1655 question...

[automatico]

Just for fun...does anyone know the ID and OD of a genuine 1655 bezel?

 

I have three replica bezels and each one is a different size:

1...30.20mm ID   37.55mm OD    2.78mm tall

2...30.32mm ID   37.38mm OD    2.55mm tall

3...30.18mm ID   37.60mm OD    2.80mm tall

 

 I've tried three different aftmkt crystals and all three are different ID and OD.  The watch has the 30.32mm/37.38mm bezel on it now with the closest fitting crystal of the three...from Cas-Ker a long time ago, 

I tried a crystal from ST and the ID was too small, one from Sternkreuz was way too loose (might have been a 135C in wrong package), and a new one from C-K was too small to go over the case neck without cracking.  No idea who made any of the crystals but the ST and new C-K crystals are exactly the same.

 

I may end up cutting one of the bezels to fit the crystal when I find the right one.  I always try to get three so I'll have spares and since the one on the watch is an oldie and not the same as current stock it will be hard to match.  Clark has them for $8.25 but shipping is $4.25 and if they do not combine shipping it would be too much $$ just for a trial fit.

I have a genuine 116 but it is sealed in a plastic bag and I do not want to open it.

 

I measured the OD of the case neck and wrote it down along with the OD of the crystals mounted on the case but can not find the note.  Story of my life.   

 

[RickFlorida]

crystals and bezels are such a pain the ass to settle.  So I have a MQ vietnam 5513 that is supposed to fit as genuine. It sure does for my Rolex movemement, the Rolex casing screws, Rolex case tube.  Everything there fits perfect.  However, I use a Clarks aftermarket bezel, retaining ring, and tension washer.   I can't get any tropic 19 crystals to fit except for one of the GS.   The really popular one and I get it from Otto Frei. There are 2 or 3 different sized tropic 19's from GS brand alone!  I have tried many other crystals all except for the German Sternkruz or however you spell it.  But I've never been able to get a single damn other cyrstal to fit.  They are too tight or too loose. But I suspect it's the Clark aftermarket bezel kit I have that is the problem.  I had to sand down the inside of the retaining ring or it was still too tight on the crystal and would crack it. I have that sorted out now but I can't turn my bezel.  With the tension washer on, it's too tight!  

[Dan71]

@Automatico which base watch do you have ?

i just build a 1655 with BP Base watch and inside is engraved  1675  😞

a vietnam gen spec bezel misure between 30.20mm and 30.30 circa my mechanical caliper is not so good 

 

the stock plexi was to big for this bezel so today i shaved the outer diameter of the plexi with sand paper 1200 an now work with the vietnam bezel.

 

i have bought a 116 steirnutz (below pic with misure ) or whatever the name is for a better cyclope , when it will arrive a try it and write here.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Dan71

[automatico]

"Automatico which base watch do you have ?"

 

Dan71

Thanks for responding!

 

I have no idea where the case came from originally because I bought it from an RWG member in December 2014.  It is close to genuine spec (going by a Phong 1655 case) except for the dial being a couple tenths mm too big.  The case neck might be a hair too big too but one or two of the generic 116 crystals I had worked fine on the case...but the bezel was either too loose or too tight on all of them and the 30.32mm ID bezel is on it now.  I will probably go with what you did and sand the OD of the crystal down a little so the bezel will not crack the crystal.  I may also need to sand a slight taper on the inside sharp edge of the crystal skirt so it will not shave a sliver of plastic off.  I've had a few shave plastic off and end up between the bezel and case if I do not see it.

 

"I just build a 1655 with BP Base watch and inside is engraved 1675." 

 

Far as I know the two main differences in a 1675 and 1655 are the GMT mid case is a little bit thinner and the crown guards are shaped differently...maybe because of the 6mm crown on the 1655 vs the 5.3mm crown on the 1675.

I tried a Sternkreuz crystal on the watch but it was not a good fit.  The crystal I ended up using came in a package with no useful identification and it fits the case neck but the bezel is not quite tight enough.  Besides that, the crystal was old and the supply house may have a different supplier by now.  If I can find some crystals that fit the case neck and the 30.32mm ID bezel is still too big, I'll machine the ID of one of my other bezels to fit.

 

Next time I have the bezel and crystal off I'll write the case neck size down and not lose it.  I am going to order a straight second hand for the watch so the crystal and bezel will be off sooner or later.  I found some sweep second hands with long 1.8mm tubes so they should work.

 

I will post any updates in this thread.

[Dan71]

With sweep second hand do you mean straight without circle ?
But for what movement eta ?

Which GMt hand do you have ?

I have order the tiger set for my 2813 gmt movement but I don’t like the gmt hand is too short .

I want a gmt hand that almost touch the rehaut like gen .

The only gmt hand with this length is phong 190usd or MQ 300 usd for the 4 hands kit for 1575.
Too much ! and i have to adapt the gmt to 2mm hole and also the other hands

WSO have 1655 hands for 1575 but the pics I’m not sure are for the real gmt hand they sold and are not able to give me a serious reply, on the pic on eBay the tip is short like the tiger

I will try to add to the tiger some resin for add 1mm or less to the tip abs than cover with correct color

Or

I will try to file down the stock BP gmt hand that is correct for the length but too fat tip and on the neck of the base triangle , how make rolojack on his watch but only on the neck (see pic below blue arrows) I want to file down also the tip (red arrow)

[automatico]

"With (which) sweep second hand do you mean straight without circle ?
But for what movement eta ?"

 

Straight without circle.

The movement is a genuine rlx 1570/75 with a 'shortcut' GMT conversion...details are in the rolex sticky, page 2:

Building an MBW Sub + 'shortcut' rlx 1560/70 GMT conversions... - The Rolex Area - RWG

 

The center wheel, canon pinion, hour and 24H wheels are genuine rlx GMT parts.

The center sweep second wheels/posts are the same for all rlx 15xx movements so the sweep second hand tube is longer for date movements and longer than date tubes for GMT movements.  The tube needs to be at least 1.5mm long with a .20mm opening for a GMT...hard to find because of the long tube and small tube ID.

 

Esslinger has some straight SS hands with long tubes so that is probably what I will get.  The tail of the hand is tapered and genuine rlx have straight, even sides so they may need sanding down a bit.

 

Watch Hand Refills Regular, Medium and Long Post Style Sweep Second Hand (esslinger.com)

 

 

"Which GMT hand do you have ?"

 

It is an 'OEM spec' aftmkt hand and it fits Ok after it was broached to fit...the ID was a hair too small, mostly paint.  Do not know where it came from, it was included with the shortcut kit.  The tip comes pretty close to the center of the outer 24H markers on the dial.  My aftmkt dial is too big in diameter and the dial opening in the case is also bigger than OEM so the outer markers are not right on the edge of the dial opening like genuine but maybe .3 or .4mm away compared to genuine.  A genuine spec dial is too small in diameter and just barely hangs in the dial window.

A genuine 1655 dial is 27.3mm in diameter, this one is .5mm too big more of less.

Genuine rlx 15xx hands:

H hand  1.20mm

M hand .80mm

SS hand .20mm

GMT hand 1.80mm

Do not know about ETA 24H hands.  Could the 24H hand for a 2893 GMT movement be the same as a 24H hand for a china ETA 2836 GMT conversion?  That's a good question.

 

 

"WSO have 1655 hands for 1575 but the pics I’m not sure are for the real gmt hand they sold and are not able to give me a serious reply, on the pic on eBay the tip is short like the tiger."

 

The holes should be rlx 15xx spec and the same length as genuine but always remember:  "With WSO, you never know."  

I noticed their hand sets for rlx 1655 appear to be silver or gray and genuine hands are black.  

 

 

"I will try to file down the stock BP gmt hand that is correct for the length but too fat tip and on the neck of the base triangle , how make rolojack on his watch but only on the neck (see pic below blue arrows) I want to file down also the tip (red arrow).

 

I have sanded a few hands down on the sides with extra fine paper folded over a narrow piece of flat metal but it was nerve wracking.  Things go wrong...the lume can crack/fall out, the hand can get bent, and paint can chip.  

Hands, dials, and hairsprings give me the willies.   

[Dan71]

Automatico

please when you have time a pic of your hands..

[Dan71]

@Automatico

 

just arrived the sternkreuz XS 302.450 for rolex 116 and fit better than the stock BP, i mean the plexi inside diameter stick perfectly the rehaut,  is impossible rotate it when placed over the rehault.

 

but the external diameter of this plexi is like the BP stock , a little too big for my Vietnam bezel, maybe i can push it down  (with a plastic tube self-made tool)  but sure it crack..so i prefer to shave down it a little .

 

perhaps is my vietnam bezel that don't is gen spec..

but my bezel MK3 (pic with stock plexi)  is similar to the phong and MQ i think  the same supplier 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Dan71

[automatico]

"Just arrived the sternkreuz XS 302.450 for rolex 116 and fit better than the stock BP, i mean the plexi inside diameter stick perfectly the rehaut,  is impossible rotate it when placed over the rehault."

 

I guess I tried 6 or 7 crystals on my '1655' and only two or three felt right on the case neck, much like you describe.

 

"but the external diameter of this plexi is like the BP stock , a little too big for my Vietnam bezel, maybe i can push it down  (with a plastic tube self-made tool)  but sure it crack..so i prefer to shave down it a little."

 

Probably the best fix.

It is similar to what I ran into.  One crystal cracked because the bezel was too small or the crystal was too big OD and the crystal that is on it now fits Ok on the case but the bezel was not very tight when pressing it down over the crystal.

 

"perhaps is my vietnam bezel that don't is gen spec..

but my bezel MK3 (pic with stock plexi)  is similar to the phong and MQ i think  the same supplier" 

 

What I will probably end up doing is to find 2 or 3 crystals exactly alike that fit the '1655' case and then machine the ID of one of the bezels to be a good fit over the crystal.  I have a couple Sternkreuz 28.9/30.2 but they were not as good a fit as the one I ended up using...but I only had one that fits and the bezel is not tight enough. 

Catch 22.

 

I had a similar problem with a rolex 1003 (made first quarter 1964).  I finished it in 2014...original cal 1560, Yuki 'explorer' dial, ST hands, generic #11 crystal (basically a 25-12 with rounded top edges), and a new smooth bezel from a 34mm 'tooter' case kit.  Everything went Ok but when I checked it a couple years ago the crystal was 'crazed' with micro cracks all over it so I removed the bezel and put a new crystal on the case that I got later...2017 or 2018. 

 

No go.  The bezel would not fit down over the new crystal without cracking the crystal.  Same brand of crystal from the same supply house, same bezel. 

Q...What is going on?

A...Even though the crystals are supposedly the same (packaging, brand, supply house etc) they came from different manufacturers or were made to a slightly different spec.

 

Since I have 3 or 4 of the exact same #11 crystals, the best fix (for me) is to machine the bezel to fit.  Otoh I would be sticking my neck out if I only had one crystal that would fit because I might not be able to find another one if needed.

This has happened to me a few times on projects like this.  Genuine parts generally fit fine but now they cost too much to experiment with.

 

Catch 22 = a problematic situation for which the only solution is denied by a circumstance inherent in the problem.

Merriam-Webster

 

[Dan71]

I understand sometime is frustrating you have all gen spec parts and they don’t fit :-(

I’m also had enlarge the inside of a Clark bezel assembly (the retain ring) on a cartel 1680 to fit a Clark plexi that was too big or maybe was only the jkf rehaut that was too big, mystery ..

But now for this 1655 bezel that I have paid an higher price is a pity shave it down , better shave a 10€ plexi..

And I will try to polish it for reduce the white of the plexi that come out after you shaved it with sand paper .

[automatico]

"And I will try to polish it for reduce the white of the plexi that come out after you shaved it with sand paper."

 

You might start with 1000, then 1500, and finish with 2000 sandpaper.  Try to use 'wet or dry' type sandpaper and do the sanding under a small stream of running water to carry the plastic dust and sandpaper grit away.

I usually finish up with Simichrome or Wenol polishing paste on a soft rag.  Both are good for polishing small scratches out of crystal tops too.

 

Milan should have Simichrome and/or Wenol at car care or motorcycle shops.

My first 'real' motorcycle was a black 1964 Ducati 250 Monza...$695 USD brand new.

 

Ducati 250 GT / 250 Monza (1964-67) technical specifications (moto-data.net)

[Dan71]

I use a IOSSO for polish great product

Really a Ducati ?

My dad (now 83years old) in the 60s had this Ducati 250 Diana ..


With many parts chromed to clean and polish




https://www.moto-data.net/ducati/250-diana-mark-3-1962-1964


Here below with another nice Gilera with Garda Lake landscape (Italy obviously) almost a James dean ..see the handmade shoes loafer suede in blue :-)

[automatico]

"My dad (now 83 years old) in the 60s had this Ducati 250 Diana."

 

I remember the 250 Diana..it was about $100 more than the Monza and I did not have the $$.

I had the 250 Monza first, next a blue/silver 250 Scrambler, a red 200 Sebring, and a black 450 Scrambler. 

1966 Ducati 250 Scrambler - National Motorcycle Museum (nationalmcmuseum.org)

 

Ducati 200 Sebring...'rare' today, not many sold in the USA.

Ducati 906 Paso

Cagiva Alazurra 650

 

Cagiva Alazzurra 650 (motorcyclespecs.co.za)

 

I worked in a shop in the 1960s while in high school that sold Norton/AJS/Velocette/Matchless/Moto Guzzi/Ducati plus a few others and went to the area distributor a few times where I met Jim and Ken Hayes, AMA road racers.  I was just a kid but guys like that were heroes back then to a young motorcycle nut and I got to eyeball their single cylinder Norton Manx road racer.  The Manx won a lot of road races in the 1950s/1960s.  I had Ken Hayes' autograph on a Norton brochure but lost it over the years. 

Norton Manx  The 350cc and 500cc models looked exactly alike.

No kick starter...they were 'run and bump'...you took off running then jumped on the seat letting the clutch out at the same time.

 

You can read about Jim and Ken Hayes under '250 AMATEUR/EXPERT 100-MILE' at:

A.M.A. Dayton A Nationals | Cycle World | JUNE 1965

 

Worked in a Ducati/Husqvarna shop in the late 1980s when the Ducati 750 Paso came out along with the Paso 906 in 1989, and I got to ride them.  My last 'Ducati' was really a 'Fake Ducati'...a Cagiva Alazurra 650 made by Ducati with a smaller belt drive cam desmo V twin engine.  I never rode it but sold it to the Dennis Carpenter Museum in Charlotte NC...'nos' never started.

 

Went to a Ducati factory update course at the AMI M/C training facility at Daytona one year during Bike Week and the Ducati course lasted most of the day. 

Later in the afternoon we had the Husqvarna session. 

The instructor said:

First, carefully inspect and clean all engine parts.

Next, find what is wrong and correct it if possible.

Last, put all the parts in a five gallon bucket along with the cases, gaskets etc, put the lid on the bucket, then shake the living hell out of it because that is as good as it will ever get.

Why did he say that?

Because Ducati had just purchased the Husqvarna Motorcycle Division from Electrolux in Sweden and when he went to Sweden to inspect the machine tools used to make the motorcycles, he discovered that all the machine tools were so badly worn out that you needed the Swedish machine operator go with it because only he/she could make it work.

I always liked Husqvarnas.  I have a Husqvarna lawnmower.  

 

A modern Husqvarna...made in India.

 

Here’s a closer look at Husqvarna Motorcycles’ Indian lineup (yourstory.com)

 

Still have my personally signed 8 by 10 inch glossy photo of Evel Knievel doing a wheelie on his H-D.  It's been hanging in the garage 40+ years and the signature is almost faded away.  He was a real character to say the least and I'll never forget meeting him.

 

[Dan71]

A lot of passion here , I’m not so expert so I can’t really appreciate all of your tale..

I know only that my father still today talk about his old Ducati 200 elite or sport He don’t remember exactly ..

He talk that they lower the handlebars for a sport posture they put a tartan blanket over the tank for lean the body over .
They attached leather fringe to the seat.
Trouser with the same fringe and stud .

I think was a kind of rockers sure not a mods

Here some sample:

His first motorcycle
Moto Guzzi - Guzzino 63cc or 73cc but that tuning to 100km /h









Here my little contribution my first motorcycle 1978circa
Italjet 50cc

[automatico]

Thanks for the pics! 

A short trip back in time.  

 

 

 

[Dan71]

Go back on 1655 topic

Yesterday I add tiger hands .

I attach a little piece of paper to the tip of the gmt hand for extend about 0.5mm the total Length now is 13.5 from the center hole to the tip .

Is a pain in the ass this little mod
But
Now is gen like almost touch the rehaut

[automatico]

From 5-26-2021:

"Which GMT hand do you have ?"

 

It is an 'OEM spec' aftmkt hand and it fits Ok after it was broached to fit...the ID was a hair too small, mostly paint.  Do not know where it came from, it was included with the shortcut kit.  The tip comes pretty close to the center of the outer 24H markers on the dial.

 

 

6-10-2021

I looked at my 'shortcut 1655' again just now and the 24H hand tip does reach about halfway or maybe a bit more than halfway past the the center of the small outer markers.

Keep in mind my dial and dial opening in the case are about .3mm bigger than OEM and the outer markers do not reach all the way to the edge of the case.

Imho a few tenths of a mm difference in 24H hands does not matter.

 

Here is a genuine 1655 with a shorter 24H hand: 

 

Here is one with a longer 24H hand: 

[Dan71]

So do you mean that the gmt hand over the time change the length of the tip gmt hand ?
Maybe the service gmt hand was different from the earlier?

[automatico]

"So do you mean that the gmt hand over the time change the length of the tip gmt hand ?"

 

Yes.  It probably depends on the supplier and which batch of hands any given 24H hand came from.  RWC was not overly concerned with small details back when these watches were made like we are today. 

[Dan71]

My 1655 attempt with low budget

Also for the Vietnam bezel is necessary shave down the cartel and also the gen spec plexi sternutz or whatever the name is ..

[automatico]

"My 1655 attempt with low budget."

 

It does not look low budget to me. 

 

My 'shortcut' 1655 is also low budget except for the movement.  The watch I started out with had a DG 3804 in it.  It was oem spec inside the case and I already had most of the movement parts so the project took off from there.

First time I tried the 1575 movement in the cartel case it would not slip into the case but a day or two later I tried again and it went right in.  I did not have the movement level the first time and it stuck in the case.

"Also for the Vietnam bezel is necessary shave down the cartel and also the gen spec plexi sternutz or whatever the name is..."

 

I will probably end up using an aftmkt crystal that fits the case neck properly and polish the OD of the crystal down so the 'too tight' bezel will slip down over it.  I have a few crystals that fit this description and I will mount them on an empty case and sand and polish the OD down to fit.  I mount an empty case in a lathe with the crystal pushed down over the case neck and sand/polish it while it spins.  The crystals almost always fit the case neck tight enough to stay on but if the crystal is too loose on the case neck, I can put a piece of watch paper between the case neck and crystal to tighten it up a little bit so it will not come off.

I decided sanding the crystal OD down is easier and better than machining the ID of the bezel.  Rule #22:  "Make the part fit the watch, not the other way around."  Ha!

 

I have a Phong '1655' case and there is really not much difference at all between the two cases except the cartel case has the slightly oversize dial and dial opening in the case...and the very good engraving on the Phong case.  All I did to the cartel case is clean out the case tube threads, put a new case tube in it, drill the lug holes out, and change the crystal/bezel.  The crystal that came on it did not suit me so I changed it out and got in a mess matching the crystal/bezel set to fit.

 

From a previous post:

"I just build a 1655 with BP Base watch and inside is engraved 1675."

 

I have an Abay '1655' from 15+ years ago and it has '1680' between the lugs and inside the case back.  It also uses a 127 spec crystal, 26.5mm dial, and has too much space around the 6mm crown.  Back then they used any case that was handy.

Most of them came with new swiss ETA 2836 and non adjustable china 24 hour conversions.  Two of mine had new ETAs and one had a used ETA. 

All the sapphire GMT II I got back then had new swiss ETA 2836 with non adjustable china 24H conversions.  The GMT cases were properly sized and laser signed.  'Replica Classics'  Ha!