Have to always remove balance to get movement working?

[Timelord]

Hello guys 

I just  serviced an older 2783 which I was going to use in one of the explorer cases and it has been running really well for q good 24 hours!  Also very accurate. 
 

 I noticed that when I shake it to wind the automatic, the movement stops after a couple of hours!  I then opened it up to see what the issue was and noticed that balance wheel did not oscillate!  I remove the balance bridge to reset it and presto it fired  back upto the way it was running!  
 

At first I thought that I may not have  tightened the balance bridge screw down enough making pallet bridge out from  impulse  !  
 

It ran well for another 24  hours until I gave it  a few gentle shakes to get it wound!  This time it stopped  some 6 hours later after having kept it in the same stationary position all that time!    Again I had to reposition the balance to get it gin
 

is this a new curve in my learning experience of watch repairs? Maybe out of my forte/ as an amateur.  Please chime in with any suggestions, ideas, insults or whatever can get me  to try to find out what is happening!  My many many thanks! 

[kidcreole]

I assume there's still power in the system once the movement stops as resetting the hairsping gets it going again. Therefore we can assume escape wheel back is healthy?

 

I'd be inspecting the hairspring and pallet fork pivots along with their jewels. Also the pallet fork end that contacts the impulse jewel and banking pins.

 

Most importantly when it is in fault state wiggle the hairspring and pallet fork it may give extrta clues what's going on. The shake is likely dislodging something in that area.

[freddy333]

Presuming the entire movement is clean/properly oiled/demagnetized -- it sounds like either the cap jewels are dirty/worn (remove/inspect/clean/oil), the balance cock/bridge is not properly seated or the hairspring is hanging-up on an adjacent component (ie when the movement is moved/shaken).

If/when you eliminate the 1st 2 issues, I would remove the balance, remove the hairspring from the staff (use a small screwdriver to slide the hairspring collet off the staff) -- then re-attach the loose hairspring to the cock/bridge & allow it to sit on top of the cock/bridge. Inspect the hairspring's positioning for flatness/proper centering over the cock/bridge (if the collet does not naturally sit directly over the cap jewel holder in the cock/bridge, you will need to reshape the hairspring so that it does). There is a good guide on TZ that you may find helpful.

 

Correct as needed or post a few macros of the hairspring  (attached to & sitting on top of the cock/bridge) so I can see its condition/position.

[Timelord]

On 1/29/2024 at 12:16 AM, kidcreole said:

I assume there's still power in the system once the movement stops as resetting the hairsping gets it going again. Therefore we can assume escape wheel back is healthy?

 

I'd be inspecting the hairspring and pallet fork pivots along with their jewels. Also the pallet fork end that contacts the impulse jewel and banking pins.

 

Most importantly when it is in fault state wiggle the hairspring and pallet fork it may give extrta clues what's going on. The shake is likely dislodging something in that area.

 

On 1/29/2024 at 5:03 AM, freddy333 said:

Presuming the entire movement is clean/properly oiled/demagnetized -- it sounds like either the cap jewels are dirty/worn (remove/inspect/clean/oil), the balance [censored]/bridge is not properly seated or the hairspring is hanging-up on an adjacent component (ie when the movement is moved/shaken).

If/when you eliminate the 1st 2 issues, I would remove the balance, remove the hairspring from the staff (use a small screwdriver to slide the hairspring collet off the staff) -- then re-attach the loose hairspring to the [censored]/bridge & allow it to sit on top of the [censored]/bridge. Inspect the hairspring's positioning for flatness/proper centering over the [censored]/bridge (if the collet does not naturally sit directly over the cap jewel holder in the [censored]/bridge, you will need to reshape the hairspring so that it does). There is a good guide on TZ that you may find helpful.

 

Correct as needed or post a few macros of the hairspring  (attached to & sitting on top of the [censored]/bridge) so I can see its condition/position.

Gentlemen,

thank you for your input!   I have purposely delayed my response to buy more time for further observations!  The movement has been cleaned twice and the cap jewels have also been oiled with the right amount of oil for both top and bottom of the staff pivots!  There is plenty of power in mainspring , Checked the pallet stones and pallet fork including the impulse jewel!  All appears  good!  The pallet fork looks sharp and unscathed! The escape wheel freely  spins with rest of gear train very nicely with pallet out!    I even checked the roller table to make sure it wasn’t pressed in!

 

The balance bridge is sitting flat and  balance  wheel  is paralel to  hairspring  motion with no play or wobbles!  .

 

My original suspicion was the pallet stones as I had been worried that I may have left the pallet fork in cleaning fluid for too long , but it was engaging well and flush with the  escape wheel teeth!

it has been running nicely for a good 30 hours even after several  severe shakes!  

 

However, what  I did  notice is that as soon as I have lightly shaken the watch to get as many winds as possible, you can hear a slip  in mainspring,  almost feeling as watch has unwound!  It is a few hours after this that the impulse jewel  falls outside the balance fork. Or presumably that is what it feels like,  this is my real suspicion.  

 

 

On 1/29/2024 at 5:03 AM, freddy333 said:

 

)There is a good guide on TZ that you may find helpful.

 

 Yes I have seen that post!  I believe the OP was asking about swapping balance wheels  on two different bridges  of the same caliber where he wanted the good spring on the bridge with the incabloc  instead of the bridge having  the kif spring!  I don’t think he ever got his question understood  

[freddy333]

18 hours ago, Timelord said:

However, what  I did  notice is that as soon as I have lightly shaken the watch to get as many winds as possible, you can hear a slip  in mainspring,  almost feeling as watch has unwound!  It is a few hours after this that the impulse jewel  falls outside the balance fork. Or presumably that is what it feels like,  this is my real suspicion.  

If the mainspring is slipping, then most likely either the spring is slipping on the mainspring arbor, the click or click spring may be loose or defective, or the escape wheel is slipping past the pallets. If you left the pallets in cleaning fluid too long, it is possible they may have shifted out of position, which could result in the escape wheel slipping -- & intermittently unwinding the mainspring as this occurs.
Unfortunately, I know of only 3 ways to verify this type of problem -- replace the pallets with a new (or known good) set, put the movement on a timer with recorder for 24 hours & watch for telltale signs of slippage in the readout (eg, a sudden & significant drop in an otherwise regular pattern), or sit & watch the movement until it slips & see if you can see where it is slipping.

Since this is a 2783, I think the easiest avenue would be to replace the pallets since they are not expensive (here is a new 1 on ebay for $12).

[freddy333]

I am assuming you did this early on, but have you checked for damaged/missing teeth on any of the wheels in the train?

The mainspring would likely slip once per revolution of the offending wheel. This is something that should be easy to spot with a 24-hour timer record.

[Timelord]

21 hours ago, freddy333 said:

If the mainspring is slipping, then most likely either the spring is slipping on the mainspring arbor, the click or click spring may be loose or defective, or the escape wheel is slipping past the pallets. 

I am inclined to agree that you may have just about nailed it!  I was contemplating on the click and the escape wheel!  The movement ran 24 hours really well on a close to full manual wind ( just with enough turns of the crown to avoid the slip) without the automatic assembly .  
 

As soon as I wound it fully with an extra couple of turns, it stopped just a few hours later !  I then jiggled the balance and seemed as it had locked as if  Impulse jewel had misaligned, but  I then realised it wasn’t the case !   I noticed that it had  just enough swing to slightly rock the pallet fork as balance wheel was swinging very rapidly backwards and forth with no real action! I then jiggled the escape wheel with a fine oiler and bingo it fired uo!  So my guess is that the impulse jewel never got out of line at all  as if it were the case, then the movement would not have run! Right? Unless there is something I do not know about impulse jewels and the balance wheel/pallet fork combo!

 

Your other information has indirectly  helped me solve an issue with two other movements which had me baffled for months if not close to years!  Great suggestions and highly appreciated!  Something you would not get on some watchmaking forums! A world of thanks!
 

 

[horologist]

This thread is gold!  I haven’t posted in quite a while, but I have still been lurking as most of the questions on this forum have great answers and this one is one thread that is no exception!    

I also had a similar problem with a Felsa 692 automatic movement ( which is one of the first bidynator  automatic  mvts, -the first that winds in both directions, often also found In some of the high end brands like the vintage Breitlings , Ulysses Nardin and Angelus to  mention a few).  I did not post my issue here as it has nothing to do with replica watches and did not want to sway from forum rules! I now have some direction with this problem!  Great movement!   Unfortunately this movement has too many wheels including the barrel under the same bridge , making it a nightmare to align all wheels in their respective pivots!  The mainspring  is made up of  2 pieces  which I have no idea o how it is installed- another story!,,

 

One of my replica explorer has a genuine 2836 with date mechanism removed and it also kept stopping as the mainspring would not wind !  It kept slipping  after a few turns!  I changed the barrel with a new one with new  mainspring installed and same story!  Yesterday, after seeing this thread,  I pulled it out after it was collecting dust since 2014 and checked to see if any of the wheels have missing teeth etc.  have ruled that out! Now I am now  going to go with  a new barrel bridge with the click and click spring and see  if this solves the problem!  

 

As Timelord has implied, you would rarely get this sort of deep rooted horological education in some of he mainstream watchmaking courses!  It not only helps build unique replicas, but also helps trouble shoot problems in other non replica related timepieces! Will not  start mentioning names in case I miss some,  but there are a lot of unsung horological geniuses here!  Kudos to you! All!!!