Would You Wear A Po Black With A Suite

[Pugwash]

Again, I'm sorry Pug; you're simply not correct here.

While I commend you on your excellent response (no, that's not sarcasm), I do believe that etiquette is an artificial construct that is designed purely to stop people from killing each other, and that as civilisation advances it becomes, like religion, superfluous to our survival as a species. I don't think it's obsolete just yet, but I do believe with the increase in virtual meetings and second-generation rich hippies, the frivolities will show an active decrease over the next generation.

Much like captive monkeys[1], we cling to traditions that no longer serve us as a species.

[1] You have five monkeys in a cage. A bunch of bananas is suspended from the ceiling, a ladder underneath it. One hungry monkey approaches the ladder with a clear intent to get a banana. As soon as it touches the ladder, you turn on the hose and douse all the monkeys with very cold water. In a little while, another monkey attempts to get a banana. Again, cold water for everybody. Turn off the water. When a third monkey, nearly faint with hunger, tries to get a banana, the others will grab it and hold it back, because they don’t want another cold shower. Now, remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. As soon as it sees the bananas, it will try to go for them. The others will viciously attack it. After the third attempt, the rookie will realize that it cannot have a banana. Now, replace another one of the original monkeys with a new one. As soon as it reaches for a banana, it will get attacked by all the others, including the rapidly learning rookie #1, who will be as enthusiastic as the rest of them, if not more so. And so, after you have gradually replaced all the monkeys, the cage will contain five monkeys who have never had a cold shower but who will not allow anyone to get a banana. Why? Because that’s the way things are done around here.

[SportsterRider]

Just for a laugh, I trawled a pile of state dinner photos (for some reason, lots of Reagan era ones) and saw a plethora of watches on the wrists of dignitaries and guests.

I did the same thing and saw the same things. For men, a watch isn't solely about keeping time. It's jewelry. Matter of fact, I'd day that today, with cell phones, Blackberry's, etc, that a watch is MORE jewelry and LESS a timekeeping device than it ever was in the past.

But to each their own. I sincerely doubt that too many people are going to be offended by wearing a watch to a dinner party, but if they are I'll keep my sleeve over my watch!

SR

[Ethan]

I do believe that etiquette is an artificial construct

Totally agree with you. There's all kinds of sh*t that's completely pointless that nonetheless finds its way into our lives in the guise of dress and etiquette. Take the cumberbund, for example. When you strap this ridiculous-looking thing on, do the pleats point up? Or down? They point up. Why? Because it's from a time when your tails-jacket did not have an inner pocket, and the pleats conveniently held your opera tickets... Like, are you f*ckin' kidding me?

There are parts of my business existence that I like, and parts I don't. I like some of the etiquette, because I'm a sucker for traditions (I grew up an inner-city kid, and we didn't have any). But the Brioni, or the Ferarri, or the West Palm villa? Gimme a break. That's how I found my way here. There's sh*t I'll pay for, and sh*t I won't. I'd rather donate ten grand to WSPA than spend it on a watch. But in my world these things aren't just expected, they're required. Such is life.

Like you, Pug, I too look forward to a day when what you wear and where you wear it is ONLY about what feels and looks good. Can't it get here while I'm still young?

[fotoman]

NO; I would not.

You certainly can if you like, but if you care at all about business etiquette, the dress calls for a watch with a leather strap. Business casual has gone too casual, and the metal watch with a suit is too pervasive these days. If you're middle-management, or will be spending your day with subordinates, then go ahead and wear your PO, sub, Navi - whatever. But if you're sitting with the EC or are in a closing, wearing a metal watch with your suit simply indicates that you don't know any better.

Um, ok - well, i deal with the owners of multi million and some billion dollar businesses on a daily basis. Folks with a net worth of more than 100 million. Governors senators congress persons

and we had bill richardson gov of new mexico and candidate for president of the US. was recently at my partner's house for lunch.-

The PO works in all occassions.

as for leather - that is just why don't you go tell all your buddies to slap the leather bands on the rolex cause SS is just not formal enough!! Especially those Tacky Presidential bands

?

[Ethan]

Um, ok - well, i deal with the owners of multi million and some billion dollar businesses on a daily basis. Folks with a net worth of more than 100 million. Governors senators congress persons

and we had bill richardson gov of new mexico and candidate for president of the US. was recently at my partner's house for lunch.-

as for leather - that is just why don't you go tell all your buddies to slap the leather bands on the rolex cause SS is just not formal enough!! Especially those Tacky Presidential bands

?

With that vocab? Yeah, okay - sure. You win. Let me ask you this; in this dream of yours, were there any talking pumpkins or dancing fish?

[slowlearner]

OK, the thing is that if I was regularly running with the executive board crowd, the last thing I would do is show up at any function wearing a replica anything. I am a lowly engineer (albeit a lowly engineer with my own company) so I see lots of guys who think a Fossil is a high-end watch. I also own a Ferrari, so I get to spend some time with captains of industry or at least guys who think they are captains of industry. And they really don't care what kind of watch you wear, other than maybe a cursory glance to see if you "fit in" with their crowd. They usually don't know [censored] about watches beyond the brand. If it says Rolex, Omega, or Tag Heuer on the face then you're good to go.

[TeeJay]

To go off topic for a second... I am quite happy to take people at their word that they hold the positions in business that they do, but, taking this into account, I am curious why people with such salaries would purchase rep watches rather than gen watches.

Is it because you feel that the genuine watches are simply not worth their pricetag, and that the reps are 'better value for money'? This is certainly how I feel about watches, and I'm no high-powered exec (yet )

I would agree entirely with Ethan that there are codes and conventions with clothing, and, just because many people do not know about them, that does not mean they exist.

Would I wear a black Planet Ocean with a suit? Yes, I would. However, it would be on a leather bracelet, not SS or resin. As or what James Bond wears, I am also a huge Bond fan (that is how I first became interested in watches) but Bond is little more than a thug in a tux, not an example of perfect business-dress. Infact, that's probably why he would wear an SS bracelet with a suit, as a way of putting two fingers up to the accepted conventions.

[section8]

Wow, this thread blew up. Glad I'm in IT Consulting and not some big executive, so I don't have to worry about the ettiquette of what watch to wear to a client meeting

[Ethan]

OK, the thing is that if I was regularly running with the executive board crowd, the last thing I would do is show up at any function wearing a replica anything. I am a lowly engineer (albeit a lowly engineer with my own company) so I see lots of guys who think a Fossil is a high-end watch. I also own a Ferrari, so I get to spend some time with captains of industry or at least guys who think they are captains of industry. And they really don't care what kind of watch you wear, other than maybe a cursory glance to see if you "fit in" with their crowd. They usually don't know [censored] about watches beyond the brand. If it says Rolex, Omega, or Tag Heuer on the face then you're good to go.

Jesus...

This is exactly why I was hesitant to post in the first place; no good deed goes unpunished, or so the saying goes... Really and truly, I was just trying to help, and now it's turned into a chest-puffing, I-know-more-than-you, my-d*ck-is-bigger-than-yours BULLSH*T waste of time.

If the above is your experience, phoband and slowlearner - fine. Super. That's great.

We are DEFINITELY not spending time in the same circles.

[eddhead]

It's I who am sorry Pug; still a no-go. I was waiting for the whole Bond-sub-Omega-thing to pop up as an example (as it invariably does in these situations). The funny thing about Bond in a tuxedo with a watch (and a metal one, at that), is that it is improper etiquette to wear ANY watch with a dinner jacket (or tuxedo, or tails). Semi-formal (tux or dinner jacket) and formal (tails) are to be worn at State functions or high-festivities; you are to be unconcerned with the time, because you're having such a good time. The wearing of a watch is rude to the host, as what you're saying is that you (at some point) have somewhere better to be. Either that, or you are at someone else's beck-and-call, and are required to wear a watch so that they do not have to. Either way, it's a faux-pas. With Bond it's okay, because he needs to use it as a laser, or garrote, or keep an eye on what time something's going to blow up. For him, it's practical. For you, it's just plain rude.

Great. Super. Good for you. If your boss comes in tomorrow with a balloon on his head, does that make it acceptable? As I said, if he's the manager, and you're the minion, then it's just barely acceptable. But with the Board? No chance.

Look guys; style is an ever-changing subject, and it's open to interpretation by anyone. But the fact of the matter is until we're all wearing plastic-wrap to the office, there are established protocols for business dress. And I for one like 'em. They're part of our traditions, and I hate to lose our traditions. I'm sure that there's a whole bundle of etiquette about who can wear a kilt, in which occasions, in what tartan - and all the accompanying accessories. I have no idea what those protocols are, but I know they're there; they're part of tradition. Is Fat Bastard the arbiter now of Scottish dress?

I'm a Bond FANATIC, but there's no way the Wardrobe Mistress employed to dress the actor in the movies is going to subvert business etiquette and tell me how to dress.

Period.

minion? that is pretty insulting actually.. and no, i am not a minion.

what exactly is your information source? I think Phoband makes an excellent point.. how is a diamond rolex presidential anything but a dress watch?

[fotoman]

With that vocab? Yeah, okay - sure. You win. Let me ask you this; in this dream of yours, were there any talking pumpkins or dancing fish?

Never doubt the Pho!

Don't worry - its all in good fun

seriously if i was going to make it up, i would have picked hillary or obama, not someone who just wants to be VP and is polling at 3%

[Ethan]

minion? that is pretty insulting actually..

You know what? It is insulting, and starkly out-of-place in a thread about etiquette.

I apologise, eddhead.

[SportsterRider]

Jesus...

This is exactly why I was hesitant to post in the first place; no good deed goes unpunished, or so the saying goes... Really and truly, I was just trying to help, and now it's turned into a chest-puffing, I-know-more-than-you, my-d*ck-is-bigger-than-yours BULLSH*T waste of time.

If the above is your experience, phoband and slowlearner - fine. Super. That's great.

We are DEFINITELY not spending time in the same circles.

I would be curious to know what you are basing your opinions on? Is there an online reference to any of this?

Also, if your willing, could you post your thoughts in a guide form? For instance:

1) For formal gatherings relating to work, the following is considered appropriate

* Casual dress - steel watch

* Formal dress - gold or steel watch on a strap

It's interesting reading that reminds me of watching old movies. Overcoats and top hats were once very essential parts of fashion. I had no idea there were/are dress codes out there relating to what watch to wear.

SR

[fotoman]

here is what i can't stand

Why does tying a piece of silk around my neck make me look any better or change my knowledge on a subject or show "proper respect"

is it respectful cause i took the time to tie it? or cause i spent money onit?

[slowlearner]

Jesus...

This is exactly why I was hesitant to post in the first place; no good deed goes unpunished, or so the saying goes... Really and truly, I was just trying to help, and now it's turned into a chest-puffing, I-know-more-than-you, my-d*ck-is-bigger-than-yours BULLSH*T waste of time.

If the above is your experience, phoband and slowlearner - fine. Super. That's great.

We are DEFINITELY not spending time in the same circles.

Please, sir, get off your high horse. We understand how special you are.

I think you misunderstood. My intent was to confirm what you had said, that the majority in many economic and social strata don't know the rules of etiquette. I guess I should have made that point more explicitly. Also I accept that I am a heathen for wearing a metal watch band with a suit.

Good day.

[Ethan]

I would be curious to know what you are basing your opinions on? Is there an online reference to any of this?

Sadly, reference material on this subject is growing rarer and rarer... As you can see from this thread, there are few who care anymore in the 'screw-you-I'm-too-proud-to-learn' generation. To answer your question, I have an extensive library, and two of the subjects that I collect on are etiquette and dress. I also studied the psychology of dress as part of one of my Masters' degrees.

Also, if your willing, could you post your thoughts in a guide form?

You know, I was planning on doing that soon. I was going to put together a By-Tor/Pugwash-style guide on business dress and watches, and include photos of each example for a situation in which you might find yourself. I had planned to use only my reps, and only un-modded reps at that (the exception being the straps, which I ALWAYS replace with custom straps from Aaron) to illustrate how well they could serve in a discriminating corporate environment; watches available to everyone regardless of budget. I was going to include the underlying psychological statements that are made by such simple things as what watch is chosen for a given interaction, and what the color of your suit/tie/shirt/shoes says about you to the people with whom you are interacting. I'd include a little about the psychology of colour as well, as it pertains to your clothes. I though it might be interesting to the members, and would satisfy my need to 'give back' to RWGII; after all, as member number 65, I've been here enjoying the boards for a while...

But after seeing the response from this thread, I am not so sure that that is such a good idea after all. I don't really feel like having to defend my position over and over again in a thread I'd create just to help out - and intend to be informative and fun - to a bunch of folks that feel the need to peacock by attacking me. It'd be like if the response to By-Tor's guides were, "Oh yeah? Well I have a friend who knows everything about watches, and he says Omegas SUCK". Can you imagine?

Sad, really...

[Pugwash]

With that vocab? Yeah, okay - sure. You win.

How come no-one ever picks on my English?

is it respectful cause i took the time to tie it? or cause i spent money onit?

It's respectful of the rules of the game. You get points for that.

What we're at odds with here is the difference between Style and Etiquette. From a style point-of-view, a stainless steel Planet Ocean with a classy suit works. From an etiquette point-of-view, it would depend more on the occasion than the suit.

There's no point in arguing with the ettiquetier that your taste is better than his as that's simply not the debate. Just like there's no point in telling a Hugo Boss salesman that he shouldn't be wearing that watch in his shop.

[fotoman]

How come no-one ever picks on my English?

It's respectful of the rules of the game. You get points for that.

What we're at odds with here is the difference between Style and Etiquette. From a style point-of-view, a stainless steel Planet Ocean with a classy suit works. From an etiquette point-of-view, it would depend more on the occasion than the suit.

There's no point in arguing with the ettiquetier that your taste is better than his as that's simply not the debate. Just like there's no point in telling a Hugo Boss salesman that he shouldn't be wearing that watch in his shop.

You know whats interesting that we haven't brought up is the etiquette by country. Clearly in most countries in central africa it would be fine to wear a SS strap

i didn't know about France or England or east timor

[SportsterRider]

But after seeing the response from this thread, I am not so sure that that is such a good idea after all. I don't really feel like having to defend my position over and over again in a thread I'd create just to help out - and intend to be informative and fun - to a bunch of folks that feel the need to peacock by attacking me. It'd be like if the response to By-Tor's guides were, "Oh yeah? Well I have a friend who knows everything about watches, and he says Omegas SUCK". Can you imagine?

Sad, really...

Well, in topics that have some roots in opinion, there are bound to be differences which will spark disagreement. But this is also a contribution, whether it's pleasant all the time or not. That, along with what you post, would be a GREAT addition to this board IMNSHO.

I can't be the only one who would appreciate your efforts here. If you're looking to contribute to the board, this would be a fantastic way to do it!

SR

[yt74]

James Bond in Casino Royale wears a SS Seamaster in a dinner jacket. Sorry, but that trumps any old rules we may have had up until then.

Agreed, there is nothing wrong with it.

[Guest avitt]

Ethan,

Pay no mind to these ruffians.

BTW, are you hiring?

[TeeJay]

Agreed, there is nothing wrong with it.

As I pointed out yesterday...:

As for what James Bond wears, I am also a huge Bond fan (that is how I first became interested in watches) but Bond is little more than a thug in a tux, not an example of perfect business-dress. Infact, that's probably why he would wear an SS bracelet with a suit, as a way of putting two fingers up to the accepted conventions.

Ethan, I would certainly find a guide on what to wear in what situation very informative and helpfull. At present, my sense of coordination means matching my shoes and belt, and if possible, my watch strap (or face) to those colors. Eg black shoes and belt - Black strap or black dial on SS. Brown shoes and belt - Brown strap or black dial on SS (Steve McQueen style )

All joking asside, I would certainly find it an interesting topic, even though being self-employed, my clothes tend to run to jeans and sweaters, however, I'm sure there are others here with Corporate SallaryMan jobs who would be able to put that advice into practice far more than I could (I just like to wear the right thing at the right time)

[Ethan]

Ethan, I would certainly find a guide on what to wear in what situation very informative and helpfull.

Ethan,

Pay no mind to these ruffians. BTW, are you hiring?

If you're looking to contribute to the board, this would be a fantastic way to do it!

Many thanks for your support Gents; I'll put it together and get it up here.

What we're at odds with here is the difference between Style and Etiquette. From a style point-of-view, a stainless steel Planet Ocean with a classy suit works. From an etiquette point-of-view, it would depend more on the occasion than the suit.

That's absolutely correct Pug. You hit the nail right on the head.

While Etiquette is specifically what I was talking about, the specifics of Style do tie-in to an underlying psychology and hidden language (much as Body Language does) that applies in ALL situations, business or not; I suppose that it simply has a more tangible effect in the boardroom than it does at a barbeque... For example, I feel much differently about a guy who shows up to a barbeque in a casual linen shirt, cargo or Bermuda shorts, plain brown slip-on sandals, and a big, loud TT blue sub, than I do about the same guy with the same watch in a big navy suit and French cuff shirt in my boardroom. What the guy at the barbeque is saying to me with his clothes is that his TT sub is not a precious work of art, and he's cool wearing it casually. Because the rest of his dress is understated, he let's the watch show for what it is; beautiful. The guy in the boardroom, however, is telling me that he's either arrogant, insecure, clueless, or all of the above. The watch is just too much, and will likely compete with the rest of his outfit. In a boardroom, I shouldn't be paying attention to his watch (that's not the point of the meeting), I should be paying attention to what he's saying.

There's an old adage in business that goes something like, "After the meeting, no one should be able to recall the specifics of what you were wearing at all, only that you were extremely well-appointed, clean, neat, and conversed with poise and confidence".

You know whats interesting that we haven't brought up is the etiquette by country. Clearly in most countries in central africa it would be fine to wear a SS strap

Great point! I should specify that I am referring to European business etiquette as it is applied in the general global business community. Certainly, I have colleagues who are devout Muslims who do not shake my hand; I don't consider that rude at all. Nor would I consider a Sikh rude for wearing his turban at my dinner table. Each is a tradition, and should be preserved as well.

[Ethan]

BTW, are you hiring?

Actually, we are in the process of hiring someone you all know and respect from the board. A stand up guy. But it's his private business and he'll make it public if he feels like it.

It can't hurt to send a resume avitt

[dak244]

Actually, we are in the process of hiring someone you all know and respect from the board. A stand up guy. But it's his private business and he'll make it public if he feels like it.

It can't hurt to send a resume avitt

Ethan - I myself don't give a sh*t about your outdated, overly conservative fashion advice. If I want to wear my PO with a suit, I'm going to wear my damn PO with a suit, and thats that. No one will care, say anything, or do anything about it (except for fashion policia, like yourself). I agree with pug, that fashion etiquitte, like everything else in this world, becomes outdated... So honestly, save the GQ fashion advice for the Paneristi boards....

P.S. What does etiquette say about wearing replica watches?????