docblackrock Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 What with all this recent discussion about copy 'copy' movts being used (asian 'ultimate' PO, Seagull, inferior asian 7750s, basterdized GMT modules on 2836 etc.), and since we all know ETA are trying to limit supply to in-house only, and discontinuing some models (7753) all of which means prices have been hiked up everywhere.....somewhere along the line, I had a thought Instead of obssessing about slight cosmetic imperfections and correcting those, why don't the factorys/dealers/watchsmiths/movement manufacturers concentrate on dealing with replicating a reliable 'pure' chrono movt with 3/6/9 subdials??? With the 7753 discontinued (and the PAM187 project god knows where), I'm talking about using the 2894 (see pic below) as a base (used in Invicta gens et al. also pic below). I'd just like to see some ingenuity put into movement development. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 With the 7753 discontinued (and the PAM187 project god knows where), I'm talking about using the 2894 (see pic below) as a base (used in Invicta gens et al. also pic below). The 2894 is a really complex movement. It's hardcore. At this point, why not rep the El Primero. ps. One reason the 2894 is hard to rep: It's very, very slim. Another, the amount of torque produced on the chrono flyback means if you ever remove the second hand, you need a new one. Also, you need special tools to even look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonton2000 Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Also, you need special tools to even look at it. Eyes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docblackrock Posted January 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 The 2894 is a really complex movement. It's hardcore. At this point, why not rep the El Primero. ps. One reason the 2894 is hard to rep: It's very, very slim. Another, the amount of torque produced on the chrono flyback means if you ever remove the second hand, you need a new one. Also, you need special tools to even look at it. Really, I was led to understand it was essentially a basic chrono module stuck onto a base movt? Marketed very differently of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docblackrock Posted January 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Eyes Don't forget geeky spectacles with two inch thick lenses.....and a 'polarised' 25x loupe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Really, I was led to understand it was essentially a basic chrono module stuck onto a base movt? Marketed very differently of course You're right, but only in the way a Ducati racebike is just an engine stuck in a frame. Anthrax Bloke on the 2894: http://www.spitzwatch.com/WatchMaking/eta/index.html Google will yield many results on the 2894, but this is the most fun. Ofrei's description: "12.25 ligne, 37 jewels, Incabloc shock protection, automatic, sweep seconds, date at 4 o'clock. This is ETA’s newest, finest and now highest-grade movement to date. It has been promoted in the major publications directed at the professional watchmakers and jewelers as a symbol of their watchmaking brilliance. Don’t forget the fact that this is an 12.25 ligne automatic chronograph which is quite an accomplishment. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docblackrock Posted January 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Ok it may be packed in tightly to the point of bursting open without special fixtures and sure it may be exceptionally thin blah blah blah.... But, perhaps I wasn't clear - I'm not talking about a 1:1 copy of the 2894 per se machined to such exceptionally high specs, rather an analagous approximation; i.e. making the same configuration using the same principles as the 2894, hell I don't care if it's 11.5 or 12.5 lignes, X or Y mm thick, I'd just like a decent 3/6/9/ chrono movement rather than a basterdized 7750 with shitty subdial transfer gears. Surely it's possible? After all, it's still just a module. Bolted on. To base movement. Fact. Your comment about the EP doesn't really apply as that is a true integrated chrono (the best!) with all the craftmanship and ingenuity which that implies/entails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 I do see what you're getting at and we do need a decent tri-compax rep movement, but if we're going to get one, it has to be the right thickness otherwise our reps would be too deep. I'd like one that's flippable from seconds at 3 (2894) to seconds at 9 (7753), but I'm probably asking too much. However, I reckon something has to be done as ETA have pretty much phased out the 7753 in favour of the $400 2894 and as such, our ingenious Chinese friends will have to come up with a solution for the new Breitlings, TAGs, etc. that use the seconds-at-3 movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r11co Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 The 7753 would be an easier movement to replicate, especially as something else so similar (7750) has already been done, and a lot of the base parts are the same!! Trouble is, as with many things in life, once a bodged solution is produced that enough people are prepared to live with then there is no incentive to improve on it. The transfer gears exist, so they are going to get used - even if someone has since taken the time to refine them a bit (as per the latest Navitimers!) It's the El Primero I want to see repped though as it would open the door to a huge seam of accurate reps of desirable watches... TAG Monza/Calbre 36, vintage Daytonas, PO Chrono etc. etc. etc..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docblackrock Posted January 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 The 7753 would be an easier movement to replicate, especially as something else so similar (7750) has already been done, and a lot of the base parts are the same!! Trouble is, as with many things in life, once a bodged solution is produced that enough people are prepared to live with then there is no incentive to improve on it. The transfer gears exist, so they are going to get used - even if someone has since taken the time to refine them a bit (as per the latest Navitimers!) It's the El Primero I want to see repped though as it would open the door to a huge seam of accurate reps of desirable watches... TAG Monza/Calbre 36, vintage Daytonas, PO Chrono etc. etc. etc..... Aaaah, we can but dream Rico - sadly, no way in hell the EP will be repped which is why the Monza c.36 is on my gen 2007 'buy list'. You're right in that a copy 7753 would be by far the best bet. I do wonder what the inordinate delay on the 7753 PAM 187 is all about (what 7 months or more now FFS?!) - surely they can either lay their hands on NOS inventory clearance 7753s or not?! The 7753 196s came out not long after the 7750 versions, after all. No, I suspect there's some smoke and mirrors, jiggery-pokery etc. going on and would not be surprised in the least to see a clone 7753 rolled out in the not too distant future. Similar $700 price though I'll bet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RiverwindMDS Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 The 7753 would be an easier movement to replicate, especially as something else so similar (7750) has already been done, and a lot of the base parts are the same!! Trouble is, as with many things in life, once a bodged solution is produced that enough people are prepared to live with then there is no incentive to improve on it. The transfer gears exist, so they are going to get used - even if someone has since taken the time to refine them a bit (as per the latest Navitimers!) It's the El Primero I want to see repped though as it would open the door to a huge seam of accurate reps of desirable watches... TAG Monza/Calbre 36, vintage Daytonas, PO Chrono etc. etc. etc..... What is the difference with the NAVITIMER movements, can you get me an example? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 What is the difference with the NAVITIMER movements, can you get me an example? Navitimers today use a 7753. Our copies use a 7750 with transfer wheels, raising the dial. This gives us a recessed datewheel. The newer transfer wheels on the latest 28k Navitimers are tidier, according to The Zigmeister, and have a plate to stop the datewheel flapping about, which would normally be handled by the dial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 The 7753 does have one major problem.. it has no quick set date, hance the reason that Panerai fit the date change pusher on the 196 and 187 models. Other brands like Breitling ask you to cycle from 8pm to 2am and back to "rapidly" change the date. Incedently one of the dealers was showing a Cartier santos 100 chrono with a 7753 movement recently so there must be a few 7753 movements around still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elprimerozen Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 ..Or they can try to copy the reliable 2824 with Dubois-Depraz module with runing sec at 6 wich is the movement that the omega speedmaster "reduced" have what do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elprimerozen Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 ..Or they can try to copy the reliable 2824 with Dubois-Depraz module with runing sec at 3 wich is the movement that the omega speedmaster "reduced" have what do you think? sorry mistake runing sec at 3!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonton2000 Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Incedently one of the dealers was showing a Cartier santos 100 chrono with a 7753 movement recently so there must be a few 7753 movements around still. Which dealer was that? I was waiting for one of those Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RiverwindMDS Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Which dealer was that? I was waiting for one of those mee too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r11co Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 ..Or they can try to copy the reliable 2824 with Dubois-Depraz module with runing sec at 3 wich is the movement that the omega speedmaster "reduced" have what do you think? I think it's a no-brainer! How many other watches use this module though? How many of them would be popular enough to rep and justify the creation of the module? It's a development I'd love to see happen though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 The 7753 does have one major problem.. it has no quick set date, hance the reason that Panerai fit the date change pusher on the 196 and 187 models. Other brands like Breitling ask you to cycle from 8pm to 2am and back to "rapidly" change the date. Incedently one of the dealers was showing a Cartier santos 100 chrono with a 7753 movement recently so there must be a few 7753 movements around still. The 7753 does indeed have a quick date set pusher, it's right next to the balance wheel, and needs and external pusher at the 10 position on the case to activate it. The reason the quick date set pusher in where it is, is due to the 3 transfer gears on the 12-3 30 minute counter, and the fact the datewheel is above the gears not below them as in the case in the Asian copy... there is no room to have a quick dateset assembly connected to the crown/stem, which is why it's where it is. Panerai did not "fit" the quickset pusher on the movement (they dont' even build movemnets) they put a pusher in the case, to line up with the one built into the ETA 7753 movement. The 2894 chrono attachement plate, does not contain any user (watchmaker) parts, it's not capable of being opened or serviced by anyone other than the ETA factory...very complex and scarry...even scarrier than a El Primero... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 you need special tools to even look at it. the movement nazi - "No movement for you!" anyway - ok, i understand the el primero is a complicated movement and yes, ok were not going to get 36000bph But seriously why is it so difficult to create new movements with different dial spacing or seconds at 3? I mean, just cause there is no copy, with what they are doing anyway with copies and modifications, how hard is it to just make a custom movement from basically scratch? or from a kit to start like the more complicated watchmakers do. I guess, you would have the problem of parts? We could have like the Jos Nana Calibre 666 or the EL Calibre 1-900-pimpster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 @The Zigmeister Sorry what I meant was that Panerai fit the date change pusher to the case, I'm aware that the movement comes with the function fitted. I probably wasn't clear enough in my post. @Others The 7753 Cartier is on the Japanese site of a dealer who used to be know as watchonpo. I don't know what he's called now. Heres a link: http://shopping.e-conveni.net/item_info.ht..._id=973520& Its worth asking some of the other dealers if they can get this one. I know River often gets the same watches as the japanese dealers so he might be a good place to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Actually that same japanese site also has a new run of Panerai 251's with the 7753 as well. So maybe the 7753 based 187 isn't quite the fantasy model we're thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovepanerai Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Actually that same japanese site also has a new run of Panerai 251's with the 7753 as well. So maybe the 7753 based 187 isn't quite the fantasy model we're thinking. is is a shame that the re-run of the 251s still has the incorrect new case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonton2000 Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Oh but the 7753 Santos 100 Chrono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 @lovepanerai Quite right.. theres a good reason I'm hanging on to my 7753 based 196 from the original batch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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