RWG Technical Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 And let's not forget, Ziggy likes Josh, as he has bought various watches from Josh in the past That is true, and in the same tone, I would never ever misrepresent anything to the members here, I report what I see, and comment on what I think. It may not please everyone, but I stay neutral and have no loyalty except to myself, and the members here who need to know what they are buying. If the "Clone 2824" that I serviced was a POS, I would have said so, the fact it's a genuine Swiss SW200 movement is great, but it should be identified as such, after all, that's what it is - a SW200... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diggs Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Received uPO45 from Josh two days ago described in his website as 2824-2. Ratchets in both directions, winds in one direction. Because of things kicking off elsewhere in this and other fora, and the distinct possibility of certain watches being passed off as having one type of movement when what they have bears no relation to the description whatsoever, I am sure that there are owners of ultimate Planet Oceans who ordered and paid for it to have an ETA2824 movement who may now be thinking that they wouldn't know if the watch actually had the Asian movement described by certain dealers as 2824-2 (which bears little resemblance to the real 2824 and is actually much closer in design to typical cheap Asian movements we are used to in reps, which I will explain shortly). Well, here is how to tell without having to remove the caseback. Unscrew the crown and hand-wind the watch a little. If your movement is ETA then the winder will ratchet in both directions as you would expect. If your movement is the Asian the winder will ratchet in one direction only and spin freely the other. I discovered this yesterday when I was asked to check over a uPO 'lite' an acquaintance had bought from one of our cartel dealers (despite my misgivings....). Externally the watch is identical in almost every detail to my ETA uPO, the only visual difference being the date font, but without something to compare it to most buyers will not be able to rely conclusively on that as a tell. Notwithstanding the fact that this person paid only $17 less for his watch than I paid a non-cartel dealer for mine, this little discovery about the operation of this movement makes me call into question its description as a 2824-2. Now, I haven't heard of anyone being mis-sold an Asian uPO as an ETA and no-one has yet reported such a thing in the forum, so I present this information purely so that owners can put their mind at rest. However, I think it opens up another issue about movement representation in general by the cartel dealers who we already know will mis-name a product to make it more appealing. It does not function the same way as a 2824 except insofar as it has the same beat, but to suggest that this justifies the description is a bit like suggesting that because an articulated lorry has the same horsepower as a Ferrari then they are the same. This movement looks and feels like a faster beat version of the DG2813 I just bought to replace the dead movement in PAW - it even carries the same markings (WO under the balance wheel). Take a look. Here is a stock photo of the DG2813 from the people I bought it from... and the uPO lite movement.... Ignore the shape of the rotor (which has been clearly cut to mimic the shape of the ETA rotor) and look at all the other details. This Asian movement described as 2824 looks nothing like the 'Asian 2824' The Zigmeister did a breakdown of (which IMO deserves to carry the number 2824). This movement is a Miyota copy ie. a copy of a Japanese Citizen movement, but that doesn't sound nearly as nice as the completely false 'Asia copy ETA' description now, does it?!! Don't get me wrong - it's a half way decent movement, but it ain't what they are saying it is. Not even close.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cskent69 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 The one in your picture is an ETA. The one in the first post is identified as a "CLONE 2824", which it is not, it's a DG something or other, not a SW200, which is the Clone 2824. Don't even get me started on the Lemania 1874 copy, or the Unitas movements...why can't they just get it right, it's not that hard to do... RG Thanks Rob. I get it. So if I purchase this from a dealer - and send to you for service - as i do with every watch that i purchase - and this is not in there - then they will have done a swaparoo. It is not a case of misprepresentation - it would be a case of outfight fraud. At least the watch is being represented correctly. Thanks for the clarification. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jomama Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 OK now I am getting [censored]. I got a U. PO from Josh a month ago and looks great, works great. But I counted on it being the movement advertised. But based on what you are describing, the movement is a cheap Miyota COPY. How long will thios thing last? I am assuming the picture on his site (the one I believe you used to start thread) is the one in my watch. I also am assuming upon closer inspection it is the cheap Miyota. In otherwords, the picture is accurate representation on movement but the description as 2982-2 (Asian ETA copy) is not. Oopps. I guess when this one craps out I will have to ask someone how to replace movement and which one and how to get.....What a hassle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jomama Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I have a rolex caseback opener but not sure how to open Omega UPO back. Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jomama Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I am all confused now. Sorry for my ignorance. But this is a picture of the movement in the PO from one of our dealers. Are we saying that this is not an ETA? It has 2824 engraved in it. Or are we saying that the watch does not actually come with this in it - and someone does a swaparoo? Update: Thank heavens for ducktape. I purshased U.PO from Josh a month ago. I took off back and the picture above is the movement I have in my watch (exactly). I now feel better that I have a good ETA clone in mine. As for the winding test, when I am in winding mode and move crown clockwise, I feel resistance, then when moved counterclockwise I hear ratchet noise but feel no resistance. What does all this tell me????? F*$% if I know. Maybe sometimes ignorance is bliss : ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Son of a Biach! They are cutting the rotors the same. You know that was always the first thing I would look at and just by the shape of the rotor I could tell which movement was contained in the watch. Now I see that you even need to look harder at the movement itself. It is not that it is hard to tell the difference -- ONCE YOU KNOW WHAT TO LOOK FOR! A great many enthusiasts are going to get caught with this one. /Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsy Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Just bust off the back of my 45m PO lite, and it clearly has this shitty copy and not an ETA copy as advertised, not happy!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omega1 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Ok, I think some wrong wording on r11co Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jomama Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 OK. First of all I think the author of the thread got a bunch of members' panties in a bundle for no reason. It appears the dealer he is referring to is Josh (since the pics he references are the perfect clone pics). It also was thought by me that he was saying that the ULTIMATE POs by this dealer were cheap fakes which could be identified by the action of crown winding. Since this expaination was convoluted, I took the back off my Ultimate PO from Josh I got one month ago and it was the movement advertised (EXACTLY as pictured above in large pic). This watch cost $238 plus shipping. Was the target of his thread strictly the PO lite watches described as asian 2824-2? If so, very well. Based on my research on my ultimate, it has the movement as described by seller. Now there are members opening their 45 PO lites to see what's in theirs. It was described as an ASIAN COPY 2824-2. I am assuming the rest of the watch is identical to the ultimate (braclet, case, face, etc). If I bought a watch for $128, do I really expect the movement to be the same or as good as that in the same watch that sells for $238? I hope not. It was never described as an ETA (unless 2824-2 automatically assumes ETA which may be). What am I missing? I am not trying to be a smartass I am just trying to cut through all the movemnt "code" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pollux1 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Could someone please help me here, I bought an Ultimate PO from one of the "cartel" dealers just before Christmas at a cost of $258 including delivery. When I pull out the crown tube to the first position, just before the quick set date function, the rotor ratchets counter-clockwise but spins freely in the clockwise direction, is this correct for the SWISS ETA 2824 THAT I PAID FOR, or have I been royally shafted? *edit* Just to add, my hearing is not 100 %, but on listening closely, I can hear a quiet clicking sound when the rotor is wound clockwise. Please if anyone can tell me if i have the ETA movement i paid for or not, i'd be eternally grateful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivia Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 (edited) Question for The Zigmeister. I just re-read your post http://www.rwg.cc/members/Movement-review-...OPY-t22000.html is this the one you are referring to? If so, it seems to me that you did not identify this movement as a Selita(?). Maybe I am looking at the wrong review. In any case, how do you identify a Selita movement; what are the markings for Selita? Edited March 30, 2007 by olivia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Let me put in my imput into this topic. From my experience in working on movements, here are the results: ETA movement - when you wind the watch (clockwise or upwards) you should feel resistence. If you wind the crown anti-clockwise or downwards, you should hear continuous click - and there should be a little, very little resistence - but NOT spin freely. I would assume the ETA clone (not the cheap asian copy) should display similar results. The asian movements, from what I remmeber, if wind anti-clockwise or downwards, should spin freely - most often silently - no clicks. Unfortunately, I don't have any asian movements with me so I can't tell you accurately - but I remember all of my Seiko watches, when wind anti-clockwise, spun freely - no clicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omega1 Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 The asian movements, from what I remmeber, if wind anti-clockwise or downwards, should spin freely - most often silently - no clicks. Unfortunately, I don't have any asian movements with me so I can't tell you accurately........ I do! And after you pointed that out, it would seem that my interpretation of r11co Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pollux1 Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 @marrickvilleboy and omega-1 thankyou both for taking the time to explain things, and put my mind at rest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam1174 Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Am am totally confused, and I'm not smart enough tro figure this out. Here is a picture of my movement. I paid for an ETA 2824. Is that what I got? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omega1 Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Am am totally confused, and I'm not smart enough tro figure this out. Here is a picture of my movement. I paid for an ETA 2824. Is that what I got? That is either an ETA 2824, or an SW200. To tell for sure, you need to look for the stamping below the balance wheel. Should be stamped 2824 like this one: If it is not stamped, then it may be the SW200 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam1174 Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 OK... mine has the 2824 stamped on it. I bought it from wo-mart about 3 weeks ago. Thanks for the quick answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakie360 Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 im glad you got what was advertised to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 If memory serves me well, the Copy 2824 Selita movement was bought from River. I am not certain of this 100%, but it was not a set up by any of the dealers here. It was River's Sub LV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r11co Posted March 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Was the target of his thread strictly the PO lite watches described as asian 2824-2? If so, very well. Based on my research on my ultimate, it has the movement as described by seller. Now there are members opening their 45 PO lites to see what's in theirs. It was described as an ASIAN COPY 2824-2. I am assuming the rest of the watch is identical to the ultimate (braclet, case, face, etc). If I bought a watch for $128, do I really expect the movement to be the same or as good as that in the same watch that sells for $238? I hope not. It was never described as an ETA (unless 2824-2 automatically assumes ETA which may be). What am I missing? I am not trying to be a smartass I am just trying to cut through all the movemnt "code" The movement in the Asian uPO bears no resemblance to the ETA2824 design. The movement has its own industry recognised designation - DG8413M. The movement is of the same grade found in, say, the 'Noobmariner' or the less expensive Asian versions of the Omega Seamaster reps. These are also examples of watches that exist in two forms - ETA and Asian ('21J'). The difference though is that the Asian movement versions of these watches come in at the $90-$110 price mark. OK, so the movement is being misrepresented, but the watch is less expensive, so what's the problem? Well, why mis-name it unless it means you can justify a $30 markup on similar watches?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Thanks Rob. I get it. So if I purchase this from a dealer - and send to you for service - as i do with every watch that i purchase - and this is not in there - then they will have done a swaparoo. It is not a case of misprepresentation - it would be a case of outfight fraud. If you send it to me, put in your letter as always what I am to do and look for, and I will let you know what I find. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Question for Ziggy. I just re-read your post http://www.rwg.cc/members/Movement-review-...OPY-t22000.html is this the one you are referring to? If so, it seems to me that you did not identify this movement as a Selita(?). Maybe I am looking at the wrong review. In any case, how do you identify a Selita movement; what are the markings for Selita? I did not identify that movement in that review as a SW Sellita, because it's not one and it's not a copy of one... The movement in that review looks identical to a ETA 2824-2, without any markings. The SW200 Sellita 2824-2 copy, is totally different on many area's, is marked "SW200" under the balance etc... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivia Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 (edited) I did not identify that movement in that review as a SW Sellita, because it's not one and it's not a copy of one... The movement in that review looks identical to a ETA 2824-2, without any markings. The SW200 Sellita 2824-2 copy, is totally different on many area's, is marked "SW200" under the balance etc... RG Thanks, The Zigmeister. I was confused by your statement above " My review of the movement labled "Clone or Asian 2824" was from a Submariner. It was sold as having this "Clone" movement in it, and it was the Selita SW 200 model. " Been trying to find a picture of thi Selita movement. Edited March 30, 2007 by olivia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
who Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Is THIS the one you are looking for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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