Question on mainspring and barrel, oiling etc.?

[Timelord]

I pulled apart an eta 2824–2 to see why it kept stopping prematurely and noticed a broken mainspring!

 

got a new mainspring and was wondering what the most economical oil and grease to use apart from the usual  moebius oils.  I usually put the Mainspring back in by hand.  Pain in the a$@  Is it sometimes better to buy a clone barrel with mainspring already in it or does one need to remove it from barrel  to grease and oil it again ,to go through he same ordeal.thanks in advance!

[automatico]

New swiss MS come pre lubed with a dry lubricant and all you need to do is put some 'braking grease' on the mainspring barrel wall so the bridle will slip inside the barrel.  I do not know if Asian etaclone MS come lubed or not whether purchased loose or in a MS barrel so it might be a good idea to lube the barrel wall at least.  I use Moebius  8201 because it seems to work just fine, it is basically molybdenum disulphide suspended in oil.

Some use 8212 and I have some but always go with 8201 because of habit.  Moebius 8212 was/is made to be used on aluminum MS barrels but I hardly ever see one.

If you do not have the 'M' brand you can probably get by with any brand of thick oil/grease made to use on MS barrels. 

 

If the MS is dry or has been cleaned, you can either pull it through a rag with 8201 etc on the rag or oil the barrel wall in a few spots and put a few small drops on the barrel floor and a few on top of the MS after it has been loaded in the barrel.  I use thick oil on the MS arbor where it passes through the barrel floor and cap...D5 because I have it and it works Ok.

 

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/greases

 

The problem today with watch oil/grease is it all has jumped waaay up in price for basically no reason other than they are getting their price and Moebius is leading the parade.  You might find a bottle of MS oil on eBay or from a retired watch guy at a low price.

 

Otoh...

I used to do some case work for a small watch shop and a guy who hung around the shop was always 'borrowing' tools and oilers and not putting them back.  One day he was complaining about an empty oiler (not his) and after he went home we put '3 in 1' oil in the oiler and put it back on the bench.  He oiled watches with it for years with no problems at all...mostly vintage LeCoultre, swiss chronographs, and a rolex now and then.

 

 

I bet 90% of the 'gotta-have-it brands' of watch oil make claims that are 90% BS.  Same for expiration dates...watch oil used to not have an expiration date.  If you keep the cap on, do not let it get hot, and keep it out of direct sunlight it will probably last for a looong time.  I know a guy who still uses Elgin M-56B watch oil in old snap back vintage watches and it is 50 or 60 years old. 

 

[Timelord]

Thanks!  Great information!  
 

 Do you use the 8201 as A braking grease As well as the MS lubricant?  What is the difference between the 8201 and 8200?

[automatico]

"Do you use the 8201 as A braking grease As well as the MS lubricant?"

 

I use 8201 on the wall and put a few small drops of the same on the MS barrel floor and top of MS coils before snapping the cap on if the MS has been cleaned.  This seems to work Ok.  As long as the MS has some thick oil between the coils (after it has been cleaned) it will work just fine.  New MS can get by with a drop or two of oil (just to be sure it is lubed) or you can depend on the factory dry lubricant.  The barrel wall is the most critical part and needs the proper spec oil. 

 

All the above pertains to automatics...manual wind watches only need a bit of oil on the coils as the MS does not slide against the barrel wall.  There are exceptions of course...manual wind watches with automatic type mainspring barrels or watches with the autowind assembly removed.  I have a watch with a Seagull ST16 with the autowind works removed and I cleaned and oiled the MS barrel and spring same as a full automatic.  I wind it about 40 cranks to start with then 26 or 28 cranks a day and it runs fine.

 

"What is the difference between the 8201 and 8200?"

 

From:

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/greases

8200...Semi-fluid thixotropic grease with good adhesion and excellent lubricity.  Ideal for mobiles and large surfaces friction.  Also suitable for the lubrication of ball bearings.  Can be melted used in hot condition.

8201...Semi-fluid thixotropic grease similar to 8200.  The addition of Molybdenum bisulfide (MoS2) enhances its lubricity and improves the resistance to pressure.

 

[Timelord]

Thank you !  Thank you!  
 

I will try it, as I just cannot see why one needs a hundred different types of oils when what you say has always worked!

 

the wealth of information found here, makes this more of a group of scientists than watch makers/hobbyists,  I feel privileged! 

[ceejay]

There are eBay sellers that sell decants of Moebius lubricants (and other brands) I went down this route with the Horotec Episurf-Neo (epilame treatment) got 5ml as 100ml would evaporate faster than I use it!

 

Handwinding mainsprings is never a good idea. New mainsprings will general just slip straight into the barrel from there retainer, just a little braking grease on the barrel is all that's required.

If a new mainspring is available, then use it. 10 bucks for a spring is worth it just for the peace of mind.

If a new mainspring is not available then a drop of D5 on a lint free rag and the spring pulled through. Invest in a set of Mainspring winders, the Chinese sets will suffice as long as you use them carefully and are not doing too many springs with them (the brass arbor hooks are their weak point)

 

Gone over most of what was said by @automatico good, sound advice.

[Timelord]

On 10/3/2020 at 6:37 PM, ceejay said:

 

If a new mainspring is available, then use it. 10 bucks for a spring is worth it just for the peace of mind.

 

Thanks!   10 dollars seems rather good price!  Is it a clone part?   I was thinking about a clone MS as they are cheaper and just a spring that would best be replaced at its next service!  I am not sure if the clone Springs would be lubricated and would they fit straight into the barrel straight from the package like the genuine?  One of the reasons I opted for a genuine!

 

i never hand wind these automatics because of the reverser wheels being so fickle and not only expensive but now becoming near impossible to get!

[automatico]

"I never hand wind these automatics because of the reverser wheels being so fickle and not only expensive but now becoming near impossible to get!"

 

I use the 'light oil in solvent/evaporation' method to lightly oil them and it seems to work Ok and use D5 on the pivots where they run in the jewels because there is a lot of load on them.  

 

I have not ordered any ETA movement parts in years, is Swatch/ETA cutting parts off too?

Mainsprings are basically a 'watch commodity' and can be ordered by width, thickness, and length or simply by calibre number.  

Last time I bought ETA 28xx MS they were about $8, long time ago.

 

Btw ST has 2824 MS barrels complete for $17.95:

Barrel complete for ETA 2824-2
Store Price: $17.95

'Complete' usually means with MS, it could mean with arbor, no MS in this case though.  I never ordered one.

 

Mainspring for ETA 2824-2
Store Price: $12.95

 

Reversing Wheel ETA 2824-2
21 and 25 Jewel
Store Price: $11.95

 

Standard Grade ETA 2824-2 Timed and Regulated Balance with Stud
Store Price: $32.95

 

In a 1995 rolex parts price list from DRS in NYC...MS barrels with arbor for 1530, 3035, 3135 were $20.  Reversers were $25.  Balance complete was $160.

...and they were making $$ on them.

 

[Timelord]

22 hours ago, automatico said:

 

Mainspring for ETA 2824-2
Store Price: $12.95

 

Reversing Wheel ETA 2824-2
21 and 25 Jewel
Store Price: $11.95

 

Standard Grade ETA 2824-2 Timed and Regulated Balance with Stud
Store Price: $32.95

 

 

those prices are quite good!   I paid the mainspring alone $22 from my supply house and there were only three of them left.

As for the timed and regulated balance complete. $32?  That is good too! Over a year ago, I could only buy it online in India which came in a yellow type of plastic box $45 plus $20 delivery! Just over double you quoted!  But this came with an incabloc, so I can’t be too choosy!  Lots of people are making Easy money and not just Rolex associated

[automatico]

"Those prices are quite good!"

 

Yes they are but there are three catches I failed to mention: 

1...The prices do not include shipping/handling, around $15 to $18 USD.  Orders over $200 are shipped free.

2...You need to have an ST account.  Sometimes this can be a hassle.

3...I have read that they do not like to ship out of the USA...UK, EU, Aus etc.

 

I bought a few genuine parts from India with good luck, one being a like new 3135 winding rotor for $13.50 delivered. The pictures on eBay were good so I took a chance on it.  It was listed as:  "Vintage Rolex Mechanical Watch Part, Unsorted Caliber" 

 

Used rotors are going from $60 to $125 or so on eBay and there is a used complete 3135 A/W assembly from India 'BIN' for $150 plus $18 for shipping,  eBay item number  124332929601  A fair price but a long way off if you need to send it back.  Might be good for a 3135 clone if it will fit, I have never seen a 3135 clone up close.

New 3135 A/W assemblies are going for around $400 on eBay.  

 

[Timelord]

18 hours ago, automatico said:

"Those prices are quite good!"

 

Yes they are but there are three catches I failed to mention: 

1...The prices do not include shipping/handling, around $15 to $18 USD.  Orders over $200 are shipped free.

2...You need to have an ST account.  Sometimes this can be a hassle.

3...I have read that they do not like to ship out of the USA...UK, EU, Aus etc.

  

 

thanks!!
now I don't feel as bad for having paid what I thought was too much!  I thought it was too good to be true as I do not score any points on any of those 3 catches!  It is strike 3 and out for me😳