a crapshoot.

I hope my much hoped for "next step in our evolution" as replica collectors will be a larger community of connected assemblers we have direct access to. It would be ideal to request custom high quality assemblies and allow the producers the security of a large enthusiastic consumer base

[Richard Tracy]

I don't agree that the name on the dial brings you automatically into center target.

As all things in life it's a matter of Degrees and Energy.

Degrees of accuracy is of the utmost importance, as it separates those who are

selling 'replicas' for novelty, from those who are creating counterfeits that could be passed off as real.

Two totally different areas.

Same as the difference between a print, or a forgery.

Energy equates the resources that any law enforcement agency can afford to expend, which are limited.

Therefore they focus their sights on the processes that could result in a man paying $20k for a $200 watch.

{though in reality, All are $200 watches}

What has started however as a way for replica manufacturers to remain, out of phase, has turned out to be a gold mine,

as they morph accuracies like a game, that keep us coming back again and again, for 'New Releases'...or updates...

[crystalcranium]

I don't know Richard, we're screaming for perfect forgeries and declaring how we'll pay top dollar for them but so far, no dice. I find it hard to believe it's because of fear of the hammer. There are plenty of other business that cater to the illegal wants and desires of the public without fear of retribution.

To me, a perfect forgery (one that could seriously threaten value of the genuines on the market) would have to be indistinguishable inside and out right down to the accuracy and traceability of serial numbers and movement caliber. Anything less than that is a replica and anyone who buys a replica and pays a genuine price for it is not a responsible buyer. The level of accuracy we are talking about here is not forgery class, not by a long shot and in my opinion, that class of copy is well beyond the ability of the replica state of the art as it exists today or will exist in the near furure.

Now, if seagul makes a 3135 copy that's close, that might make for some mischeif

[ubiquitous]

Ahhhh... I'm sure some of you guys remember the perfect 'old factory' Omega Seamasters. Short lived and put out of commission due to being too accurate...

...or so the story goes

[tvt]

>>>For example... Angus' Big Bang thread. Seems that perhaps it's one operation that's overseeing complete production of this one, from parts manufacturing to assembly.

<<<

Right, this is a new trend we are seeing and quite different from the normal mass produced subs or what have you. Of course it pays for the maker to use collectors as a resource for making better copies. First of all they get to sell a great copy to all of us, and then they still can sell them to the meat of the market, all those markets and alley ways or what have you. All those people will still buy these watches even if they do not realize how much better they are because of the front end time put into them. So it is a win win or atleast I hope it turns out that way for Angus and the maker because it will encourage more special projects like the Big Bang. Sadly it also means that these watches will be sold more and more as gens on eBay and wherever else people can get away with it.

>>>Degrees of accuracy is of the utmost importance, as it separates those who are

selling 'replicas' for novelty, from those who are creating counterfeits that could be passed off as real.

Two totally different areas.

Same as the difference between a print, or a forgery.<<<

I'm just telling you that this is not how trademark law works. It is not an opinion here, just a factual statement. These minor differences or even HUGE FLAWS make absolutley no difference in the eyes of the law. I don't Know if Rolex cares any less about some cheap watches which are obviously not genuine as compared to really good fakes that might be confused as the real deal. Maybe they DO care more about the more realistic ones but in the eyes of the law the cheap inaccurate fake and the 99% accurate fake are the exact same thing.

Plus we are talking about TINY inaccuracies. These things such as the size of a second hand or crown, the difference between bright white or off white printing, the serial numbers, the thickness of a crystal, AR coating and so forth certainly woud never be anything close to enough to make the watch fall into a "novelty" category even if that did mean something.

I do think that Rolex has to choose it's fights and may be more interested in stopping the really good fakes while allowing the $10 brass crap to be sold on the sidewalks... but again, the flaws we are talking about would not separate these watches into the cheap category.

The idea that a watch maker intentionally creates a near perfect looking watch, but then has one or two tiny flaws in order to skirt the law is just wrong, it just does not work that way.

And the real difference between a print and a forgery is that a print is either created by the original artist or is authorized by the original artist or his estate. A forgery is trying to pass itself off as genuine. But ALL "fake" or "reaplica" watches fall into the later category because NONE of them are authorized. This is why I do not like the term replica. To me replica implies something more like a print, an authorized reproduction of something.

[MJP]

I've said it before, in the spirit of ubiquitous' post, I'd love to commission a short run of some parts to be made, specifically a new dial and datewheel for the swiss PAM250. B(uild)IY.

The more people out there who can reach a site like RWG before buying the better--forcing makers to ideally keep the quality up if they want to sell watches

The watch that really got this thread going for me was the Flieger--rated like #5 in "the best" list but it has so many dial problems that could have been easily corrected. The rest of the watch overall looks [censored], but they decided to skew the top sub numbers, exclude the white circles around the subs, etc. I'm still not sure why it is on the list.

[MJP]

No, ubiquitous, I've never heard that story--interesting. Is it for sure true? That would seem to back up my first theory.

[Richard Tracy]

Ahhhh... I'm sure some of you guys remember the perfect 'old factory' Omega Seamasters. Short lived and put out of commission due to being too accurate...

...or so the story goes

... so true, I actually own one of those.. it's my avatar...

[crystalcranium]

The idea that a watch maker intentionally creates a near perfect looking watch, but then has one or two tiny flaws in order to skirt the law is just wrong, it just does not work that way.

Agreed. I can't imagine someone in the basement of their grandmother's house in the outskirts of Bejing assembling 1000 near perfect replicas a week making sure he obtains the caseback with the tiny error on it to cover his ass in case Rolex comes knocking.

[ubiquitous]

MJP-

Once upon a time, there were a very short run of 'perfect' Omega SMP's that were produced. These specific pieces were near identical with the gen- true, actual 1:1 cases, variation in serial numbers, etc. The movment inside was a 2892 Seagull copy, but it certainly looked the part, and functioned the same (thanks to being a relatively simple movement). Apparently, the factory was raided and shut down as the copies they were churning out were so precise that the Richemont Group actively pursued this 'factory's' demise.

Now... How much of it is true? I dunno. It's kind of like an old wive's tale. But, as with most rumors, I'm sure there is a bit of truth to the underlying element. Afterall, we've not seen an SMP nearly as accurate since. The ones that are available are close; but not the same...

[ubiquitous]

Oh... I also believe that the process of building reps differs from geographic region. A good example would be the vintage Rolex MBW's; for years, these watches have gone largely unchanged in terms of parts and overall quality. Of course, these watches are produced in Thailand, and I suspect from an actual factory dedicated to building these watches. The consistency in parts is what convinces me of this...

[Richard Tracy]

Agreed. I can't imagine someone in the basement of their grandmother's house in the outskirts of Bejing assembling 1000 near perfect replicas a week making sure he obtains the caseback with the tiny error on it to cover his ass in case Rolex comes knocking.

Actually a bit more complicated than that,.. think countries,.. one obtains tourism perks, jobs and additional taxes

from manufacturers who produce replicas,.. however those manufacturers keep the steam generated by heat

from outside countries aimed in other directions, by claiming the novelty label, knowing that the law by nature of

resources, concentrate on those criminals who are are attempting to replace genuine product,

which our Replica watches in Fact, are Not.

We can sit here in a replica board wishing all we want for perfect replicas.. but it will never happen in

the open.. even mbw hides, and only sells purposley modifiable watches that are altered outside of

their knowledge or direction.

Accuracy is the Key,... and the Lock.

[crystalcranium]

Actually more complicated than that,.. think countries,.. one obtains tourism perks, jobs and additional taxes

from manufacturers who produce replicas,.. however those manufacturers keep the steam generated by heat

from outside countries aimed in other directions, by claiming the novelty label, knowing that the law by nature of resources, concentrate on those criminals who are are attempting to replace genuine product,

which our Replica watches in Fact, are Not.

We can sit here in a replica board wishing all we want for perfect replicas.. but it will never happen in

the open.. even mbw hides, and only sells purposley modifiable watches that are altered outside of

their knowledge or direction.

Accuracy is the Key,... and the Lock.

Richard, you are deep man!!!

[ubiquitous]

K-

I do agree with that. Pieces like vintage MBW's will get you 80% of the way there... With the means to take it further, though that's up to the owner. Granted, the cost to fit genuine parts to a watch is a bit prohibitive, but I'm sure that if they offered a fully modded piece with gen parts, there would still be a market for them.

I do believe that they purposely flaw the watches to an extent- Otherwise, why even bother making them 1:1 with the ability to swap gen parts?

EDIT: Come to think of it... MBW can offer pieces modded with gen parts. I've seen 1655's with 1575's fitted, 6263's with V72's and so on... All from MBW, and un-modded by any 3rd party hands.

[Richard Tracy]

Richard, you are deep man!!!

Let's keep it respectful...

Just try to see it from the view of the most populated country on earth struggling

to feed their people, while juggling international law and opinion...

It eliminates the luxury of black or white, and allows to live all shades between...

[crystalcranium]

Let's keep it respectful...

Just try to see it from the view of the most populated country on earth struggling

to feed their people, while juggling international law and opinion...

It eliminates the luxury of black or white, and allows to live all shades between...

[ubiquitous]

So, MJP... What do you think? Clear as mud, eh?

Personally, I think that the rep inaccuracies are the result of a combination of the factors and theories presented in this thread- And then some. In the end... I suppose it's anyone's guess; I suspect that not even those putting these watches together know.

[MJP]

Clear as mud is right.

Alls I know is I want a perfect updated Black PanDa 2006, and I am going to use this forum to squeak like a wheel for it.

[rolex666]

It is just my feeling on this. Of course, they want to make it as good as possible but in reality they cannot do it. Let's look how a watch can be made. The case, the dial, the hands, crown etc..... There are a lot of metal works which need a reasonable size machine and a good mold (which will be worn out after xxx run).

There are factories that make dial, hands, etc and no one factory makes all. Just the 'assembler' guy gets from different factories and make a watch out of it. It is not a legal business and no one want to keep high volume of stock, so, once the 'assembler' guy goes for production, he will get what ever available in the market and make a watch out of it. He will not wait for a week to get a better hand etc... etc... He will ty to get his investment back ASAP and the shorter time he gets hold of the watch, the shorter time of the risk being caught. Very normal behaviour.

So, in case you find a good batch of reps, get it right away, it may not last long and you may get another batch that may be totally different.

[wan]

I agree with many points everyone has raised.........I think the two biggest are first: There are so many factories that they all are making there version, which makes it hard to get better.

second: I think its like computer companys or any tech company, you put out the first generation and just upgrade every 6months or so. Like the i-pod, unless you waited until recent to buy one.....You have the old version,and are ready to upgrade..................Also, i think if there was a factory that made absolute perfect reps of Rolex and Panerai, the fear of the companys coming after them would make them hold back just a bit so the people who could tell the diffrences could share there info. That way with a bit of knowlege anyone can detect a rep from gen. "as it is now"..........If the reps were too good to tell without opening them up? "like it seems some might get in the near future" That makes me want to buy a gen, only at an AD...........There will always be the guy who will be fooled, but what if reps started fooling the informed people like us?......(Half of me says "bring it on" and the other half says "dont sell it that way, just let me mod it that way").......I like Modding my 95% accurate rep into 99.99% gen looking and i hope they dont take that away from me.................Thanks, Wan