Pugwash Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Ok, so we could have been getting movements like this for a while...? I suspect that this is a result of the recent ETA shortage. Sure, we could have been getting movements before, but I think we'd have noticed. The shortage isn't artificial and it's not going away, so I suspect this will happen more and more. It's up to our dealers to deal with this and it's amusing that it may be safer to buy the new breed of Asian 21j copy movements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 I suspect that this is a result of the recent ETA shortage. Sure, we could have been getting movements before, but I think we'd have noticed. The shortage isn't artificial and it's not going away, so I suspect this will happen more and more. It's up to our dealers to deal with this and it's amusing that it may be safer to buy the new breed of Asian 21j copy movements. One rotten apple doesn't necessarily mean pending doom for the trade but I agree, the unlimited supply of ETA movements available to us in this golden age will come to an end. I don't see why, having copied the 7750, the Chinese couldn't come up with a servicable reliable 2836 or 2824 25 jewel clone. What we're seeing right now are some pretty compromised substitutes but when the market demands, I think our friends will come up with the goods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 I don't see why, having copied the 7750, the Chinese couldn't come up with a servicable reliable 2836 or 2824 25 jewel clone. They have. See The Zigmeister's review of it ... Coupled with the Valgranges copy in TTK's Chopard GTXL, we're in for a great run of Chinese movements, I reckon. The reason they didn't show up before is that everyone wanted ETAs in quantity. Now that option is disappearing, the good clones are getting ramped up, possibly even from the same assembly lines ebauching the 2836/24 today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 There a numerous "factories" for movements as well, it's the only way I can explain the differences in the Asian movements I see. The number of permutations and variations I see in identical movement models (7750 for example) continues to astound me. I am not talking about slight variations, but totally different movements, some with more, some with less jewels than others etc... As for the watches themselves, many identical looking models, once taken apart, are totally different,...case design, pushers, spacer ring material and type, crystals, etc... the more I see, the more I am convinced that there is nothing the same anymore. As for the "Surplus" movements from ETA, this is not something new, it's been like this for a long time, as long as I can remember. Some movements are newer, but I would say a large percentage of those sent in for service are surplus and used. Not sure if I see these used ones more due to the fact they tend to fail, or give the owners problems, or if it's just an indication of how many are actually out there. There is no question in my mind that these are all surplus movements, some just happen to be "new" surplus, and others are "used" surplus. But surplus they are, no one is going to pay $200 for a factory sealed ETA 2836-2, not in a $188 rollie... It would be interesting to take say 10 reps of a certain model, all bought at the same time from the same dealer, and examine each one in detail, I bet the variation in movement quality would run from "pristine" to "well used"... This particular one here, after the mainspring and barrel replacement, quit running after an hour...took the balance and pallet out, double checked everything, re-assembled, and it was still working this morning...let's hope it continues to run, if it doesn't, there is only one fix, replace the complete movement. It's clean, oiled, adjusted etc, if it won't run after this, it's all worn out and not repairable. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob1 Posted March 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Thanks for those interesting comments Rob (although your final paragraph is a bit worrying ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Thanks for those interesting comments Rob (although your final paragraph is a bit worrying ) I'll let you know if there are any problems on email. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 I'll let you know if there are any problems on email. RG Thanks to Pugs for a head's up to your March 3 review of the 2824 clone. I have not been to your review section for a while. Sounds like this is an almost perfect copy, perhaps made on the same machinery. I'm sure this is going to show up in just about every 2824 watch if it isn't already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob1 Posted March 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 I'll let you know if there are any problems on email. RG Thanks. Just out of interest, how much would a new eta 2824-2 movement be (assuming these are possible to buy on the retail market)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Thanks. Just out of interest, how much would a new eta 2824-2 movement be (assuming these are possible to buy on the retail market)? My experience with this identical situation in the past, the dealer replaced the movement with a new one, and sent it to my location for installation. This has been done many times, but it all depends on the dealer in question...you may want to request a replacement movement to avoid any problems down the road. If that doesn't work, I have sources for this movement, so far they have all been surplus, but new surplus, not worn out. I think my supplier is in the $120 range for this model, some other suppliers (Cousins in the UK) may sell for less. Try the dealer first, as long as they dont' want it returned to their watchmaker instead of replacing the movement (especially now that it's been lumed etc...) Rg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob1 Posted March 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 My experience with this identical situation in the past, the dealer replaced the movement with a new one, and sent it to my location for installation. This has been done many times, but it all depends on the dealer in question...you may want to request a replacement movement to avoid any problems down the road. If that doesn't work, I have sources for this movement, so far they have all been surplus, but new surplus, not worn out. I think my supplier is in the $120 range for this model, some other suppliers (Cousins in the UK) may sell for less. Try the dealer first, as long as they dont' want it returned to their watchmaker instead of replacing the movement (especially now that it's been lumed etc...) Rg Thanks, I've just emailed you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertk Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Hmmmm..............maybe it's best to get the less expensive asian movement copies. They're gonna be new. Let me see. New asian copy vs. used Swiss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Let me see. New asian copy vs. used Swiss? Asian copy. You can be 99% sure it's serviced. Rob, what nick was the 2824 copy in when you got it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWR Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 They have. See The Zigmeister's review of it ... Coupled with the Valgranges copy in TTK's Chopard GTXL, we're in for a great run of Chinese movements, I reckon. The reason they didn't show up before is that everyone wanted ETAs in quantity. Now that option is disappearing, the good clones are getting ramped up, possibly even from the same assembly lines ebauching the 2836/24 today. Are we sure that it's a Valgranges copy, rotor shape aside? It looks an awful lot like the rotor bearing assembly from several seagull models... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Asian copy. You can be 99% sure it's serviced. Rob, what nick was the 2824 copy in when you got it? It was clean, sort of oiled, but not worn out anywhere that I could tell...looked like a new ETA without the markings. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob1 Posted March 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Just to bring this thread up to date I can now report on the outcome of discussion with the dealer. After replacing the mainspring barrel and giving the movement a full service, The Zigmeister reported that the watch was running well so I'm happy for him to return it to me and I hope that it will run well for some time to come. I bought this watch from Puretime and when The Zigmeister told about the problem I emailed Angus to explain the situation. He apologised and said that the problem was out of his control as it was not possible for him to inspect each watch he sells (in this case it was only by disassembling the movement that it became clear it was previously used). I agree with Angus, and I think this situation is part of the deal when you buy reps. Angus offered to exchange the watch if I wanted to send it back to him, but I declined this as I had already paid for The Zigmeister to relume it. I have therefore agreed with Angus that he makes a contribution to the cost of the servicing of the movement, and will use that credit to offset the cost of the next watch I buy. Overall I'm happy with the outcome, although it has opened my eyes a little it more to the world of replica watches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pix Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Fair agreement, happy ending... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob1 Posted March 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Fair agreement, happy ending... Yes I think so. The one thing which I have learned from this situation is the value of a good watchsmith for those replicas that you really care about. Without The Zigmeister's expertise I think that I would have just been frustrated by this watch is it would have continued to keep very poor time and probably would have had a relatively short life before grinding to a halt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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